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"MeloBall" Spoiler alert: StarMelo lovers should skip this.
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storyteller
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5/5/2012  2:07 PM
JamesKPolk wrote:Carmelo Anthony has achieved nothing in New York. He is on the same level as Marbury right now in turns of success. We still have not won a playoff game. He deserves criticism regardless of "Getting us to the playoffs". Are the expectations so low even with this team that simply making the playoffs is enough?

Apparently.

AUTOADVERT
nixluva
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5/5/2012  2:13 PM
BasketballJones wrote:"Melo Lovers", "Melo Fanboys". Sounds almost as icky as "Larry Lover". Who are these perverts? We need names!

Seriously, I don't think there are many (if any) actual "Melo Lovers". There are certainly guys who disagree as to the usage of Melo. To quote the two extremes: "Give it to melo every time and let him go ISO while everyone else stands around." or "Make Melo run to the corner on every play, and maybe the PG will pass it to him."

The coach needs to be flexible enough to do whatever it takes to win in a given situation, and hopefully the players will buy in and execute the plans. It isn't about loving a particular player more than the team, it's about what the best tactics are in a given situation.

Playing great TEAM BB is never the wrong thing. Melo needed to learn how to excel within a team concept!!! If you think MDA was asking him to just stand in a corner and wait then you don't understand the game. Neither does Melo.

Yea he got HOT and carried the team to the playoffs but that also was fools gold! You don't win that way in the playoffs. Only team to do it was AI and the Sixers and Melo isn't AI. Melo can't breakdown an entire playoff team D by himself for 4 qtrs and 4 games.

Melo needed to learn how to make his teammates better and he was given that chance! He had a coach that could teach him how and he resisted. The next coach we get will have to try and do the same thing cuz its the right thing to do. Melo can't be Al Harrington and win a title.

smackeddog
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5/5/2012  2:27 PM
JamesKPolk wrote:Carmelo Anthony has achieved nothing in New York. He is on the same level as Marbury right now in turns of success. We still have not won a playoff game. He deserves criticism regardless of "Getting us to the playoffs". Are the expectations so low even with this team that simply making the playoffs is enough?

Yes, when 2 of your starters are out injured, your starting PG has back problems, your back up PG should have retired, and your best defender off the bench (JJ) is injured, then carrying a team to the playoffs is an achievement.

yellowboy90
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5/5/2012  2:29 PM
For Real MDa is gone. No one cares about him Let him go. Stop bringing him up. MDA sucked. Yes, he sucked. You know he did, we all know he did. He is as one sided as Woodson is.
nixluva
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5/5/2012  2:38 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:For Real MDa is gone. No one cares about him Let him go. Stop bringing him up. MDA sucked. Yes, he sucked. You know he did, we all know he did. He is as one sided as Woodson is.

You realize that Woody was here ALL F'n YEAR??? This team wasn't bad on defense this year. They were top 10 or better all year. During Linsanity they were playing great D. They were giving up 93ppg and at the peak of Woody's run they were giving up 91ppg. The stats suggest that this team was defending well and the real problem was that Melo was doggin it all year and not fully buying in. Last year with a weaker roster this team was a top offensive team in the league before the trade. The roster was flawed but they tried to play as a team.

This year with Tyson and Shump the D was much improved, all we needed was some kind of spark on offense. When we got it the team was at .500 and all we needed was for Melo to come back and give the team a boost to go even further. He resisted and the team went 2-8. There was no reason for that to happen. If you can't see the clear shift in the mood of the team and Melo's lack of effort that came in the 10 games after Melo came back that led to MDA resigning your blind. The team went from only allow 93ppg to allow 110!!!!!

Nalod
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5/5/2012  2:40 PM
BasketballJones wrote:"Melo Lovers", "Melo Fanboys". Sounds almost as icky as "Larry Lover". Who are these perverts? We need names!

What about "MeloApologists?"

Melo is getting the hate because he took the love. Simple, this is the backlash from a "StarPhuch".

Fans got sold from MSG and the media machine a false prophet and expected more.

For many, its not just about Gallo vs. Melo, or Wilson, or the three draft picks.......it was the jersey sales and hype about "Melo coming home".

Most want to like him and everyone wants the team to succeed.

Papabear
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5/5/2012  2:40 PM
Nalod wrote:Recognizing the Limitations of Meloball
By HOWARD BECK
GREENBURGH, N.Y.

Alone on a podium late Thursday night, Carmelo Anthony wrapped himself in comfortable catchphrases and verbal deflections. The Miami Heat had not shut him down. He was simply “missing shots that I normally make.”

The Knicks, down three games to none in the playoffs, were not defeated. “Our confidence is high.”

Anthony’s tone was unwavering, his faith absolute. This is how elite talent speaks, with a self-belief that borders on the absurd and occasionally veers into self-delusion.

The Knicks, who have been outscored by 60 points in the series, are not going to be the first N.B.A. team (out of 100) to overcome a 3-0 deficit. Anthony, who is shooting .344 and has twice as many turnovers (12) as assists (6), is not going to lead them back.

The Knicks will soon exit the postseason, their 12th straight year without winning a series. Their 13-game losing streak is the longest in playoff history.

“I wasn’t here for them losses,” Anthony bristled this week, though he has now been here for seven.

His dismissiveness misses the larger point: the Knicks traded a bounty for Anthony — four starters and three draft picks — to end their decade-long drought, to make May and June matter again at Madison Square Garden. Anthony demanded a trade on the premise that he, along with Amar’e Stoudemire, would turn the Knicks into a reasonable facsimile of the LeBron James-Dwyane Wade Heat.

