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One Game Out Of The Sixth Seed
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CrushAlot
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4/27/2012  5:57 PM
y2zipper wrote:
fishmike wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
fishmike wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:
fishmike wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:Yea those 24 losses from the previous regime did indeed cost them higher seeding, but let's let that go because we're in for a major dog fight with the biggest bullies on the block. If we can just split the first 2 games, we can make this a grind it out dogfight. BEAT THE HEAT! BEAT THE HEAT!
previous regime? Did we make a huge midseason trade? I thought it was the same group of players.

I'm pretty sure MDA, Dan D'Antoni, and Phil Weber left with him.

oh good to know... I remember being pissed when Weber shot 9-27 in that loss to Orlando, or when DAntoni shot 5-14 in that loss to Cle.

My bad

are you seriously telling me you didn't notice a difference in strategy?

yes, melo's effort level is one thing. but the coaching was a major upgrade. the strategy was designed to actually fit the talent on the roster.

MDA did a horrible job. a big part of his job is getting melo and amar'e to buy in and to design a scheme that uses his talent to the best of their ability.

he did neither. why bother defending him.

I will always defend a coach when a player's effort is involved. MDA failed with Melo. Tried point forward, tried playing off the ball... it didnt work and it cost him his job. I have no problem with that. Its the nature of the business. But when I have brought up Melo's previous playoff failures the most common excuse is unfavorable matchups. All Im saying is who's fault is that this year? Did MDA do a good job? No. Is Woodson better? For this team 100% yes. But once again we have another scape goat dont we?

My point is simple. Knicks are 7th because of the players. Too many poor efforts that cost us games.

Im happy with the direction of the team and the roster and the coach. We are lucky to have good players. I like every guy on our roster. But if we get swept its not because of a bad matchup. Its because we had guys mail it in costing us games in the standings.

Fair? Unfair?

That's a fair point. The Knicks were unable to take advantage of an easy schedule at the beginning of the year and that point remains the same whether you want to scapegoat Mike D'Antoni or scapegoat the players. This current incarnation of the team is going to have to beat Miami or Chicago at some point, but it'd be nice to be 100% healthy going into the playoffs for once.

Carmelo in his career hasn't been a much different player in the playoffs than he is in the regular season. I understand he hasn't played on a team that's won a title, but he did get to the WCF when he played on a team that had a roster that's up-to-par. This year, he doesn't have that crutch to fall back on even though Lin's hurt and the Heat are an unfavorable matchup. I'm more afraid that Mike Woodson's going to be judged on what happens here, and I don't think that's particularly fair.


For the first 15 games of the year for the four years D'Antoni was in NY his record is 23-37. His teams always fall behind and have to work their way back into relevance after his training camps. Going 18-24 this year buried the Knicks. It took an incredible run by Woodson and his team to come back from the hole they were in.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
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mrKnickShot
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4/27/2012  6:25 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
y2zipper wrote:
fishmike wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
fishmike wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:
fishmike wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:Yea those 24 losses from the previous regime did indeed cost them higher seeding, but let's let that go because we're in for a major dog fight with the biggest bullies on the block. If we can just split the first 2 games, we can make this a grind it out dogfight. BEAT THE HEAT! BEAT THE HEAT!
previous regime? Did we make a huge midseason trade? I thought it was the same group of players.

I'm pretty sure MDA, Dan D'Antoni, and Phil Weber left with him.

oh good to know... I remember being pissed when Weber shot 9-27 in that loss to Orlando, or when DAntoni shot 5-14 in that loss to Cle.

My bad

are you seriously telling me you didn't notice a difference in strategy?

yes, melo's effort level is one thing. but the coaching was a major upgrade. the strategy was designed to actually fit the talent on the roster.

MDA did a horrible job. a big part of his job is getting melo and amar'e to buy in and to design a scheme that uses his talent to the best of their ability.

he did neither. why bother defending him.

I will always defend a coach when a player's effort is involved. MDA failed with Melo. Tried point forward, tried playing off the ball... it didnt work and it cost him his job. I have no problem with that. Its the nature of the business. But when I have brought up Melo's previous playoff failures the most common excuse is unfavorable matchups. All Im saying is who's fault is that this year? Did MDA do a good job? No. Is Woodson better? For this team 100% yes. But once again we have another scape goat dont we?

