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Jmpasq
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5/19/2012  3:40 PM
Knixkik wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:I thought the next sentence was going to be "All we need is a miracle."

A miracle would be the NBA allowing for us to have Lins Bird rights.If we dont get those u can kiss any chance of winning down the drain

You are missing the point. Why are our chances down the drain? We just need to find more Lin's and Novak's in the second round of the draft, overseas, and on the FA list. Look above at the Spurs role players. None of them are big money, high profile players. This is how we have to operate and why we still have a great shot.


But Tim Duncan is a Hall of Fame 7 Footer and the stars, role players fit properly together. We have a great defensive 7 footer with no Offensive game. We have the softest Power Forward in the NBA, and a SF that needs the ball in his hand every possession or he cant function. We need a lot more then just more role players. We need Iman Shumpert to become an All Star and Lin to become Steve Nash. The Knicks arent a piece here or there away
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nixluva
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5/19/2012  4:03 PM
Jmpasq wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:I thought the next sentence was going to be "All we need is a miracle."

A miracle would be the NBA allowing for us to have Lins Bird rights.If we dont get those u can kiss any chance of winning down the drain

You are missing the point. Why are our chances down the drain? We just need to find more Lin's and Novak's in the second round of the draft, overseas, and on the FA list. Look above at the Spurs role players. None of them are big money, high profile players. This is how we have to operate and why we still have a great shot.


But Tim Duncan is a Hall of Fame 7 Footer and the stars, role players fit properly together. We have a great defensive 7 footer with no Offensive game. We have the softest Power Forward in the NBA, and a SF that needs the ball in his hand every possession or he cant function. We need a lot more then just more role players. We need Iman Shumpert to become an All Star and Lin to become Steve Nash. The Knicks arent a piece here or there away

You're actually making the point that we are just a piece or 2 away! Lin showed a lot of promise for a kid that was thrust into a tough spot. He can only get better at his decision making. I expect a more confident and physically stronger Lin next year. Shump will have a long road to recovery, but he already started to show some improvement in his game over the course of his rookie season. He hopefully will fully recover and I suspect he'll be a bit better just from knowing what to expect and being more mentally prepared. I don't know if he'll be able to put in the work he needs on his shot and driving but we'll see.

The key is gonna be in who else they add to the mix. I feel pretty good about the starting 5 in terms of the strength we have in that unit, even tho it didn't always look smooth, but remember the Lin, Shump, STAT, Melo & Tyson unit barely played together this year. We never really got to see how good they could get once they had a chance to gel.
RonRon
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5/19/2012  4:33 PM
nixluva wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:I thought the next sentence was going to be "All we need is a miracle."

A miracle would be the NBA allowing for us to have Lins Bird rights.If we dont get those u can kiss any chance of winning down the drain

You are missing the point. Why are our chances down the drain? We just need to find more Lin's and Novak's in the second round of the draft, overseas, and on the FA list. Look above at the Spurs role players. None of them are big money, high profile players. This is how we have to operate and why we still have a great shot.


But Tim Duncan is a Hall of Fame 7 Footer and the stars, role players fit properly together. We have a great defensive 7 footer with no Offensive game. We have the softest Power Forward in the NBA, and a SF that needs the ball in his hand every possession or he cant function. We need a lot more then just more role players. We need Iman Shumpert to become an All Star and Lin to become Steve Nash. The Knicks arent a piece here or there away

You're actually making the point that we are just a piece or 2 away! Lin showed a lot of promise for a kid that was thrust into a tough spot. He can only get better at his decision making. I expect a more confident and physically stronger Lin next year. Shump will have a long road to recovery, but he already started to show some improvement in his game over the course of his rookie season. He hopefully will fully recover and I suspect he'll be a bit better just from knowing what to expect and being more mentally prepared. I don't know if he'll be able to put in the work he needs on his shot and driving but we'll see.