So far, the Anthony-Stoudemire Knicks have accomplished no more than the Stephon Marbury-Tim Thomas Knicks (swept in 2004).

They have had their misfortune — injuries to Stoudemire and Chauncey Billups in 2011, injuries to Stoudemire and Iman Shumpert in 2012 — but great teams find a way to win. And when they fail, the great players absorb, reflect and rededicate themselves.

Anthony is not the reflective type. He has rarely taken responsibility for his team’s failures, preferring to shift blame toward injuries, coaches or the playbook. But the N.B.A. is a star-driven league, and Anthony — a star by reputation, if not achievement — must eventually confront his own résumé.

In nine postseasons, Anthony is 16-36 — the worst record among active players with at least 50 playoff games. He has won a first-round series only once, in 2009. Since then, he has lost 11 of 13 playoff games. If the Knicks lose Sunday, it will be Anthony’s third time getting swept in five years.

Anthony shot .375 against the Boston Celtics in last year’s sweep. He is shooting miserably against Miami, but he is still taking 30 percent of his team’s field-goal attempts while the offense stagnates and the Heat loads up its defense.

Playing Meloball — in which Anthony dominates the offense, usually in ball-pounding isolation sets — got the Knicks through a critical late-season period, without Stoudemire and Jeremy Lin, with a 9-4 record. Anthony was brilliant in that stretch, shooting high percentages and collecting 30-point games while the defense did the rest.

But we are now seeing the limitations of Meloball. It can win 45 to 50 games (as it did in Denver), but it cannot beat a team as talented and disciplined as the Heat.

Stoudemire hardly saw the ball in the first two games of this series. The Knicks’ 3-point shooters are not getting open looks, because the ball is not moving.

Anthony is a great scorer. He is not yet a great player, because he does not consistently elevate his teammates. He averaged a modest 3.6 assists per game this season, and has a career average of 3.1.

By contrast, consider his close friends from the 2003 draft class: Wade has averaged 6.2 assists per game for his career, and James 6.9. Both Miami stars can control a game through their playmaking alone. The same goes for Kobe Bryant (4.7 career average), when the mood strikes.

In Cleveland, James led his teams deep into the playoffs (including the 2007 finals) despite a lackluster lineup, proving that a selfless star is infinitely more valuable than a single-minded gunner.

Kurt Rambis — a former teammate of Magic Johnson and a former coach of Bryant — put it best in an ESPN podcast, saying of Anthony: “One of the things he has to learn is how to involve his teammates more. There’s a lot more to winning ballgames than just scoring points.”

George Karl and Mike D’Antoni tried in vain to sell Anthony on this virtue, costing Karl years of aggravation and D’Antoni his job.

Initially, D’Antoni asked Anthony to play point forward, giving him the ball control he desired, but with equal responsibility for scoring and playmaking. Anthony accepted the role grudgingly and played it poorly.

Once Lin emerged, the Knicks’ playmaking needs were resolved. But Anthony was uncomfortable in a point guard-dominated offense and admitted as much a week before D’Antoni resigned.

So far, the only offense that seems to please Anthony is one where everyone else passes and he shoots.

“Melo is going to have to raise his game,” Coach Mike Woodson said Friday, suggesting that Anthony needs some growth to escape his personal playoff rut. “He’s got to change that.”

Woodson, an interim coach with no leverage, has necessarily catered to Anthony’s desires. With a little job security, he might not be so forgiving. Phil Jackson, if he were enticed by the Garden’s riches, would certainly demand a more team-oriented game.

Anthony will be 28 this month — old enough to be considered a veteran, young enough to learn. The Knicks will never be an elite team until he matures. And he will never truly be a star until he evolves.

Papabear Says

So what do you want to do?? Shoot the man? Trade him? Hell It is what it is. Hey I like Mike Woodson but the only way to clean up the mess in New York is to bring in Phil Jackson and when he tells Dolan to get rid of a player Dolan better listen and if Dolan questions all Phil has to do is show him all of those rings. Phil will demand for Melo to play the right way. He will demand for Stat to play the right way but I think Phil will want to get rid of Amare. As far a Lin goes does he has the body to last a season? I don't think so. Let's do a deal with the Nets and lets forget about the money making on Lins shirts. I want a championnship. Melo must realize and take a page from the Heat. 3 superstars can co-exist and if Melo have a problem with that send him packing.

Papabear
sidsanders
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5/5/2012  2:41 PM
nixluva wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:For Real MDa is gone. No one cares about him Let him go. Stop bringing him up. MDA sucked. Yes, he sucked. You know he did, we all know he did. He is as one sided as Woodson is.

You realize that Woody was here ALL F'n YEAR??? This team wasn't bad on defense this year. They were top 10 or better all year. During Linsanity they were playing great D. They were giving up 93ppg and at the peak of Woody's run they were giving up 91ppg. The stats suggest that this team was defending well and the real problem was that Melo was doggin it all year and not fully buying in. Last year with a weaker roster this team was a top offensive team in the league before the trade. The roster was flawed but they tried to play as a team.