My point is simple. Knicks are 7th because of the players. Too many poor efforts that cost us games.

Im happy with the direction of the team and the roster and the coach. We are lucky to have good players. I like every guy on our roster. But if we get swept its not because of a bad matchup. Its because we had guys mail it in costing us games in the standings.

Fair? Unfair?

That's a fair point. The Knicks were unable to take advantage of an easy schedule at the beginning of the year and that point remains the same whether you want to scapegoat Mike D'Antoni or scapegoat the players. This current incarnation of the team is going to have to beat Miami or Chicago at some point, but it'd be nice to be 100% healthy going into the playoffs for once.

Carmelo in his career hasn't been a much different player in the playoffs than he is in the regular season. I understand he hasn't played on a team that's won a title, but he did get to the WCF when he played on a team that had a roster that's up-to-par. This year, he doesn't have that crutch to fall back on even though Lin's hurt and the Heat are an unfavorable matchup. I'm more afraid that Mike Woodson's going to be judged on what happens here, and I don't think that's particularly fair.


For the first 15 games of the year for the four years D'Antoni was in NY his record is 23-37. His teams always fall behind and have to work their way back into relevance after his training camps. Going 18-24 this year buried the Knicks. It took an incredible run by Woodson and his team to come back from the hole they were in.

Small Sample Size!!

y2zipper
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4/27/2012  6:34 PM
18-24 isn't a bad start. That's like 2/3 of the compressed season and did kill us, but blame doesn't just fall on D'Antoni for that. D'Antoni also coached really bad teams his first two years in New York. You should probably look at D'Antoni's record to start the season in Phoenix also. That'll give you a better indication of how good he is at the beginning of seasons.
CrushAlot
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4/27/2012  7:12 PM
y2zipper wrote:18-24 isn't a bad start. That's like 2/3 of the compressed season and did kill us, but blame doesn't just fall on D'Antoni for that. D'Antoni also coached really bad teams his first two years in New York. You should probably look at D'Antoni's record to start the season in Phoenix also. That'll give you a better indication of how good he is at the beginning of seasons.
Aside from his first year in Phoenix he had a tremendous run there. However, that success never transferred to NY and I think it gives merit to the idea that he is a roster specific coach.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
Killa4luv
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4/27/2012  7:26 PM
fishmike wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
fishmike wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:
fishmike wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:Yea those 24 losses from the previous regime did indeed cost them higher seeding, but let's let that go because we're in for a major dog fight with the biggest bullies on the block. If we can just split the first 2 games, we can make this a grind it out dogfight. BEAT THE HEAT! BEAT THE HEAT!
previous regime? Did we make a huge midseason trade? I thought it was the same group of players.

I'm pretty sure MDA, Dan D'Antoni, and Phil Weber left with him.

oh good to know... I remember being pissed when Weber shot 9-27 in that loss to Orlando, or when DAntoni shot 5-14 in that loss to Cle.

My bad

are you seriously telling me you didn't notice a difference in strategy?

yes, melo's effort level is one thing. but the coaching was a major upgrade. the strategy was designed to actually fit the talent on the roster.

MDA did a horrible job. a big part of his job is getting melo and amar'e to buy in and to design a scheme that uses his talent to the best of their ability.

he did neither. why bother defending him.

I will always defend a coach when a player's effort is involved. MDA failed with Melo. Tried point forward, tried playing off the ball... it didnt work and it cost him his job. I have no problem with that. Its the nature of the business. But when I have brought up Melo's previous playoff failures the most common excuse is unfavorable matchups. All Im saying is who's fault is that this year? Did MDA do a good job? No. Is Woodson better? For this team 100% yes. But once again we have another scape goat dont we?

My point is simple. Knicks are 7th because of the players. Too many poor efforts that cost us games.

Im happy with the direction of the team and the roster and the coach. We are lucky to have good players. I like every guy on our roster. But if we get swept its not because of a bad matchup. Its because we had guys mail it in costing us games in the standings.

