Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

FoeDiddy wrote:Shumpert with no question..Faried at the end of the day is undersized and will always be a liability on defense. Shumpert helps in so many different ways and just with the eye test helps the team in so many different ways.

I'm know I'm going to take a lot of heat for this but Shumpert's shooting percentages are low enough that right now he is still a liability on offense. Look at these numbers:

League average PER: 15
Iman Shumpert: 10.8
Faried: 21.9

League average Win shares (per 48 minutes): .100
Iman shumpert: .068
Faried: .212

Now I don't think Faried is quite as good or Shumpert as bad as those stats would indicate. There aren't currently any good stats collected on man-to-man defense (Shumpert's main strength). But in the areas the stats are collected, Faried has a HUGE advantage over Shumpert.

Haha - I saw the Win Shares but I did not want to bring that up since I don't want to give a validity to WS's.

Faried had one game where he scored 27 points and had 17 rebounds in 24 minutes!!!!!

I have also been watching him play defense recently and he is quite good.

I know that there will many homer votes here but anyone who says "case closed" is not even attempting to be open minded.

You could go with the more mainstream PER or any other statistical analysis, though. They all give a gigantic advantage to Faried.

His numbers are crazy good and he has made Denver a hell of a lot better. I was watching him guard Gasol who is ssssssssoooooooo much taller and he did a fantastic job. While Gallo had far and away the worst +/- at -11 yesterday, Faried was -1.

mrKnickShot wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:It's currently a toss up. Faried is still only 6' 8".

Currently Faried has the edge based on production alone. If Shumpert returns to form and gets a jump it's no contest.

Ben Wallace was 6' 8". How tall was Barkley? 6' 4"?

What is Faried upside? Scary!

If shumpert ... if shumpert ... if shumpert - there are many if's.

So far, he seems to be much more injury prone and has many more holes in his game. Who says he will be able to improve his offensive game? And if he does, Faried is much further along offensively and can get much better with fewer "?'s".

Faried is effective in Denver's free style offense. If the Knicks had drafted him he wouldnt have looked that good. No way could we play Faried and Chandler in our front court.

mrKnickShot wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:It's currently a toss up. Faried is still only 6' 8".

Currently Faried has the edge based on production alone. If Shumpert returns to form and gets a jump it's no contest.

Ben Wallace was 6' 8". How tall was Barkley? 6' 4"?

What is Faried upside? Scary!

If shumpert ... if shumpert ... if shumpert - there are many if's.

So far, he seems to be much more injury prone and has many more holes in his game. Who says he will be able to improve his offensive game? And if he does, Faried is much further along offensively and can get much better with fewer "?'s".

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:We had a bigger need at SG than backup PF. We had a 3rd string SF(Fields) starting at SG. Walsh & Dantoni knew this. Therefore I voted Shump although I love Faried

Eh, most players stay on the same team for only 1 to 3 seasons. I'm all for getting the best player and potentially best trade asset with mid to late 1st round picks. Maybe if this is the year you can compete for a championship, then you draft entirely based on need but that applies to only 4 or 5 teams in the league.

If we were drafting out of need then PG was the far greater need. Also, they should have been reaaly nervous about Amare after last years playoffs.

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:We had a bigger need at SG than backup PF. We had a 3rd string SF(Fields) starting at SG. Walsh & Dantoni knew this. Therefore I voted Shump although I love Faried

Eh, most players stay on the same team for only 1 to 3 seasons. I'm all for getting the best player and potentially best trade asset with mid to late 1st round picks. Maybe if this is the year you can compete for a championship, then you draft entirely based on need but that applies to only 4 or 5 teams in the league.

If we were drafting out of need then PG was the far greater need. Also, they should have been reaaly nervous about Amare after last years playoffs.

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:We had Billups and at the time the plan was to bring in CP3 and for Shump to get a few PG mins. Shump was the right pick

Not sure how that establishes that Shump was the wright pick! It would have been reasonable to expect Billups and Douglas (who had a respectable season) to be quite competent backup PGs. In contrast, Amare had a major injury and we had a lot of uncertainty at both the PF and C positions.