The key is gonna be in who else they add to the mix. I feel pretty good about the starting 5 in terms of the strength we have in that unit, even tho it didn't always look smooth, but remember the Lin, Shump, STAT, Melo & Tyson unit barely played together this year. We never really got to see how good they could get once they had a chance to gel.

remember, how you kept defending Dantoni, about not playing Lin?
A couple of us here, with me, were saying we were sick of the lack of PG play, facilitating, and by simple subtraction, he should have been given an opportunity over

Bibby
TD
Iman

when we went on multiple games of losing streaks, while getting blown out, or/and losing to teams that weren't even in competition for playoffs.
Don't get me wrong, I didn't think Lin would be as great as he was during Linsanity, but I did think he was our best option, and it was obvious we needed a player/PG
that can open the floor for us with PENETRATION, while those 3 up there just didn't have that ability to do it with their lack of ball handling, athleticism, or skill.
RonRon
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5/19/2012  4:38 PM
Knixkik wrote:We can win a title without trading Stoudemire or Melo, and without big cap space, we just need to look at what the Spurs have done. I know it's easier said then done, but they are such a dominate team (as was Dallas last season) because they found bargain role players who mesh with their core guys. Duncan, Parker, and Manu have been together as a championship quality core for a long time, but i would say that you can no longer built around those guys like before. Our core is clearly more talented and has more upside, it is all about chemistry (starting with off season/training camp) and filling the roster with the right guys. Look at the role players on the Spurs roster, their specific roles, and their salary:

Blair (F/C banger, who is tough and solid on both ends) 0.9 mil
Bonner (stretch big forward) 3.3 mil
Diaw (do-it-all role player) under 0.5 mil
Green (versatile wing, knock-down spot up shooter) 0.9 mil
Leonard (combo forward, tough, good defender, can hit open 3s) 1.7 mil
Neal (steady PG, knock-down shooter) 0.7 mil
Splitter (good center, solid in all areas, good upside) 3.7 mil
Jackson (creative scorer, good energy) 9.2 mil expiring in a year

What a team full a cheap talent. You don't need cap space to find these players, You just need late first/second round picks, and a knack for finding untapped talent. All of these players have specific areas that make them contributers, and none of them will ever be stars. They can all shoot and/or defend and/or rebound at a high level.

Good news for us? We are already doing this. Grunfield seems to have a great knack for finding talent, adding Lin and Novak for minimum deals. We just need to do more of it, starting with this offseason. We need to use our second round pick effectively, maybe trade for another one, and take advantage of free agency. We need to find that Blair, Green, and Neal-type, because they are out there. Look at the FA list for this summer, and see if some of those players can be identified. We can win a title with this team if we find the right players.

Poppavich and The Spurs organization, developed majority of these players, with exception to Diaw. Stephan Jackson, won a ring with the Spurs, as part of their 6th man role in is younger years. They didn't just sign these players to those contracts with their current skill.
They took their time, to build a philosophy, develop a role for each player, and built on that team chemistry.

We are constantly looking to trade and acquire players by over paying for them in New York, totally opposite of what The Spurs do.
Money ball for NBA is quite on the money...
nixluva
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5/19/2012  4:44 PM
RonRon wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:I thought the next sentence was going to be "All we need is a miracle."

A miracle would be the NBA allowing for us to have Lins Bird rights.If we dont get those u can kiss any chance of winning down the drain

You are missing the point. Why are our chances down the drain? We just need to find more Lin's and Novak's in the second round of the draft, overseas, and on the FA list. Look above at the Spurs role players. None of them are big money, high profile players. This is how we have to operate and why we still have a great shot.


But Tim Duncan is a Hall of Fame 7 Footer and the stars, role players fit properly together. We have a great defensive 7 footer with no Offensive game. We have the softest Power Forward in the NBA, and a SF that needs the ball in his hand every possession or he cant function. We need a lot more then just more role players. We need Iman Shumpert to become an All Star and Lin to become Steve Nash. The Knicks arent a piece here or there away

You're actually making the point that we are just a piece or 2 away! Lin showed a lot of promise for a kid that was thrust into a tough spot. He can only get better at his decision making. I expect a more confident and physically stronger Lin next year. Shump will have a long road to recovery, but he already started to show some improvement in his game over the course of his rookie season. He hopefully will fully recover and I suspect he'll be a bit better just from knowing what to expect and being more mentally prepared. I don't know if he'll be able to put in the work he needs on his shot and driving but we'll see.