This year with Tyson and Shump the D was much improved, all we needed was some kind of spark on offense. When we got it the team was at .500 and all we needed was for Melo to come back and give the team a boost to go even further. He resisted and the team went 2-8. There was no reason for that to happen. If you can't see the clear shift in the mood of the team and Melo's lack of effort that came in the 10 games after Melo came back that led to MDA resigning your blind. The team went from only allow 93ppg to allow 110!!!!!

does it matter, the guy is gone... no one is gonna look back on any part of the 2000-2012 years with any real fondness (well, i would think thats the case). there is nothing to recall that was great that lasted long enough to make any diff in the end during 10+ years.

GO TEAM VENTURE!!!!!
tkf
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5/5/2012  3:06 PM
Anji wrote:Vulture going to be vultures. Only thing the knicks can do is keep building.

Looking Forward to next season.

keep building.. look forward to next season? jeez, I thought those were supposed to be words of the past once we sold the farm to get melo here....

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
BasketballJones
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5/5/2012  3:08 PM
Nalod wrote:
BasketballJones wrote:"Melo Lovers", "Melo Fanboys". Sounds almost as icky as "Larry Lover". Who are these perverts? We need names!

What about "MeloApologists?"

Melo is getting the hate because he took the love. Simple, this is the backlash from a "StarPhuch".

Fans got sold from MSG and the media machine a false prophet and expected more.

For many, its not just about Gallo vs. Melo, or Wilson, or the three draft picks.......it was the jersey sales and hype about "Melo coming home".

Most want to like him and everyone wants the team to succeed.

Well, the Hater/Lover stuff is funny some times, annoying a other times. My impression is there are some guys who seem to get upset anytime melo is criticized (I guess those are the lovers/apologists) and other guys who (it seems) can't stand to see him praised even just a little (hatters?) and a whole bunch of us who (I think) take a balanced view but might get lumped into one camp or the other. I don't hate or love Melo. I can see he has strengths and weaknesses, and I think he could be a much better player than he is. Maybe a Phil Jackson type coach could bring that out of him. Unfortunately there is only one and I just don't think he's coming here.

https:// It's not so hard.
blkexec
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5/5/2012  3:56 PM
JamesKPolk wrote:Carmelo Anthony has achieved nothing in New York. He is on the same level as Marbury right now in turns of success. We still have not won a playoff game. He deserves criticism regardless of "Getting us to the playoffs". Are the expectations so low even with this team that simply making the playoffs is enough?

Not true....Marbury is a champion now! He now has his own freaking statue and is showered with love from the BEIJING DUCKS! While Melo continues to be showered with criticism his entire career!

The problem starts by calling Melo a superstar. If all you are good at is putting the ball in the hole, you're just another role player like Novak. The problem is that Melo thinks hes a star, and the NBA / peers puts him in the star category.

My definition of a superstar, you have to have a special skill surrounded by above average skills. Melo is a solid complimentary player, but can not carry a team. I really don't know what his special skill is....But I do not this, the other basketball skills thats needed to be a superstar, is not above average. The most important one is making your teammates better.

For example....He shoots 7-22, trying to make tough shots over 3 people....Fall down and complain to the refs, while his man is catching alley opps on the other end. Thats not making your team better. Thats not playing team ball. Thats not playing both ends. Thats not leadership. This is why Wilson Chandler was my favorite player....He plays both ends, and doesn't cry to the refs while his man is dominating.

I'm glad Woodson is calling him out about his weight. If Melo doesn't want to hold himself accountable, gotta luv coaches like Woodson who's not afraid to challenge his stars. Something MDA can learn from....

Born in Brooklyn, Raised in Queens, Lives in Maryland. The future is bright, I'm a Knicks fan for life!
nixluva
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5/5/2012  4:13 PM
blkexec wrote:
JamesKPolk wrote:Carmelo Anthony has achieved nothing in New York. He is on the same level as Marbury right now in turns of success. We still have not won a playoff game. He deserves criticism regardless of "Getting us to the playoffs". Are the expectations so low even with this team that simply making the playoffs is enough?

Not true....Marbury is a champion now! He now has his own freaking statue and is showered with love from the BEIJING DUCKS! While Melo continues to be showered with criticism his entire career!

The problem starts by calling Melo a superstar. If all you are good at is putting the ball in the hole, you're just another role player like Novak. The problem is that Melo thinks hes a star, and the NBA / peers puts him in the star category.

My definition of a superstar, you have to have a special skill surrounded by above average skills. Melo is a solid complimentary player, but can not carry a team. I really don't know what his special skill is....But I do not this, the other basketball skills thats needed to be a superstar, is not above average. The most important one is making your teammates better.

For example....He shoots 7-22, trying to make tough shots over 3 people....Fall down and complain to the refs, while his man is catching alley opps on the other end. Thats not making your team better. Thats not playing team ball. Thats not playing both ends. Thats not leadership. This is why Wilson Chandler was my favorite player....He plays both ends, and doesn't cry to the refs while his man is dominating.

I'm glad Woodson is calling him out about his weight. If Melo doesn't want to hold himself accountable, gotta luv coaches like Woodson who's not afraid to challenge his stars. Something MDA can learn from....

One thing to remember is that the reason MDA and STAT had to have a meeting before he signed is because MDA and STAT had a falling out about STAT refusing to play D. People forget that this happened and how STAT tried to blame MDA for never teaching him D, which is garbage, since MDA actually had a defensive assistant named Marc Iavaroni who was a respected coach:

Marc Iavaroni, after serving as a well-regarded assistant to both Pat Riley and Mike D'Antoni, was a hot commodity on the coaching market two summers ago.

