arkrud wrote:Winning=efficiency in NBA and probably in any sport and any business.
Novak is top efficiency player.
Melo is low efficiency volume shooter. Always was an will never change. He is not a baby in NBA.
He was the only scoring option on Nags and his low efficiency was hidden.

This is entirely correct

TripleThreat wrote:

crzymdups wrote:novak is a situational player.

If you took off your raging homer glasses, I'd posit that the best arguments against more Novak are that

1) Three point shooters tend to be streaky. And many are "rhythm" shooters. Meaning they need to get their stroke going at the cost of misses.

2) Compared to Melo, on defense, Novak would get fewer calls, this all aside from being less athletic. Refs are simply not going to foul out Melo playing defense unless Melo does something specifically and openly egregious.

3) It's unclear how Novak would react to greater usage. He would take more of a beating from defenders, that's for sure, which might impact his shooting.

The best argument for Novak are

1) He has consistently shown he can bust a zone defense, maybe the only Knick who has.

2) Novak is not a rhythm shooter. He's just a pure gunner, warm, hot or cold, you'll know whether you are getting efficiency or not from him right off the bat that night

3) As a legitimate stretch 4, he spaces the floor and opens up the interior for whomever is playing center for the Knicks.

4) If Melo is not exploiting getting the the free throw line or using the low post, then Novak is the only true volume scorer the Knicks have in terms of actual production. That Melo "can" pour it in doesn't negate the fact that Novak is the only one who "is" pouring it in.

5) Despite just hanging out behind the line, Novak does show good shot selection. There are plenty of times he passes the ball out even if a shot is possible.

I would say for Novak, he gives you the best efficiency relative to actual usage/minutes compared to Melo right now.

I think Novak works best , IMHO, with a combo with Lin. I think TOGETHER, they are truly more efficient than Melo. Lin's penetration opens up shooting for Novak. Novaks floor spacing opens up driving lanes for Lin. Right now Lin is the only penetrator that causes complete and total havoc for a defense.

my "raging homer glasses". from the guy who defends lin over melo in any circumstance.

if you actually read what i was saying you'd realize that i like all the knicks and i never trash any of them needlessly. i think melo is important to this team, just as i think lin is, just as i think tyson is, just as i think amar'e is. those are our four best players. like it or not. we go as far as they take us.

shumpert, novak, jeffries, landry are all extremely important, too, but they fill in the edges around the games of our four complete players.

it's much easier to find a guy like novak - when you have your foundation built and the need for situational players becomes clear - where they fit, what they need to do. situational players like novak usually do better on teams where they have defined, but limited roles. aka they aren't asked to do that much.

anyone who is trying to state with a straight face that novak is a better player than melo, more important to this team, or wouldn't perform far less efficiently if he was asked to carry the weight melo carries probably needs to take a long look in the mirror and brush their teeth or something.

melo is a very good basketball player. he's paid to carry the load and he is doing that, whether his numbers are his career best or not. to say that a guy like novak could handle the pressure of being the focal point of opposing defenses is so wrong that i actually laugh every time i read this thread.

carry on, you jokesters.

SteveSmith wrote:

nehemiah wrote:Maybe in Germany (where you are at) this would make sense (if you replace any reference of Melo above with Dirk). Right now, Melo is 5th option because he can't be the 10th option (he would probably quit on the team even more at that point). Melo needs to fake the shot and PASS the ball.

Please keep in mind (this is no exaggeration) that if Lin played like the current Melo as Linsanity started, Jeremy would be back in the D-league and rightfully so.

Oh no! There you are wrong my friend If a star player in f.e. football (soccer for you) sucks, he sits a game or 3. He would nag and bitch about it after some time, maybe demand a trade. But he at least would get a rest to get his mind and body right, because if you cant deliver you are hurting the team.

Believe you me: I would love for the NBA to be more team oriented, but its not. (Read the newest ThripleThreat post. Its long, as usual, but good, also as usual)

There is no way I would be willing to put Melo in the same category as Dirk, but for us Knicks, he is the asset. And as that, we need to get him going as soon as possible. And therefore, look for ways to get him in a position were he cant fail aka. as close to the basket with noone around

For everything else, I totally agree with you: Fake the shot and pass when your not entirely open. Go for the rebound. Box out. Deny the ball. Muscle your opponent out of good position! Just dont shoot when your not open!

Actually football is a good analogy here (soccer football, not NFL). I have a lot of knowledge here as I've played and watched a ton.