The key is gonna be in who else they add to the mix. I feel pretty good about the starting 5 in terms of the strength we have in that unit, even tho it didn't always look smooth, but remember the Lin, Shump, STAT, Melo & Tyson unit barely played together this year. We never really got to see how good they could get once they had a chance to gel.

remember, how you kept defending Dantoni, about not playing Lin?
A couple of us here, with me, were saying we were sick of the lack of PG play, facilitating, and by simple subtraction, he should have been given an opportunity over

Bibby
TD
Iman

when we went on multiple games of losing streaks, while getting blown out, or/and losing to teams that weren't even in competition for playoffs.
Don't get me wrong, I didn't think Lin would be as great as he was during Linsanity, but I did think he was our best option, and it was obvious we needed a player/PG
that can open the floor for us with PENETRATION, while those 3 up there just didn't have that ability to do it with their lack of ball handling, athleticism, or skill.

Personally it's a very hard thing to say that MDA didn't do right by Lin. Lin was shaky early but I think the way he was brought along was fine. 2 or 3 more games earlier wasn't the difference in the Knicks season when it came to Lin. Remember he had a stint in the D league that even Lin admitted helped him immensely to get more comfortable with the system and so I don't thin it's as big of a deal as many make it out. I did a time line of the games and days off they had to practice from the time Lin came to the Knicks until he got his real shot and it wasn't like there were a ton of opportunities for him to get in. Do it yourself and you'll see that they had already started the season and Lin came with no Training Camp and no practice days. How could he have been ready that much sooner? You'll probably only come up with a couple more games and no way to know if he'd have been successful earlier.
yellowboy90
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5/19/2012  5:27 PM
Besides Lin I never understood why Novak didn't get any playing time earlier.
blackisblack
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5/19/2012  8:57 PM
I agree. They should keep this same group and develop them. Don't give up on them. They need to build chemistry and resolve. Always messing with the group never builds chemistry. Just a bunch of guys playing for themselves but never for the team.
tj23
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5/19/2012  11:36 PM
I must say I laughed at the possibility of Lin being any good. It's amazing how he didnt get more Playing time before
RonRon
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5/20/2012  2:38 AM
with our cap situation, in order to sign players to cheap contracts for over 1 year, it has to be with with our MLE would could be broken up.
Most of those guys, that SA has, they developed from the start, which takes time, and a good coaching/developing staff.
I would be opposed to signing multiple players with our MLE to players like

Donte Green *qualifying offer, Kings have a lot of players under contract for the same positions*
Terrence Williams UFA
Hassan Whiteside *has team options, for 2 more years*
Ryan Hollins

and possibly players that dodn't get drafted, but Odom, will probably be gone by early 2nd round at latest....

but some of these guys might have greater value than their suggested salary, because they have shown stincts of improvement.
Only the ones that haven't been able to play and continue their development would sign for those type of contracts.
And keep a good eye on players like

Mahimi *early bird rights*
Brandon Wright *team option*
JJ Hickson *same boat as Lin with waivers*
Danny Green *not sure if SA will let him go, he has been a huge success so far in their starting lineup*
Gary Neal *SA might can afford to let him go*
Omar Osik
Greg Stimensa
Hiddayi

I would rather get multiple players with a combination of these players than overpaying for someone like Camby with the full MLE

KG
Ilyasova

I feel are worth spending the FULL MLE on though

Dragic, I would feel more comfortable than Nash, given his size, I believe he can coexist with Lin together at times.
I don't think Nash can coexist with Lin, on the Knicks, because we would have too many defensive liabilities.
Knixkik
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5/20/2012  9:05 AM
RonRon wrote:with our cap situation, in order to sign players to cheap contracts for over 1 year, it has to be with with our MLE would could be broken up.
Most of those guys, that SA has, they developed from the start, which takes time, and a good coaching/developing staff.
I would be opposed to signing multiple players with our MLE to players like

Donte Green *qualifying offer, Kings have a lot of players under contract for the same positions*
Terrence Williams UFA
Hassan Whiteside *has team options, for 2 more years*
Ryan Hollins

and possibly players that dodn't get drafted, but Odom, will probably be gone by early 2nd round at latest....

but some of these guys might have greater value than their suggested salary, because they have shown stincts of improvement.
Only the ones that haven't been able to play and continue their development would sign for those type of contracts.
And keep a good eye on players like

Mahimi *early bird rights*
Brandon Wright *team option*
JJ Hickson *same boat as Lin with waivers*
Danny Green *not sure if SA will let him go, he has been a huge success so far in their starting lineup*
Gary Neal *SA might can afford to let him go*
Omar Osik
Greg Stimensa
Hiddayi

I would rather get multiple players with a combination of these players than overpaying for someone like Camby with the full MLE

KG
Ilyasova

I feel are worth spending the FULL MLE on though

Dragic, I would feel more comfortable than Nash, given his size, I believe he can coexist with Lin together at times.
I don't think Nash can coexist with Lin, on the Knicks, because we would have too many defensive liabilities.