Jul 25, 2011 – Marc Iavaroni- Obviously has history with D'Antoni in Phoenix, helping lead the Suns into the top half of the NBA in defensive rating.

Since then STAT also had Terry Porter who was brought in to focus on D, Alvin Gentry who also looked to focus on D and now Mike Woodson. There's been no change in STAT's defense.

I bring this up because MDA's teams in PHX were often better than it seemed defensively and the biggest problem was that they had STAT as the anchor of the defense. Without STAT they managed to win 54 games and get to the WCF's with Diaw as their center. You can't do that if you aren't defending. IT'S IMPOSSIBLE!!!

Here in NY the Knicks played very good D all year even when MDA was still head coach. The defensive system is exactly the same one Woody uses and with a better defensive anchor in Tyson the team improved. STAT still undermines the defense even under Woody.

fishmike
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5/5/2012  4:34 PM
blkexec wrote:
JamesKPolk wrote:Carmelo Anthony has achieved nothing in New York. He is on the same level as Marbury right now in turns of success. We still have not won a playoff game. He deserves criticism regardless of "Getting us to the playoffs". Are the expectations so low even with this team that simply making the playoffs is enough?

Not true....Marbury is a champion now! He now has his own freaking statue and is showered with love from the BEIJING DUCKS! While Melo continues to be showered with criticism his entire career!

The problem starts by calling Melo a superstar. If all you are good at is putting the ball in the hole, you're just another role player like Novak. The problem is that Melo thinks hes a star, and the NBA / peers puts him in the star category.

My definition of a superstar, you have to have a special skill surrounded by above average skills. Melo is a solid complimentary player, but can not carry a team. I really don't know what his special skill is....But I do not this, the other basketball skills thats needed to be a superstar, is not above average. The most important one is making your teammates better.

For example....He shoots 7-22, trying to make tough shots over 3 people....Fall down and complain to the refs, while his man is catching alley opps on the other end. Thats not making your team better. Thats not playing team ball. Thats not playing both ends. Thats not leadership. This is why Wilson Chandler was my favorite player....He plays both ends, and doesn't cry to the refs while his man is dominating.

I'm glad Woodson is calling him out about his weight. If Melo doesn't want to hold himself accountable, gotta luv coaches like Woodson who's not afraid to challenge his stars. Something MDA can learn from....


Post of the year. Calling it like you see it man. The guy just isn't the player he's sold as. Damn good, but well below what he's sold as.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
ShellTopAdidas
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5/5/2012  4:36 PM
tkf wrote:
Anji wrote:Vulture going to be vultures. Only thing the knicks can do is keep building.

Looking Forward to next season.

keep building.. look forward to next season? jeez, I thought those were supposed to be words of the past once we sold the farm to get melo here....


Exactly! And frankly, I'm tired if hearing it....smh!
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5/5/2012  4:42 PM
nixluva wrote:
blkexec wrote:
JamesKPolk wrote:Carmelo Anthony has achieved nothing in New York. He is on the same level as Marbury right now in turns of success. We still have not won a playoff game. He deserves criticism regardless of "Getting us to the playoffs". Are the expectations so low even with this team that simply making the playoffs is enough?

Not true....Marbury is a champion now! He now has his own freaking statue and is showered with love from the BEIJING DUCKS! While Melo continues to be showered with criticism his entire career!

The problem starts by calling Melo a superstar. If all you are good at is putting the ball in the hole, you're just another role player like Novak. The problem is that Melo thinks hes a star, and the NBA / peers puts him in the star category.

My definition of a superstar, you have to have a special skill surrounded by above average skills. Melo is a solid complimentary player, but can not carry a team. I really don't know what his special skill is....But I do not this, the other basketball skills thats needed to be a superstar, is not above average. The most important one is making your teammates better.

For example....He shoots 7-22, trying to make tough shots over 3 people....Fall down and complain to the refs, while his man is catching alley opps on the other end. Thats not making your team better. Thats not playing team ball. Thats not playing both ends. Thats not leadership. This is why Wilson Chandler was my favorite player....He plays both ends, and doesn't cry to the refs while his man is dominating.

I'm glad Woodson is calling him out about his weight. If Melo doesn't want to hold himself accountable, gotta luv coaches like Woodson who's not afraid to challenge his stars. Something MDA can learn from....

One thing to remember is that the reason MDA and STAT had to have a meeting before he signed is because MDA and STAT had a falling out about STAT refusing to play D. People forget that this happened and how STAT tried to blame MDA for never teaching him D, which is garbage, since MDA actually had a defensive assistant named Marc Iavaroni who was a respected coach:

Marc Iavaroni, after serving as a well-regarded assistant to both Pat Riley and Mike D'Antoni, was a hot commodity on the coaching market two summers ago.

Jul 25, 2011 – Marc Iavaroni- Obviously has history with D'Antoni in Phoenix, helping lead the Suns into the top half of the NBA in defensive rating.

Since then STAT also had Terry Porter who was brought in to focus on D, Alvin Gentry who also looked to focus on D and now Mike Woodson. There's been no change in STAT's defense.

I bring this up because MDA's teams in PHX were often better than it seemed defensively and the biggest problem was that they had STAT as the anchor of the defense. Without STAT they managed to win 54 games and get to the WCF's with Diaw as their center. You can't do that if you aren't defending. IT'S IMPOSSIBLE!!!

Here in NY the Knicks played very good D all year even when MDA was still head coach. The defensive system is exactly the same one Woody uses and with a better defensive anchor in Tyson the team improved. STAT still undermines the defense even under Woody.


