nixluva wrote:I've been in these long running arguments with some of the guys around here about the Knicks offense. The opposition insists that this is just me going off in some kind of rant about MDA and not a legit purely BB argument about the way this team plays ball. My contention has been that there was nothing wrong with MDA's offense and that in fact Melo could easily excel in the offense so long as it's executed properly and everyone buys in. Funny thing is that on a few occasions Woody has actually used the old plays and THIS TIME Melo bought in and the team succeeded at executing.

1. Get the ball up the court quickly. This doesn't mean you have to be running SSOL speed! Just don't go so slow that you use up the 8 seconds you have to get over half court. Even Baron and Bibby are capable of this. Don't pound the ball into the ground either pass it or start a PnR and get into the motion set. KEEP IT MOVING!!!

2. Spread the floor and get into motion! Once you spread the floor and look to get the ball to Melo or set a pick it's not necessary to always hold the ball and look to go ISO right away. Run the set and move the ball 1st and then come back to the ISO after at least one series of passes to move the defense.

Here are some pics to demonstrate just what i'm talking about. When Woody went back to the MDA sets after the team had basically come to a dead stop offensively it worked very well. One particular game was against Boston:

Spread the floor

Get Player Movement and Ball Movement

Here's the video to further show how well it can work if well executed. You must keep proper spacing and make good quick passes. Moving without the ball is essential. There's less bumping into each other because they're running actual plays!!!

rest of the team scoring. Keeping everyone moving is a huge key to making it work. I know that most of the Knick fans think that MDA was bad for Melo and the Knicks, but my contention has always been that wanting the team to play TEAM oriented BB was for the good of the team and if Melo buys in it will work as it did in this game and a few others that they went to this. Problem is that Woody hasn't been fully committed to this and so the team lapsePlaying in a team oriented style isn't going to hurt Melo at all in fact it will free him up and his teammates will be able to give him help. He'll still get off and get ISO looks, but it will be easier if the defense is also worried about thes back into standing around and ISO ball.

there was nothing wrong with MDA's offense.. it just didn't completely cater to melo so he whined and sulked and got his coach fired.... Plain and simple.. Iso ball is not going to beat good teams in the playoffs, and honestly woody can't change that now... that is the knicks identity.. our only hope is for amare to discover some sort of offense so that we an run so more pick and roll.. but good luck with that happenning..

Keeping everyone moving is a huge key to making it work. I know that most of the Knick fans think that MDA was bad for Melo and the Knicks, but my contention has always been that wanting the team to play TEAM oriented BB was for the good of the team and if Melo buys in it will work as it did in this game and a few others that they went to this.

I agree with you 100%, but again, dantoni tried this.. Melo said no.. dantoni got fired... now here we stand down 0-1... I hope woodson has an answer and fast...

mrKnickShot wrote:They played alot of Amare at the 5 with Melo at the 4 yesterday.

It did not work. Not that it is on Amare that it did not work - nothing worked.

That's because it's not just what position your playing but how you're actually executing the plays or better yet, if you're even running any actual plays. I saw a lot of packing and poor spacing. Guys bumping into each other with no clear direction.

Here are some pics of 4 different plays and note the spacing and they way the defense is setup:

You can clearly see the HORRID spacing and they aren't really running any plays. If the ball comes back out there's no path to make passes and force the defense to cover the entire court. Guys are all packed together and STAT is in the way, as is Tyson on another play. Guys on the perimeter aren't really ready to receive a pass or shoot, cut or anything. These sets are MARKEDLY different than the ones I posted earlier in the thread. We make it easier to defend when we go ISO like this with no spacing or off the ball movement. Just look at the plays from the Celtics game and then come back and look at these possessions, can't even call them plays.

nixluva wrote:Another simple move is to run more plays with Melo on the move! We used to go with a few curl plays for Melo where he could catch and shoot from midrange! Didn't see that in game one either. If you don't go with the spread offense then having Melo come off screens would be good too cus there's no time for the D to double or shift quickly enough. The same goes for STAT, JR n Fields. Movement is the key.

Nixluva, I really like your analysis, very interesting points, great job.

We are simply over matched with the Heat, a reason why many of us didn't want to face them in round 1. In another round, we can at least hope they get warn out a bit by another team.
I agree with NixLuva 100%, we need good spacing, movement off the ball, and ball movement to adjust to the speed/defense of the Miami Heat. Simply put, we must make EVERY player
on the floor a threat and utilize them, not force feed Melo and stand around while doing so, it just isn't going to work. It doesn't help that TC/Amare/and Melo do not work well together but its game 2 and we still have to try out best and play the correct way, finding the right formula against this defense. A team like Phoenix, with 4 shooters, a smart PG, ball movement, cutting, PnR, movement off the ball, played them tough and either won the game during the season or was up through 4 and 1/2 quarters. Nash doesn't have that athletic ability but he is very smart and he got his team to play very cohesive, and on the same page. Nash at his age doesn't have the size/quickness, and ability to penetrate either vs this type of defense, but he uses the spacing, picks, and shooters very well.