Fair? Unfair?


I don't think its fair. We are not 7th because of the players. We are 7th because 2/3 of the season we had a coach who thinks every player is an equally valuable cog in his small ball philosophy.

Ask yourself this question, with Woodson as coach from the beginning of the year, are we even having a discussion about the 6th or 7th seed? I confidently say no.

I blame D'antoni, its hard to go out there every night playing for a coach you don't believe in with a system you know doesn't work and undervalues all of the tremendous things you can do on the court. it is demoralizing and you just can't play at your best under those circumstances.

I never wanted him as coach to begin with and I'm very happy he's gone. Nice guy don't get me wrong, but not the coach for the Knicks roster or style of play. It is neither surprise nor coincidence that the Knicks have done so well after his departure even with an injured Lin and Stat for most of the time.

nyk4ever
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4/27/2012  7:45 PM
yeah let's blame it on mda when the teams best player was either injured or when he wasn't injured, decided not to give anywhere near 100% guys like lin, jeffries, novak, chandler, etc etc had no problem playing for mda while melo was injured.

mda isn't innocent here, he could have done a better job with melo, but i'm still mad at melo for completely dogging it because he didn't like how coach was playing him. that's marbury stuff and im sick of it.

melo is playing out of this world right now and im loving every second of it, but i can only wonder what seed the knicks would be if had been playing this way under mda.

"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
ramtour420
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4/27/2012  8:30 PM
nyk4ever wrote:yeah let's blame it on mda when the teams best player was either injured or when he wasn't injured, decided not to give anywhere near 100% guys like lin, jeffries, novak, chandler, etc etc had no problem playing for mda while melo was injured.

mda isn't innocent here, he could have done a better job with melo, but i'm still mad at melo for completely dogging it because he didn't like how coach was playing him. that's marbury stuff and im sick of it.

melo is playing out of this world right now and im loving every second of it, but i can only wonder what seed the knicks would be if had been playing this way under mda.

Melo could not play this way for MDA. Not only because he was dogging it but also because MDA never wanted him to play like that. MDA needed to run everything through Lin. Melo at point forward was fun, but he is not at his best when he has to destribute. And before Lin emerged let's just say that MDA was looking pathetic. Remember all the talk about MDA needing a PG to do anything? Woodson did his thing without Lin, mostly.

Everything you have ever wanted is on the other side of fear- George Adair
CrushAlot
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4/27/2012  8:33 PM
ramtour420 wrote:
nyk4ever wrote:yeah let's blame it on mda when the teams best player was either injured or when he wasn't injured, decided not to give anywhere near 100% guys like lin, jeffries, novak, chandler, etc etc had no problem playing for mda while melo was injured.

mda isn't innocent here, he could have done a better job with melo, but i'm still mad at melo for completely dogging it because he didn't like how coach was playing him. that's marbury stuff and im sick of it.

melo is playing out of this world right now and im loving every second of it, but i can only wonder what seed the knicks would be if had been playing this way under mda.

Melo could not play this way for MDA. Not only because he was dogging it but also because MDA never wanted him to play like that. MDA needed to run everything through Lin. Melo at point forward was fun, but he is not at his best when he has to destribute. And before Lin emerged let's just say that MDA was looking pathetic. Remember all the talk about MDA needing a PG to do anything? Woodson did his thing without Lin, mostly.


He was 8-15 (29% winning percentage) just after 1/3 of the season was over. He buried the team. Credit to Woodson for figuring things out and as Melo says, "holding guys accountable."
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
loweyecue
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4/27/2012  8:34 PM
nyk4ever wrote:yeah let's blame it on mda when the teams best player was either injured or when he wasn't injured, decided not to give anywhere near 100% guys like lin, jeffries, novak, chandler, etc etc had no problem playing for mda while melo was injured.

mda isn't innocent here, he could have done a better job with melo, but i'm still mad at melo for completely dogging it because he didn't like how coach was playing him. that's marbury stuff and im sick of it.

melo is playing out of this world right now and im loving every second of it, but i can only wonder what seed the knicks would be if had been playing this way under mda.