Gary Neal would be perfect, but is he a FA? Those are the type of players we need to find. But good news is we have been doing that thru the late draft and waivers recently (Lin, Novak, Fields, Harrellson.)
RonRon
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5/20/2012  1:19 PM    LAST EDITED: 5/20/2012  5:32 PM
I believe Gary Neal and Danny Green are both early bird free agents at 2 year deals.
There a couple of nice backup PGs, on SA, all FAs, so I think they just might let Gary go.
He seems quite quick and speedy, not sure how could his play making skills, passing, penetration, and facilitating ...etc
But he certainly isn't shy about shooting during the playoffs the 3 point shot, which I think are actually bad shots.
I haven't seen him take as man bad shots with the Clippers series, but he took them in the Utah series.

So with 2 exemptions, would it be realistic to come out with 3 solid players or 1 decent player(LLE) and 3 players that have have lost value in the league type players with players that don't get drafted on draft night...

I feel we need an impact player, but this is the only way we can rebuild with some *yoots*, while there are some with low value that once had high potential.

How do you guys feel about it?
How many players do you feel are worthy of the FULL MLE, if possible, over breaking the MLE for more players?
Jmpasq
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5/20/2012  4:01 PM
Can someone tell me why we never get any breaks? Like why cant we get the Bulls without Rose or the Heat without Bosh and a busted up Wade. Of course it goes the exact opposite way with us. We lose Shump, Davis, Amare Punches a fire extinguisher
Check out My NFL Draft Prospect Videos at Youtube User Pages Jmpasq,JPdraftjedi,Jmpasqdraftjedi. www.Draftbreakdown.com
Knixkik
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5/20/2012  4:01 PM
RonRon wrote:I believe Gary Neal and Danny Green are both early free agents at 2 year deals.
There a couple of nice backup PGs, on SA, all FAs, so I think they just might let Gary go.
He seems quite quick and speedy, not sure how could his play making skills, passing, penetration, and facilitating ...etc
But he certainly isn't shy about shooting during the playoffs the 3 point shot, which I think are actually bad shots.
I haven't seen him take as man bad shots with the Clippers series, but he took them in the Utah series.

So with 2 exemptions, would it be realistic to come out with 3 solid players or 1 decent player(LLE) and 3 players that have have lost value in the league type players with players that don't get drafted on draft night...

I feel we need an impact player, but this is the only way we can rebuild with some *yoots*, while there are some with low value that once had high potential.

How do you guys feel about it?
How many players do you feel are worthy of the FULL MLE, if possible, over breaking the MLE for more players?

I would pick up neal to start at SG for us. Hes 6-4 and a great spot up shooter.
Bonn1997
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5/20/2012  4:46 PM
Jmpasq wrote:Can someone tell me why we never get any breaks? Like why cant we get the Bulls without Rose or the Heat without Bosh and a busted up Wade. Of course it goes the exact opposite way with us. We lose Shump, Davis, Amare Punches a fire extinguisher

When your starters have 45 years experience, the only breaks you get are in their bones.
RonRon
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5/20/2012  5:46 PM    LAST EDITED: 5/20/2012  5:52 PM
Knixkik wrote:
RonRon wrote:I believe Gary Neal and Danny Green are both early free agents at 2 year deals.
There a couple of nice backup PGs, on SA, all FAs, so I think they just might let Gary go.
He seems quite quick and speedy, not sure how could his play making skills, passing, penetration, and facilitating ...etc
But he certainly isn't shy about shooting during the playoffs the 3 point shot, which I think are actually bad shots.
I haven't seen him take as man bad shots with the Clippers series, but he took them in the Utah series.

So with 2 exemptions, would it be realistic to come out with 3 solid players or 1 decent player(LLE) and 3 players that have have lost value in the league type players with players that don't get drafted on draft night...

I feel we need an impact player, but this is the only way we can rebuild with some *yoots*, while there are some with low value that once had high potential.

How do you guys feel about it?
How many players do you feel are worthy of the FULL MLE, if possible, over breaking the MLE for more players?