We do not chuck 3 point shots, but force the Miami defense to pick spots, and then shoot the shots off good ball movement, and allow our players to cut in for offensive rebounds.
We cannot afford to turn the ball over vs this type of team as they are too dangerous in the transition game to defend. That means, we cannot allow the Heat to also not be able to get position easily with a rebound and force the fast break situations. This is where we CANNOT take bad shots, right in to to Heat's defense, with good rebounding position over us.

When we have Melo and STAT playing apart from each other the offense works the same way, because we can spread them out and let our best scorer operate with more room and less help defenders. Also it opens up opportunities for the role players to get shots and attack the basket.

jrodmc wrote:

tkf wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote::FWD mike.woodson@cabevision.com

Just forwarded to Woodson. I wish we could have done this before game 1. It's also a pity that we don't have a PG that can handle the stagnation issue (which I very very much believe is a huge issue) - perhaps you can suggest one.

Clearly you didn't notice that Bibby could easily start the play with a Pick from Tyson or STAT. I'd ask you to take a look at the rest of the floor when the play is progressing. Notice how JR and Novak are moving at the same time as TYson and you can see that this forces the defense to chase and not be able to just focus on Melo or double Bibby. IF they do dbl Bibby it's up to his teammates to come out a show so that he has someone to pass to at an easy angle. But overall the spacing of the floor in such a drastic manner as shown in the pics I posted is what creates the problem for the defense. You're making them defend over a larger area of the court instead of packing it in with all of our players inside the 3pt line and in the paint bumping into each other.

See I put the pictures in there just for you!

Woody already has seen this work cuz he did it for a couple of games before he basically went back to not calling set plays.

Wow!! We might actually agree here

I have been the most adamant proponent of playing Bibby over BD. BD sucks and could not even make it into your pictures.

The offense is definitely better with Bibby in there - I am guessing that Woody is playing BD over Bibby because he is a defensive minded coach and BD is a far far far better defender. It's the better of the two evils. Though, I hate it.

The problem with Bibby too is that he is limited in the number of minutes that he can play (because he already has great grand kids) and teams force him into switching onto one of their bigs and he gets demolished.

Bibby can't throw the ball in the ocean if he was sitting on a boat at this point in his career but he is miles better for the offensive flow than BD.

Woody has said many times that we have to get into our offense quicker (referring to how long it takes BD to get up the court and into the offense) and after each time that he says it, BD says "its on me - I have to get the ball up the court quicker)

Bibby also moves the ball much quicker, makes better decisions, and does not still view himself as an offensive star.

So, what do we do when BD is in there?

bibby can't hit a shot anymore and he moves like a 85 year old man.... He is a waste..

sending amare to the bench is not going to happen, but some of us already knew he and melo were not a good fit.

melo has to work harder off the ball to get the ball.. the heat are too good defensively to just let him stand there and post on the elbow..

Iso ball is easy to defend...

If it's so easy to defend then why did Lebron get 32 without breaking a sweat, except when flopping?

You mean it's easy to defend US when we play iso ball...

The difference in my mind is that Lebron isn't posting up he's facing up and he's a legit threat to make a pass. This is a huge difference in the type of ISO we're talking about. Lebron has no problem coming out to get the ball on the perimeter and driving thru and around defenders if he has to. Melo doesn't do that as much. Lebron is a freak athlete and has the handle and burst of speed to make it hard to stop him once he gets going. Melo is quick, but not in the same way and he doesn't have the same explosion of Lebron.

We can run Melo ISO successfully so long as there is great spacing so that he can have room to operate. We also didn't front Lebron like they did Melo very aggressively. Mainly because Lebron can function as a PG and just come get the ball and operate on the perimeter. There's really a huge difference in the type of ISO possessions players use. With Melo having his back to the defense it's a different way you can defend that.

misterearl wrote:Fix The Knicks Offense

Save the silly strategy diagrams and video clips. Save the unfavorable matchups for another day.

Please save the amateur armchair coaching.

Find Mike Woodson an aggressive and healthy point guard.

It ain't that deep.

This is one of the dumbest responses to a thread i've read. Can you for once deal with the realities of the situation? These are actual realistic things this team can and should do to fix the problems with the offense with the players we ACTUALLY HAVE!!! Of course we'd all love to get an improvement at PG, but that isn't likely to happen in this series.

I'm also highly offended by the notion that what we've been discussing is "amateur armchair coaching". I know that what i've proposed is coming from plays this team and coach have actually run in games that we won and were extremely successful overall for this team. You haven't come up with anything to refute what we've been suggesting or come up with some alternative idea. What have you got to add but another dumb suggestion? Please save that for some thread you've created. I like dealing with factual and non-fictional solutions here in this thread.

mrKnickShot wrote:

1. Get the ball up the court quickly. This doesn't mean you have to be running SSOL speed! Just don't go so slow that you use up the 8 seconds you have to get over half court. Even Baron and Bibby are capable of this. Don't pound the ball into the ground either pass it or start a PnR and get into the motion set. KEEP IT MOVING!