Obviously we had a hole at C but you don't draft the next Frederic Weis just because you have a gapping hole at center. You have a much greater chance at finding an effective SG than a Center who can stay in the league for more than 3yrs. And Shumpert is more than an effective SG on both ends once he nails open shots.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/2012.html

I don't know how many times we got to go over this but there are several points to consider
Let's remember this was the draft right before the lock out and right before was mad the trade for CA, that left us without much to work with

Mike Dantoni was the Head Coach and had success when he almost had a roster that was able to execute his philosophy, without a good PG but a hungry Felton instead before was traded

Since way before the draft, Briggs was hoping we would pick Nikola Vučević, saying he was a TOP 3 pick if he entered a year later
I remember he said it would take maybe 1-2 year before he adapts to the NBA game but he is very close to a NBA body with NBA genes by both parents (Gloabal athletes)
He convinced many here that Vucevic was the man we hoped we would pick up as we needed a Center very bad

So you have to consider our roster, fit's needs, our cap at the time *which was OVER the cap and little room to improve and would be our last draft pick till 2 years later*
We not only helped Denver save over 50million in salaries but TAX penalties as well, about 80m in taxes and salaries had we swapped Curry, another salary, and picks for him
Taking back the contracts of Renaldo Balkman, Billups, Sean Williams

We were expected to somewhat contend versus The Heat/Celtics/Bulls
In order to possibly compete we would need 2 premiere Defenders, along with a Center
Dolan vetoed both Walsh/Dantoni and decided to overpay to acquire CA

Roster
===========
Both TD and Fields looked promising at the time, even so much that many though they would be part of the rotation of the SG's of our future

TD's - combo guard, that just lead the league in 3pt shot's made

Field's - had a great 1/2 career rookie year when he played with Wilson Chandler/Gallo and the SSOL but struggled after the trade was made

Billup's looked like Guard that was done, no longer able to play the traditional PG that MDA had envisioned with the team

So Iman was a combo guard that brought DEFENSE, something we would need to defend the likes of

1- Wade on Heat and another to defend Lebron *Shawnee Williams only signed a vet min contract that expired, who had a great year after the trade was made for CA*

2- Rajon/Allen/Pierce on the Celtics *one of them*

3- Derrick Rose on The Bulls

During the draft

The Amnesty did not exist yet

The players left from the prior season included
Our starting roster mainly included

Billups
Fields

CA
STAT

Turiaf *if we drafted Faried, we would be grabbing a 6-6 PF/C and asking STAT to defend the Center position with CA*

=======
bench
=======

TD
Bill Walker
Jorts
1st rounder
vet min's after to fill out roster but we couldn't make contact with FA's do to the lockout

So looking back at it, many here wanted Vucevic but was picked 1 pick before us
Some players drafted after Faried included..

Reggie Jackson
Mirotic *was expected to NOT come over, earliest 3-5 years away, IF EVER*
Jimmy Butler

Chandler Parsons

Jeremy Tyler *some people wanted to draft him instead based on his potential*
It is easy to look back at the draft and say we should have did this and this, but the truth is we never know how each player would have developed under different enviorments/coaches

I remember the GARDEN BOOED, feeling we should have taken Chris Singleton who was "ranked highest on the board by the experts"
Carmelo Anthony was upset we didn't draft his buddy, Josh Shelby, and CA tweeted his displeasures about the pick on Twitter

Had we drafted Faried, we would be looking at

Billups
Fields

CA
Faried
STAT

====
TD
Walker
Jorts

That roster would give up over 120pts each night
All of Heat, Boston, Bulls at the time had a SUPERSTAR to defend in the guard position, and that was why Iman was drafted
Along with the hopes of him possibly developing as a BIG PG, with Billups mentoring him

Also, Walsh wanted to give a PG for Dantoni to work with, who waited patiently for many years
CP3, was always on his target, until we gutted the team for CA, we got raped so bad in the trade, saving Denver 80million in tax penelaties and salaries
Well, that was the start of consisntly teams willing to make us overpay for talent as we no longer had leverage

While teams just stockpiled asset's, which we did as well, until trading them all for 1 player and junk

Our roster eventually became...