I would pick up neal to start at SG for us. Hes 6-4 and a great spot up shooter.

it is hard to tell if he is actually good, or is it because of his team mates, playing as a 2nd unit, and if it is the Spurs roster/system that makes him good.
Also, he seems to have a scorers mentality, and I am not sure if he is a good facilitator or not.
Something, JR Smith, if he stays, we wouldn't exactly need.
But hey, there is no such thing as never having enough shooters!

I don't mind giving him around 2m per year for 3years.
But those are the type of contracts we need to give out to fill out our roster.

Maybe spending the Biannual on a big man and/or 3m left from the MLE

Mahimi
Brandon Wright
Odom
JJ Hickson
Camby *not sure if that would be enuff for him*

go after upside players that didn't fill out yet..

Donte Green
Terrence Williams
Greg Odon

It would dig in to one of our exemptions, in order to get him for sure.
I also would like to know if he is a good defender or not.
RonRon
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5/20/2012  6:37 PM
Maybe even sign and trade with some of these teams, with TD, Fields, 2nd round pick, and or the 2 2nd round draft rights.

Gaines
Delonte West
Keyon Dooling

are 3 PG's/combo guards, that play good defense, that I would like to sign as well. Gaines seems to have some speed, athleticism, and good strength for his position.
For Delonte West, I don't know if I would break up the MLE for him, or just for a 1 year veteran minimum, because of his troubled off the court issues.
But he plays solid D and can hit the 3 point shot, while he is not a great at facilitating, and passing.

Not sure what

Felton
Hinrich
Kidd
Jordan Farmer

are going all going to cost. I do not consider any of these guys as elite as Nash, where Nash should get more $ regardless of his age.
Unfortunately, Nash, will be a liability playing with Lin together, while these guys would be much better defensively.
I love Nash, but if Lin is going to part of our future, with our holes, I just think we cannot afford to go after him.

Despite that, Melo would have to resort to moving the basketball, much more frequently, and I don't think Nash would like to play with a ball stopper like Melo.
Call the Heat, Lebron and Wade, both scoring monsters, but they look to move the basketball, use their ability to penetrate, and pass it to players when they are open.
They also move the ball much more than people think or that their stats sometimes suggest.
Melo wants the highlights, he wants the glory, and honestly, I think hes jealous that Lin just came out of no where to take the attention away from him.
He doesn't mind losing if he more than him winning and having a HORRIBLE performance, like his 1point win during the season.
Knixkik
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5/20/2012  8:18 PM
RonRon wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
RonRon wrote:I believe Gary Neal and Danny Green are both early free agents at 2 year deals.
There a couple of nice backup PGs, on SA, all FAs, so I think they just might let Gary go.
He seems quite quick and speedy, not sure how could his play making skills, passing, penetration, and facilitating ...etc
But he certainly isn't shy about shooting during the playoffs the 3 point shot, which I think are actually bad shots.
I haven't seen him take as man bad shots with the Clippers series, but he took them in the Utah series.

So with 2 exemptions, would it be realistic to come out with 3 solid players or 1 decent player(LLE) and 3 players that have have lost value in the league type players with players that don't get drafted on draft night...

I feel we need an impact player, but this is the only way we can rebuild with some *yoots*, while there are some with low value that once had high potential.

How do you guys feel about it?
How many players do you feel are worthy of the FULL MLE, if possible, over breaking the MLE for more players?

I would pick up neal to start at SG for us. Hes 6-4 and a great spot up shooter.

it is hard to tell if he is actually good, or is it because of his team mates, playing as a 2nd unit, and if it is the Spurs roster/system that makes him good.
Also, he seems to have a scorers mentality, and I am not sure if he is a good facilitator or not.
Something, JR Smith, if he stays, we wouldn't exactly need.
But hey, there is no such thing as never having enough shooters!

I don't mind giving him around 2m per year for 3years.
But those are the type of contracts we need to give out to fill out our roster.

Maybe spending the Biannual on a big man and/or 3m left from the MLE

Mahimi
Brandon Wright
Odom
JJ Hickson
Camby *not sure if that would be enuff for him*

go after upside players that didn't fill out yet..

Donte Green
Terrence Williams
Greg Odon

It would dig in to one of our exemptions, in order to get him for sure.
I also would like to know if he is a good defender or not.

It is hard to tell how good he is, but it's not hard to tell he can shoot lights out.
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