Not possible. Baron Davis is incapable of pushing tempo. At his best, Mike Bibby can go fast for 5 minutes. In the same manner Jeremy Lin was worn down, these two old dudes are both wearing down faster against the withering attacks of the Heat. Shump, our ONLY athletic option is done. Ergo, this suggestion is moot.

2. Spread the floor and get into motion! Once you spread the floor and look to get the ball to Melo or set a pick it's not necessary to always hold the ball and look to go ISO right away. Run the set and move the ball 1st and then come back to the ISO after at least one series of passes to move the defense.

Spread the floor with what? And at what point in the shot clock? It works likes dominoes...

The guards have struggled to advance the ball past half court and into the offense with ten seconds on he clock. Miami is playing defense like a bunch of crazed dogs and the absolute best you can offer is "spread the floor"? Hilarious. The net result, without a player who can consistently create off the dribble? (drum roll please)

A three point attempt.

Next

misterearl wrote:Exactly

mrKnickShot wrote:

1. Get the ball up the court quickly. This doesn't mean you have to be running SSOL speed! Just don't go so slow that you use up the 8 seconds you have to get over half court. Even Baron and Bibby are capable of this. Don't pound the ball into the ground either pass it or start a PnR and get into the motion set. KEEP IT MOVING!

Not possible. Baron Davis is incapable of pushing tempo. At his best, Mike Bibby can go fast for 5 minutes. In the same manner Jeremy Lin was worn down, these two old dudes are both wearing down faster against the withering attacks of the Heat. Shump, our ONLY athletic option is done. Ergo, this suggestion is moot.

2. Spread the floor and get into motion! Once you spread the floor and look to get the ball to Melo or set a pick it's not necessary to always hold the ball and look to go ISO right away. Run the set and move the ball 1st and then come back to the ISO after at least one series of passes to move the defense.

Spread the floor with what? And at what point in the shot clock? It works likes dominoes...

The guards have struggled to advance the ball past half court and into the offense with ten seconds on he clock. Miami is playing defense like a bunch of crazed dogs and the absolute best you can offer is "spread the floor"? Hilarious. The net result, without a player who can consistently create off the dribble? (drum roll please)

A three point attempt.

Next

Misterearl,

YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT!!!

Didn't you see the pictures? That proves that we need to spread it - Pictures don't LIE!! They state FACTS!

Context you ask? Semantics!

Now yes the Heat shut Novak & JR down, but why was it so easy for them to do so? Novak was mostly just standing in the corner all game. Now some have said he can't do anything else and that the Knicks had no chance against the Heat D, but I beg to differ. The Knicks could most certainly have used more Motion plays. Used Screens to help Novak get better looks. Also the ball movement wasn't there. Rather than having the Heat defense constantly moving for the entire set, the Knicks got stagnant and then by the time they did make a pass Novak was covered again.

I posted this play to give an example of the kind of OFF THE BALL movement the Knicks should've had in this Heat series. Spread the floor is only one aspect of the play. You have to also get Player Movement and Ball Movement. Notice that more of the Knicks players are actually in motion in this set and it forces the defense to move with them or possibly give up and open shot. This leads to better scoring opportunities because there's more one on one defense and sometimes you have a wide open player.

We didn't see this kind of coordinated motion and ball movement from this team in this series. It's easy to say that they couldn't score against the Heat when all we saw was stand still and watch Melo offense. I believe that it would've worked if they had been working on this kind of offense all along and had it perfected. When you do it enough to make it second nature, the passes and cuts are executed MUCH faster and this leads to success. The Knicks were moving in slow motion cuz they weren't prepared to have an answer to what the defense was doing. If you hesitate against the Heat you lose. This is why the Mavs beat them. They were much faster with their ball movement and more accurate. They had them chasing the ball all game.

These are plays using pretty much similar personnel and off the ball movement along with a spread floor to make the defense have to cover more ground. every split second counts against a fast defense like the Heat. The plays must be executed quickly so that the defense can't easily figure out how to stop what you're doing. Also there's a bit of misdirection with the high PnR starting off the play.

CrushAlot wrote:Jeffries is setting amazing screens in each of those photos. Maybe if you could fix his knee it would help the offense. He is barely able to play at this point and I doubt that he plays on Sunday after not coming back into the game last night after taking that charge. There are a lot of obstacles this team is facing. A healthy Lin, Jeffries, Shump and Amare would fix a lot.

For sure this team is down some really significant pieces, but my only issue is that if you're going to lose do so playing your best ball. Playing smart and as a team. This losing playing awful BB doesn't cut it no matter who we have playing. We're not even going down swinging. That's where running more actual offensively smart set plays would help. If you don't have overwhelming talent you must execute at a high level. The Knicks have been playing Pick up game level!!!