Roster Glossary · SHARE · Embed · CSV · Export · PRE · LINK · ?
No. Player Pos Ht Wt Birth Date Exp College
7 Carmelo Anthony SF 6-8 230 May 29, 1984 8 Syracuse University
32 Renaldo Balkman SF 6-8 208 July 14, 1984 5 University of South Carolina
20 Mike Bibby PG 6-1 190 May 13, 1978 13 University of Arizona
6 Tyson Chandler C 7-1 235 October 2, 1982 10
85 Baron Davis PG 6-3 209 April 13, 1979 12 University of California, Los Angeles
23 Toney Douglas PG 6-2 190 March 16, 1986 2 Florida State University
2 Landry Fields SG 6-7 210 June 27, 1988 1 Stanford University
50 Dan Gadzuric C 6-11 240 February 2, 1978 9 University of California, Los Angeles
55 Josh Harrellson PF 6-10 275 February 12, 1989 R University of Kentucky
9 Jared Jeffries PF 6-11 230 November 25, 1981 9 Indiana University
44 Jerome Jordan C 7-0 253 September 29, 1986 R University of Tulsa
17 Jeremy Lin PG 6-3 200 August 23, 1988 1 Harvard University
16 Steve Novak PF 6-10 220 June 13, 1983 5 Marquette University
21 Iman Shumpert PG 6-5 212 June 26, 1990 R Georgia Institute of Technology
8 J.R. Smith SG 6-6 220 September 9, 1985 7
1 Amar'e Stoudemire PF 6-10 245 November 16, 1982 9
5 Bill Walker SG 6-6 220 October 9, 1987 3 Kansas State University