I have never heard that the falling out was because Amare didn't want to play defense. It seems a bit of a reach in my opinion when it was widely reported that D'Antoni left Phoenix when he was asked to emphasize defense more. I do know that there were articles at the time saying that D'ant didn't have control of Amare. If you could provide a link backing up the claim that D'Antoni had a conflict with Amare because of d please provide it.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
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5/5/2012  4:49 PM    LAST EDITED: 5/5/2012  4:52 PM
fishmike wrote:
blkexec wrote:
JamesKPolk wrote:Carmelo Anthony has achieved nothing in New York. He is on the same level as Marbury right now in turns of success. We still have not won a playoff game. He deserves criticism regardless of "Getting us to the playoffs". Are the expectations so low even with this team that simply making the playoffs is enough?

Not true....Marbury is a champion now! He now has his own freaking statue and is showered with love from the BEIJING DUCKS! While Melo continues to be showered with criticism his entire career!

The problem starts by calling Melo a superstar. If all you are good at is putting the ball in the hole, you're just another role player like Novak. The problem is that Melo thinks hes a star, and the NBA / peers puts him in the star category.

My definition of a superstar, you have to have a special skill surrounded by above average skills. Melo is a solid complimentary player, but can not carry a team. I really don't know what his special skill is....But I do not this, the other basketball skills thats needed to be a superstar, is not above average. The most important one is making your teammates better.

For example....He shoots 7-22, trying to make tough shots over 3 people....Fall down and complain to the refs, while his man is catching alley opps on the other end. Thats not making your team better. Thats not playing team ball. Thats not playing both ends. Thats not leadership. This is why Wilson Chandler was my favorite player....He plays both ends, and doesn't cry to the refs while his man is dominating.

I'm glad Woodson is calling him out about his weight. If Melo doesn't want to hold himself accountable, gotta luv coaches like Woodson who's not afraid to challenge his stars. Something MDA can learn from....


Post of the year. Calling it like you see it man. The guy just isn't the player he's sold as. Damn good, but well below what he's sold as.

YES!!! Which is why the trade bothered me so much. After the trade I was saying to myself, "all that.....for Melo????, Really Dolan???" Smh!!!! I mean I can see if we had Bobcats roster. Smh!
AnubisADL
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5/5/2012  6:55 PM
blkexec wrote:
JamesKPolk wrote:Carmelo Anthony has achieved nothing in New York. He is on the same level as Marbury right now in turns of success. We still have not won a playoff game. He deserves criticism regardless of "Getting us to the playoffs". Are the expectations so low even with this team that simply making the playoffs is enough?

Not true....Marbury is a champion now! He now has his own freaking statue and is showered with love from the BEIJING DUCKS! While Melo continues to be showered with criticism his entire career!

The problem starts by calling Melo a superstar. If all you are good at is putting the ball in the hole, you're just another role player like Novak. The problem is that Melo thinks hes a star, and the NBA / peers puts him in the star category.

My definition of a superstar, you have to have a special skill surrounded by above average skills. Melo is a solid complimentary player, but can not carry a team. I really don't know what his special skill is....But I do not this, the other basketball skills thats needed to be a superstar, is not above average. The most important one is making your teammates better.

For example....He shoots 7-22, trying to make tough shots over 3 people....Fall down and complain to the refs, while his man is catching alley opps on the other end. Thats not making your team better. Thats not playing team ball. Thats not playing both ends. Thats not leadership. This is why Wilson Chandler was my favorite player....He plays both ends, and doesn't cry to the refs while his man is dominating.

I'm glad Woodson is calling him out about his weight. If Melo doesn't want to hold himself accountable, gotta luv coaches like Woodson who's not afraid to challenge his stars. Something MDA can learn from....

Melo is a superstar. This has already been proven. The guy was making the playoffs his ENTIRE career in the HIGHLY competitive West were you needed an above .500 record to get in. The guy has played with all types of guards Ander Miller, Allen Iverson, Chauncey Billups, etc. All 3 of those guards have different styles and. Melo's teams always got to the playoffs even when guys like Kenyon Martin (Near Max Contract) and Nene were sitting on the bench in suits. Lets not take his play out of context. The East was a huge joke for the last decade.

So Melo goes 7-22 and has to forces some shots. Did you expect Miami to give him open looks? YI suppose Melo should defer to guys like Steve Novak and JR Smith. Lets not pretend Melo is playing with a young Ray Allen or Peja Stojakovic. Melo was playing with guys who are bench players on other teams.

Maybe Melo should be more like Lebron and play hot potato with the ball like he did against Dallas in the NBA finals.

Melo could stand to slim down but realistically he isnt going to have Durant's or Amare's physique.

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nixluva
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5/6/2012  12:25 AM
CrushAlot wrote:
nixluva wrote:One thing to remember is that the reason MDA and STAT had to have a meeting before he signed is because MDA and STAT had a falling out about STAT refusing to play D. People forget that this happened and how STAT tried to blame MDA for never teaching him D, which is garbage, since MDA actually had a defensive assistant named Marc Iavaroni who was a respected coach:

Marc Iavaroni, after serving as a well-regarded assistant to both Pat Riley and Mike D'Antoni, was a hot commodity on the coaching market two summers ago.

Jul 25, 2011 – Marc Iavaroni- Obviously has history with D'Antoni in Phoenix, helping lead the Suns into the top half of the NBA in defensive rating.