Yup. Too much Melo mania here. 20Mil a year and he needs to be "coached" to give 100% effort - pathetic.

TKF on Melo ::....he is a punk, a jerk, a self absorbed out of shape, self aggrandizing, unprofessional, volume chucking coach killing playoff loser!!
nyk4ever
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4/27/2012  8:38 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
ramtour420 wrote:
nyk4ever wrote:yeah let's blame it on mda when the teams best player was either injured or when he wasn't injured, decided not to give anywhere near 100% guys like lin, jeffries, novak, chandler, etc etc had no problem playing for mda while melo was injured.

mda isn't innocent here, he could have done a better job with melo, but i'm still mad at melo for completely dogging it because he didn't like how coach was playing him. that's marbury stuff and im sick of it.

melo is playing out of this world right now and im loving every second of it, but i can only wonder what seed the knicks would be if had been playing this way under mda.

Melo could not play this way for MDA. Not only because he was dogging it but also because MDA never wanted him to play like that. MDA needed to run everything through Lin. Melo at point forward was fun, but he is not at his best when he has to destribute. And before Lin emerged let's just say that MDA was looking pathetic. Remember all the talk about MDA needing a PG to do anything? Woodson did his thing without Lin, mostly.


He was 8-15 (29% winning percentage) just after 1/3 of the season was over. He buried the team. Credit to Woodson for figuring things out and as Melo says, "holding guys accountable."

it's always encouraging to see a professional being paid 20million/yr that needs a coach to hold him accountable instead of being accountable to his teammates and team, himself.

"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
ramtour420
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4/27/2012  9:09 PM    LAST EDITED: 4/27/2012  9:10 PM
I think is coaches job to bring the best out of players. Whether by holding them accountable or by not doing that, but with intent to bring the best out. Let's please not pretend that Melo dogging it had nothing to do with MDA and his coaching.
Everything you have ever wanted is on the other side of fear- George Adair
loweyecue
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4/27/2012  9:28 PM
ramtour420 wrote:I think is coaches job to bring the best out of players. Whether by holding them accountable or by not doing that, but with intent to bring the best out. Let's please not pretend that Melo dogging it had nothing to do with MDA and his coaching.

But it's not the players job to try to do what the coach is asking them instead of simply tuning him out? Good point.

TKF on Melo ::....he is a punk, a jerk, a self absorbed out of shape, self aggrandizing, unprofessional, volume chucking coach killing playoff loser!!
CrushAlot
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4/27/2012  9:36 PM
nyk4ever wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
ramtour420 wrote:
nyk4ever wrote:yeah let's blame it on mda when the teams best player was either injured or when he wasn't injured, decided not to give anywhere near 100% guys like lin, jeffries, novak, chandler, etc etc had no problem playing for mda while melo was injured.

mda isn't innocent here, he could have done a better job with melo, but i'm still mad at melo for completely dogging it because he didn't like how coach was playing him. that's marbury stuff and im sick of it.

melo is playing out of this world right now and im loving every second of it, but i can only wonder what seed the knicks would be if had been playing this way under mda.

Melo could not play this way for MDA. Not only because he was dogging it but also because MDA never wanted him to play like that. MDA needed to run everything through Lin. Melo at point forward was fun, but he is not at his best when he has to destribute. And before Lin emerged let's just say that MDA was looking pathetic. Remember all the talk about MDA needing a PG to do anything? Woodson did his thing without Lin, mostly.


He was 8-15 (29% winning percentage) just after 1/3 of the season was over. He buried the team. Credit to Woodson for figuring things out and as Melo says, "holding guys accountable."

it's always encouraging to see a professional being paid 20million/yr that needs a coach to hold him accountable instead of being accountable to his teammates and team, himself.

"the confidence that (Woodson) instilled into everybody, the belief that he has in everybody. Just his coaching style, the way he's coached, (he's) kind of a hard-nosed coach. (He) holds everybody accountable out there, saying that everybody is responsible for their own actions. I would love to see him back around here."

Amare Stoudemire echoed that sentiment, but not to the same extent as Anthony.