Team and Opponent Stats Year/year calculations use per game statistics

Look at the final pick of the draft

Round Pick Player Position Nationality[n 1] Team School/club team
1 1 Kyrie Irving+ PG United States[n 2] Cleveland Cavaliers (from L.A. Clippers)[a] Duke (Fr.)
1 2 Derrick Williams SF/PF United States Minnesota Timberwolves Arizona (So.)
1 3 Enes Kanter C Turkey[n 3] Utah Jazz (from New Jersey)[b] Kentucky (Fr.)[n 4]
1 4 Tristan Thompson PF Canada Cleveland Cavaliers Texas (Fr.)
1 5 Jonas Valančiūnas C Lithuania Toronto Raptors[c] Lietuvos Rytas (Lithuania)
1 6 Jan Veselý PF Czech Republic Washington Wizards Partizan (Serbia)
1 7 Bismack Biyombo C DR Congo Sacramento Kings (traded to Charlotte)[A] Fuenlabrada (Spain)
1 8 Brandon Knight PG United States Detroit Pistons Kentucky (Fr.)
1 9 Kemba Walker PG United States Charlotte Bobcats Connecticut (Jr.)
1 10 Jimmer Fredette PG/SG United States Milwaukee Bucks (traded to Sacramento)[A] BYU (Sr.)
1 11 Klay Thompson SG United States Golden State Warriors Washington State (Jr.)
1 12 Alec Burks SG United States Utah Jazz Colorado (So.)
1 13 Markieff Morris PF United States Phoenix Suns Kansas (Jr.)
1 14 Marcus Morris PF/SF United States Houston Rockets Kansas (Jr.)
1 15 Kawhi Leonard SF United States Indiana Pacers (traded to San Antonio)[B] San Diego State (So.)
1 16 Nikola Vučević C Montenegro[n 5] Philadelphia 76ers USC (Jr.)
1 17 Iman Shumpert SG United States New York Knicks Georgia Tech (Jr.)
1 18 Chris Singleton SF United States Washington Wizards (from Atlanta)[d] Florida State (Jr.)
1 19 Tobias Harris SF United States Charlotte Bobcats (from New Orleans via Portland,[e] traded to Milwaukee)[A] Tennessee (Fr.)
1 20 Donatas Motiejūnas PF Lithuania Minnesota Timberwolves (from Memphis via Utah,[f] traded to Houston)[C] Benetton Treviso (Italy)
1 21 Nolan Smith PG United States Portland Trail Blazers Duke (Sr.)
1 22 Kenneth Faried PF United States Denver Nuggets Morehead State (Sr.)
1 23 Nikola Mirotić PF Spain[n 6] Houston Rockets (from Orlando via Phoenix,[g] traded to Chicago via Minnesota)[C][D] Real Madrid (Spain)
1 24 Reggie Jackson PG United States[n 7] Oklahoma City Thunder Boston College (Jr.)
1 25 MarShon Brooks SG United States Boston Celtics (traded to New Jersey)[E] Providence (Sr.)
1 26 Jordan Hamilton SG United States Dallas Mavericks (traded to Denver)[F] Texas (So.)
1 27 JaJuan Johnson PF United States New Jersey Nets (from L.A. Lakers,[h] traded to Boston)[E] Purdue (Sr.)
1 28 Norris Cole PG United States Chicago Bulls (from Miami via Toronto,[c] traded to Miami via Minnesota)[D][G] Cleveland State (Sr.)
1 29 Cory Joseph PG Canada San Antonio Spurs Texas (Fr.)
1 30 Jimmy Butler SG United States Chicago Bulls Marquette (Sr.)
2 31 Bojan Bogdanović SF/SG Croatia[n 8] Miami Heat (from Minnesota,[i] traded to New Jersey via Minnesota)[G][H] Cibona Zagreb (Croatia)[n 9]
2 32 Justin Harper PF United States Cleveland Cavaliers (traded to Orlando)[I] Richmond (Sr.)
2 33 Kyle Singler SF United States Detroit Pistons (from Toronto)[j] Duke (Sr.)
2 34 Shelvin Mack PG United States Washington Wizards Butler (Jr.)
2 35 Tyler Honeycutt SF United States Sacramento Kings UCLA (So.)
2 36 Jordan Williams PF United States New Jersey Nets Maryland (So.)
2 37 Trey Thompkins PF United States Los Angeles Clippers (from Detroit)[k] Georgia (Jr.)
2 38 Chandler Parsons SF United States Houston Rockets (from L.A. Clippers)[l][C] Florida (Sr.)
2 39 Jeremy Tyler PF United States Charlotte Bobcats (traded to Golden State)[J] Tokyo Apache (Japan)
2 40 Jon Leuer PF United States Milwaukee Bucks Wisconsin (Sr.)
2 41 Darius Morris PG United States Los Angeles Lakers (from Golden State via New Jersey)[h] Michigan (So.)
2 42 Dāvis Bertāns# SF Latvia Indiana Pacers (traded to San Antonio)[B] Union Olimpija (Slovenia)
2 43 Malcolm Lee SG United States Chicago Bulls (from Utah,[m] traded to Minnesota)[D] UCLA (Jr.)
2 44 Charles Jenkins PG United States Golden State Warriors (from Phoenix via Chicago)[n] Hofstra (Sr.)
2 45 Josh Harrellson C United States New Orleans Hornets (from Philadelphia,[o] traded to New York)[K] Kentucky (Sr.)
2 46 Andrew Goudelock PG United States Los Angeles Lakers (from New York)[p] College of Charleston (Sr.)
2 47 Travis Leslie SG United States Los Angeles Clippers (from Houston)[l] Georgia (Jr.)
2 48 Keith Benson C United States Atlanta Hawks Oakland (Sr.)
2 49 Josh Selby PG United States Memphis Grizzlies Kansas (Fr.)
2 50 Lavoy Allen PF United States Philadelphia 76ers (from New Orleans)[o] Temple (Sr.)
2 51 Jon Diebler# SG United States Portland Trail Blazers Ohio State (Sr.)
2 52 Vernon Macklin PF United States Detroit Pistons (from Denver)[q] Florida (Sr.)
2 53 DeAndre Liggins SG United States Orlando Magic Kentucky (Jr.)
2 54 Milan Mačvan# PF Serbia[n 10] Cleveland Cavaliers (from Oklahoma City via Miami)[r] Maccabi Tel Aviv (Israel)
2 55 E'Twaun Moore SG United States Boston Celtics Purdue (Sr.)
2 56 Chukwudiebere Maduabum# PF Nigeria Los Angeles Lakers (traded to Denver)[L] Bakersfield Jam (D-League)
2 57 Tanguy Ngombo# SF Qatar[n 11] Dallas Mavericks (traded to Portland)[F] Al Rayyan (Qatar)
2 58 Ater Majok# PF Australia[n 12] Los Angeles Lakers (from Miami)[s] Gold Coast Blaze (Australia)
2 59 Ádám Hanga# SG Hungary San Antonio Spurs Albacomp (Hungaria)[n 13]
2 60 Isaiah Thomas PG United States Sacramento Kings (from Chicago via Milwaukee)[t] Washington (Jr.)

Leonard goes 2 before us and Vucevic goes 1 before us.

and after shumpy:

19 Tobias Harris
22 Faried
23 Mirotic
24 Reggie Jackson
30 Jimmy Freakin BUTLER
38 Chandler Parsons

60 Isiah Thomas