Since then STAT also had Terry Porter who was brought in to focus on D, Alvin Gentry who also looked to focus on D and now Mike Woodson. There's been no change in STAT's defense.

I have never heard that the falling out was because Amare didn't want to play defense. It seems a bit of a reach in my opinion when it was widely reported that D'Antoni left Phoenix when he was asked to emphasize defense more. I do know that there were articles at the time saying that D'ant didn't have control of Amare. If you could provide a link backing up the claim that D'Antoni had a conflict with Amare because of d please provide it.

It's hard to find the exact articles from that long ago. I have some anecdotal evidence tho. It's been my contention that STAT was ALWAYS bad on D and he blamed MDA in public to cover up his own failings.

While helping the Suns become one of the league's best and most exciting teams, D'Antoni and Stoudemire clashed hard and often, leading several executives around the NBA to insist the two would never consider working together again.

On Sunday, D'Antoni wanted to assure Stoudemire that he believes he is a terrific player and that he's 100 percent behind the Knicks' push to bring him to New York, sources said.

Stoudemire has told those close to him that much of the tension between the two was his fault, citing his youth and immaturity when he entered the league fresh out of high school. Stoudemire has said he's matured to the point that he now realizes D'Antoni was only trying to make him a better player, according to sources.

This was from a Suns forum from that time.

LKdude:
Quote from: "defenseallday"

"I love Terry Porter," Stoudemire says to the camera. "His method. His way of coaching is going to be great for us. You know, he's extremely focused on the defensive end, something that we haven't practiced at all in the previous three years, and now we're definitely practicing and improving on the defensive end."

xduckshoex:
The notion that the Suns did not practice defense at all is ridiculous. They actually had a very innovative defensive system.

And this is funny coming from Amare, because that season he was out the Suns were a top 10 defensive team for a while with Kurt Thomas replacing Amare

The Suns were actually an excellent defensive team on the perimeter when they had Marion. They had to be because they had zero interior defense without Kurt Thomas on the floor.

Think about it. They were among the best in the League at keeping opponents off the free throw line and their assist differential was the consistently the best in the League; most assists come from breaking down the defense and most fouls occur in the paint so the only reasonable explanation is that the Suns did a good job of keeping their opponents out of the paint; that's great perimeter defense.

It's also worth noting that they were among the leaders in drawing charges, with Marion, Bell and Nash leading the way.

And yes, they finished 16th overall that season because their defense was much worse after Thomas went down. That's why I specifically said "for a while". They were in the top 5 for the first half of the season.

xduckshoex:
Quote from: "t-mac357"

what does it matter that the suns supposedly were a top 10 team defensively early in the season, they finished 16th, they gave up 102ppg that season and were outrebounded regularly, and they almost lost to the clippers and lakers in the playoffs

Here is why it matters:

Amare is complaining that they didn't play enough defense.

If they were a top 5 defensive team for an extended period of time when they replaced the injured Amare with Kurt Thomas, it really looks like Amare was a huge part of the reason that they didn't play great defense, doesn't it?

It's ironic, and it's strong evidence that Amare should take a look at himself before he talks about others.

.
CrushAlot
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5/6/2012  12:36 AM
Nix, I think it is hard to find because it doesn't exist. D'Antoni generally doesn't criticiZe players and he definitely isn't critical of his stars. He doesn't break that bond so to speak at least publicly. But to suggest that he feuded with Amare because he wanted Amare to play better defense is far fetched in my opinion. When Amare endorsed Porter I believe he said he had never been taught to play defense or something in that regard. Amare saying it was mostly his fault yielded him a 100 million dollar contract. If you can find anything that says D'antoni called Amare out for his lack of d and that was why they feuded post it please.
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nixluva
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5/6/2012  1:19 AM
CrushAlot wrote:Nix, I think it is hard to find because it doesn't exist. D'Antoni generally doesn't criticiZe players and he definitely isn't critical of his stars. He doesn't break that bond so to speak at least publicly. But to suggest that he feuded with Amare because he wanted Amare to play better defense is far fetched in my opinion. When Amare endorsed Porter I believe he said he had never been taught to play defense or something in that regard. Amare saying it was mostly his fault yielded him a 100 million dollar contract. If you can find anything that says D'antoni called Amare out for his lack of d and that was why they feuded post it please.

Oh I know that this was a source of their strife, because STAT had nothing else in his game that MDA could be angry with him about except Defense and Rebounding, which are his weaknesses. I posted the fact that MDA did have defensive assistant named Marc Iavaroni, who did in fact teach STAT defense!!! Perhaps you didn't read that. Everyone else on the team did in fact defend!!! It's a lie that MDA didn't have a defensive system. In fact as my previous post suggests Suns fans knew that STAT sucked on D and that they defended better when he didn't play and they had KT in there instead of him.

We've got years of proof that STAT has been a poor defender, so that you don't have to suspend belief to see that. STAT doesn't accept his own responsibility for his poor D. How many coaches does he have to have before he can say that he's been coached defense? How many good defensive teammates does he have to have before he can tap one on the shoulder and ask for tips? Marc Iavaroni, Terry Porter, Alvin Gentry, Dan D'Antoni and Mike Woodson and STAT still sucks on D!!! Is that MDA or him???