"Coach Woodson has done a great job for us. He's done a phenomenal, phenomenal job," Stoudemire said. "I love his attitude. I love his coaching style. It would be nice (to have him back)."


http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/post/_/id/17460/melo-absolutely-wants-woodson-back
However he got the job, Woodson is reaching these guys and the results have been much better. I really think Melo's issues were more about injury, and misuse. He wasn't the guy that went to management and asked for the other guy to be moved out.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
nyk4ever
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4/27/2012  10:39 PM    LAST EDITED: 4/27/2012  10:40 PM
i love melo and the way he's playing now. he is the main reason where we are and he's giving it every ounce that he's got. going to be very clear about that.

to portray him as innocent in the mda case is being quite presumptuous if you ask me. if melo told dolan that he wanted mda to stick around, he would still be coaching. from watching all the games melo played under mda this year, it was pretty obvious he wasn't himself and was not playing with anywhere near the effort level that he is right now.

it's obvious woodson has had a very positive effect on this team and unless philjax wants the job, woodson should keep it. i have no issues with woodson whatsoever, i just think what melo did was pretty diva'ish.

"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
gunsnewing
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4/27/2012  10:52 PM
Problem is melo is not a jumpshooter. Thats why he looked so bad under dantoni who wanted him in shawne williams old role while the offense ran through Lin. Of course Melo is going to look average. His strengths that made him the star he is were not being utilized
CrushAlot
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4/27/2012  10:57 PM
nyk4ever wrote:i love melo and the way he's playing now. he is the main reason where we are and he's giving it every ounce that he's got. going to be very clear about that.

to portray him as innocent in the mda case is being quite presumptuous if you ask me. if melo told dolan that he wanted mda to stick around, he would still be coaching. from watching all the games melo played under mda this year, it was pretty obvious he wasn't himself and was not playing with anywhere near the effort level that he is right now.

it's obvious woodson has had a very positive effect on this team and unless philjax wants the job, woodson should keep it. i have no issues with woodson whatsoever, i just think what melo did was pretty diva'ish.

I haven't heard or read anything other than D'Antoni resigned. I also have heard that he asked that Melo be traded. D'Antoni had a 4 year tenure in NY that could at best be described as mediorce. He worked for a great gm that blindly supported him for the first three years in NY and in his fourth year he was given a roster with more talent than he ever had while with the Knicks. This years roster was built in a more traditional manner but the talent was there. D'Antoni wasn't able to make it work. I also believe Melo when he said that he didn't know anything was wrong between himself and D'Antoni. Again it is just my opinion but I think D'Antoni tried to present as easy going but was wrapped pretty tight. I think the dream teamers(including Melo) thought of him as just an easy going, laid back guy. I don't think he communicated to Melo that there were any issues. Melo said in an interview that he told D'Antoni to come to him if he had any issues.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
CashMoney
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4/27/2012  11:02 PM
nyk4ever wrote:i love melo and the way he's playing now. he is the main reason where we are and he's giving it every ounce that he's got. going to be very clear about that.

to portray him as innocent in the mda case is being quite presumptuous if you ask me. if melo told dolan that he wanted mda to stick around, he would still be coaching. from watching all the games melo played under mda this year, it was pretty obvious he wasn't himself and was not playing with anywhere near the effort level that he is right now.

it's obvious woodson has had a very positive effect on this team and unless philjax wants the job, woodson should keep it. i have no issues with woodson whatsoever, i just think what melo did was pretty diva'ish.

I was a MDA defender for a while I can't remember the game specifically but I think it was a few games before he QUIT that I wanted his head on a plater. At the end of the day the NBA is a star players league. If the star tunes out the coach or wants the coach gone the coach is gone. Who know what really happened but if MDA asked the Knicks to choose between him and Melo he should have been fired!

It's the coaches job to get the most out of their players regardless how much money the players are making. MDA himself said the Knicks had the talent to win it all...he didn't get the job done, he's gone, Woody is in, Woody led us to 18-6 and hopefully a 1st round upset.

Blue & Orange 4 Life!
One Game Out Of The Sixth Seed

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