I will keep looking for the article, tho I'm positive that you won't find any direct quotes from MDA cuz as you say he's not that kind of guy. Whereas STAT threw MDA under the bus, MDA didn't do that, even tho STAT's poor D sabotaged MDA's chances to win more. Here is an excellent article from the 05 season when the Suns went to the WCF's without STAT. It provides an excellent case study of STATS negative impact on the defense as opposed to how the team did without him. We saw a similar situation with the Knicks, only difference is that here MDA had Jared and Tyson to man the middle which made his style of defense even more effective.

Every Play Counts: The Phoenix Suns Defense

NBA Statistical Analyst Kevin Pelton

by Kevin Pelton, 1/31/05


In "Every Play Counts," 82games.com's Kevin Pelton focuses on one player or team in a single game, looking to explain how and why they succeed or fail. Naturally, one game isn't everything, but the results can be fascinating. Also see Michael David Smith's original "Every Play Counts" at FootballOutsiders.com.

When I first set out to do an Every Play Counts on the Phoenix Suns' defense, I wasn't concerned with the opponent. Any nationally-televised game that I could TiVo would do. Lo and behold, that game was Jan. 20 against the Los Angeles Lakers and Kobe Bryant, which meant two days after it was played and a day after I broke down the tape, it gained a lot more significance when Bryant followed up his 37-point outing in Phoenix by dropping 81 points on the Toronto Raptors. My main goal is still to figure out how the Suns have made such a dramatic improvement on the defensive end of the court this season, but we'll also take a look at how Phoenix was able to, at minimum, hold Bryant in check.

As I've said in the past, the goal of Every Play Counts isn't so much to determine whether a team or player is successful or not as it is to determine why they succeed or fail. The first task is better done using a more long-term view, as one game is not a sufficient sample size. So let's start off by looking at what Donald Rumsfeld would term our "known knowns."

We know that the Suns were a below-average defensive team a year ago. Phoenix was 17th in the league in Defensive Rating, allowing 107.0 points per 100 possessions, and the Suns d was torched by the San Antonio Spurs, who averaged 108.2 points per game in defeating Phoenix in the Western Conference Finals four games to one. We know that the Suns prioritized defense over the off-season, trading forward Quentin Richardson to New York for veteran big man Kurt Thomas and signing perimeter stopper Raja Bell as a free agent. We know that Phoenix's plan to play Thomas at power forward was blown up when Amaré Stoudemire underwent microfracture knee surgery in October, moving Thomas to center and eventually Boris Diaw to power forward.

We know that the Suns have posted the NBA's fourth-best Defensive Rating thus far this season, cutting their points allowed per 100 possessions to 103.6. We know they've done this in most unorthodox fashion; looking at Dean Oliver's Four Factors, the Suns rank outside of the NBA's top 10 in effective-field-goal percentage defense (12), turnover rate (18) and defensive rebounding (15). Much of of their defensive success, then, can be traced to a single factor: keeping opponents off the free-throw line. Phoenix leads the NBA in this category, with opposing teams averaging one made free throw for every five field goals attempted against the Suns (league-wide, the average is about one for every four).

We know that the plus-minus statistics on this site single out two players as key to the Phoenix defense: Diaw and highly-regarded defender Shawn Marion. The Suns are 8.4 points per 100 possessions better on D with Diaw on the court, 4.0 better with Marion.

Got all that? Let's take a look at what I saw, starting with Dean Oliver's defensive statistics. To briefly summarize, the categories are FM (forced misses/blocks), FTO (forced turnovers/steals), FTS (missed free throws where the player in question committed the foul), DFGM (field goals defended/3-pointers) and DFTM (made free throws). "Team" refers to plays which were not defended by one specific player:

Name         FM/B  FTO/S  FTS DFGM/3  DFTM
------------------------------------------
Nash 5 1 /1 2 /1
Bell 14 2 1 8 /4 3
Thomas 6 1 4
Diaw 6 /1 1 /1 2 5
Marion 8.5/2 3 /2 8 4
Barbosa 1 1 1 /1
Jones 4
House 1 /1
------------------------------------------
Team 2.5 1 6 /1

To take the analysis one step further, I've calculated some composite numbers based on the raw data: effective field-goal percentage allowed, points given up, possessions defended, Defensive Rating (points per 100 possessions), possessions faced per 40 minutes and the percentage of possessions where I marked the player as providing "help defense."

Name        eFG%  Pts   Pos  DRtg Pos40 Help%
---------------------------------------------
Nash .357 5 8 62.5 8.9 .250
Bell .455 23 26 88.5 26.5 .038
Thomas .143 6 9 66.7 14.7 .222
Diaw .250 9 11 81.8 13.8 .364
Marion .485 20 21.5 93.0 19.5 .209
Barbosa .750 3 3 100.0 3.9 .000
Jones .500 8 8 100.0 33.3 .375
House 1.000 2 2 100.0 3.3 .000
---------------------------------------------
Team .765 13 9.5 136.8

What stands out to me here? Well, the number of possessions faced by Bell leaps off the page. Traditionally, defenses are built from the inside out; the post players face the most possessions, guards handling only a few. The Phoenix defense was keyed by wing players Bell and Marion (who did see considerable time at power forward). In Bell's case, that's because he was defending Bryant (more on that later). In Marion's case, it shows his value as a team defender -- but also a certain weakness defending one-on-one. Big men Diaw and Thomas were both effective in terms of the possessions they did handle, and no one player was particularly victimized from the Lakers.

So what are the Suns doing so differently than everyone else? ESPN commentator Steve Jones mentioned their pressure, but the brief explanation I've heard of why Phoenix's defense improved after a slow start (a key to why I wanted to take a deeper look) indicated the Suns have been playing more man-to-man and eschewing trapping. I did see Phoenix "digging down" with a help defender coming to double-team the post on a number of occasions, but I wouldn't say they trapped a great deal more than other teams.

Instead, what I saw was in some ways the opposite. It appears to me that the Suns put less pressure on the ball than any other NBA team. With the exception of the Bell-Bryant matchup, Phoenix defenders were continually at least an arm's length away from the player with the ball. Suns defenders rarely ventured outside the 3-point line, which made me think of this wonderful explanation of Washington State University Coach Dick Bennett's "pack-line defense" I recently watched. The system calls for defenders to stay within an imaginary line two feet inside the 3-point line, and I saw Suns players doing something similar ... except for one enormous difference -- Bennett's system calls for heavy ball pressure.

In practice, what does the Suns' lack of pressure do? It makes Phoenix much better at containing the basketball than their peers. The Suns' defensive players, with the possible exception of Thomas, are notable for their quick feet. Playing a step off of their opposing number allows them to stay between them and the basket at almost all times, which forces opposing teams to stay on the perimeter and keeps them out of the paint -- which is, in truth, vulnerable because Marion is Phoenix's only shot-blocker. At the same time, by playing off their playerrs, Suns defenders -- who are, with the notable exception of Nash, very "long" -- are always in position to give help from the perimeter when one of their teammates is beaten. This is very different from the traditional NBA "funnel" defense, which directs all drivers towards a big man (or two), and explains why the Suns have more balanced help defense percentages than the Detroit and San Antonio defenses I looked at earlier this month.

The Suns' unorthodox style shows up a couple of places in the statistics. One, naturally, is in terms of keeping teams off the free-throw line. Not only does Phoenix's system keep teams out of the paint, where most fouls are committed, it also keeps them from being called for touch fouls on the perimeter under the new rules interpretations I discussed for SI.com last week. The other is in terms of opponent assists.

Earlier this season, SI.com's Kelly Dwyer mentioned the Suns had the largest differential between their assists and their opponents' assists in the league. This led a reader to wonder, "What would a team do to ‘prevent’ opponent assists?"

Well, the answer is you don't let teams drive and kick, and nobody does that better than the Suns. Phoenix's opponents have assisted on just 44.9% of their baskets, which is not only the lowest mark in the NBA, it's the lowest mark in NBA history - and by a wide margin. The only previous team in NBA history to have opponents assist on less than half of their baskets was the immortal 1978-79 San Diego Clippers, whose opponents handed out assists on 49.5% of their baskets. (The Spurs would also break this record if the season ended today, allowing assists on 48.2% of their baskets. San Antonio and Phoenix finished 1-2 in the NBA in that order last season, indicating to me this reflects something meaningful and is not merely random.)

Something else I was looking for is whether the Suns tend to switch more picks than most teams, which would make sense given that Diaw and Marion are so versatile. This was a poor game to get a read on that issue, because the Lakers ran many of their screen-rolls with power forward Lamar Odom, and the vast majority of teams will switch these plays. I did see Diaw switch out onto guards a number of times in Sunday's Suns game against the Seattle SuperSonics, but overall it doesn't appear the Suns switch that much more than most other teams.

Where the Phoenix defense is vulnerable is the low post, which isn't surprising given that the 6-9 Thomas is their tallest rotation player and the 6-8 Diaw and 6-7 Marion often play together in the middle. To stop quality post players, the Suns are forced to double-team, creating open looks on the perimeter. As good as Marion is defensively -- and I would rank him with almost anyone in the league in terms of help defense -- he is often overmatched amongst power forrwards down low, which explains why his Defensive Rating was the worst of the Phoenix starters and why his opponent statistics don’t reflect an All-Defense-caliber player.

Now, let's look at how the Suns defended Bryant. What I've done here is constructed a traditional box-score (more or less) with Bryant's evening divided up into who was responsible for each shot/turnover:


Name FGM FGA 3M 3A FTM FTA TO PTS
---------------------------------------
Nash 0 .5 0 .5 0 0 1 0
Bell 9 21.5 4 9.5 2 2 2 24
Thomas 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0
Diaw 0 1.5 0 1 3 3 0 3
Marion 2 5.5 0 0 4 4 0 8
Team 1 2 0 1 0 0 1 2
---------------------------------------
TOTAL 12 33 4 12 9 9 4 37

That's about as many shots as you'll see one player take against one specific defender in one game; Bell was on Bryant for all but a quick rest for the last three minutes of the first quarter, when Marion had the defensive assignment. (Bryant also sat out just over seven and a half minutes, most at the start of the second quarter.) For the most part, Bell did an exemplary job. He is an extraordinarily physical defender in the Bruce Bowen mold, frustrating offensive players into several technical fouls this season. Bryant joined that list, earning a T after Bell drew a second offensive foul on him in the third quarter.

Bell did a commendable job of turning Bryant into a jumpshooter and giving him few easy looks aside from a couple of scores in transition. Bryant shot just nine free throws, and those mostly came when he was fouled while shooting jumpers. Bell also drew a pair of offensive fouls on Bryant, and a recent study on this site indicates that Bell has drawn more offensive fouls than any other player in the NBA. (The Suns lead the league in this regard, which is probably related to their desire to contain the ball and play a step off ballhandlers. This enables Suns defenders to position themselves in front of the ballhandler and take charges when appropriate.)

"MeloBall" Spoiler alert: StarMelo lovers should skip this.

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