The situation is akin to Kaka and Real Madrid. Here is a player who was a world's player of the year, and is in his late 20's, but when he transferred to Real Madrid from AC Milan, he had some injuries and a decline in performance. So now a German (Ozil) often takes the attacking midfield starting role. Kaka (acknowledged as one of the world's best players) sits often on the bench.

I LOVE Kaka. Melo is in a similar situation, minus all the charm and goodness nor effort that Kaka has. Kaka is in his late 20's (like Melo), was the top player in the world (Melo was never considered the absolute best in the league), and has a ton of charm and goodness and effort (way better reputation than Melo). Given all that, if Kaka is sitting, why is Melo still featured as one of our top options?

loweyecue wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

crzymdups wrote:novak is a situational player.

If you took off your raging homer glasses, I'd posit that the best arguments against more Novak are that

1) Three point shooters tend to be streaky. And many are "rhythm" shooters. Meaning they need to get their stroke going at the cost of misses.

2) Compared to Melo, on defense, Novak would get fewer calls, this all aside from being less athletic. Refs are simply not going to foul out Melo playing defense unless Melo does something specifically and openly egregious.

3) It's unclear how Novak would react to greater usage. He would take more of a beating from defenders, that's for sure, which might impact his shooting.

The best argument for Novak are

1) He has consistently shown he can bust a zone defense, maybe the only Knick who has.

2) Novak is not a rhythm shooter. He's just a pure gunner, warm, hot or cold, you'll know whether you are getting efficiency or not from him right off the bat that night

3) As a legitimate stretch 4, he spaces the floor and opens up the interior for whomever is playing center for the Knicks.

4) If Melo is not exploiting getting the the free throw line or using the low post, then Novak is the only true volume scorer the Knicks have in terms of actual production. That Melo "can" pour it in doesn't negate the fact that Novak is the only one who "is" pouring it in.

5) Despite just hanging out behind the line, Novak does show good shot selection. There are plenty of times he passes the ball out even if a shot is possible.

I would say for Novak, he gives you the best efficiency relative to actual usage/minutes compared to Melo right now.

I think Novak works best , IMHO, with a combo with Lin. I think TOGETHER, they are truly more efficient than Melo. Lin's penetration opens up shooting for Novak. Novaks floor spacing opens up driving lanes for Lin. Right now Lin is the only penetrator that causes complete and total havoc for a defense.

my "raging homer glasses". from the guy who defends lin over melo in any circumstance.

if you actually read what i was saying you'd realize that i like all the knicks and i never trash any of them needlessly. i think melo is important to this team, just as i think lin is, just as i think tyson is, just as i think amar'e is. those are our four best players. like it or not. we go as far as they take us.

shumpert, novak, jeffries, landry are all extremely important, too, but they fill in the edges around the games of our four complete players.

it's much easier to find a guy like novak - when you have your foundation built and the need for situational players becomes clear - where they fit, what they need to do. situational players like novak usually do better on teams where they have defined, but limited roles. aka they aren't asked to do that much.

anyone who is trying to state with a straight face that novak is a better player than melo, more important to this team, or wouldn't perform far less efficiently if he was asked to carry the weight melo carries probably needs to take a long look in the mirror and brush their teeth or something.

melo is a very good basketball player. he's paid to carry the load and he is doing that, whether his numbers are his career best or not. to say that a guy like novak could handle the pressure of being the focal point of opposing defenses is so wrong that i actually laugh every time i read this thread.

carry on, you jokesters.

No one has suggested anywhere that Novak should replace Melo. You get all emotionally worked up about this. The idea of this thread is that Novak is producing at a phenomenal rate against what could be expected of a situational role player. Melo is putting up numbers worthy of a situational role player and is nowhere close to performing the way he needs to. Now you can argue that till you are blue in the face, I am stating my opinion and it won't change, till I see real production from Melo.

We just got blown out by the raptors and yes I had more faith in Novak being able to bring us back in the 4 th than I had in Melo in that particular game BASED ON how they were playing. And no I don't particularly enjoy feeling that way.

i think you have to be clear that novak and melo perform vastly different functions on this team and fill vastly different roles and there is no way novak could ever do what melo is doing.

novak is having an exceptional season as a situational player. he's one of the best situational players in the league - he hits three pointers at a great percentage and he hits a lot of them. the end.

melo is having a below average season as a focal point of the offense. yet, his very pressence and ability to get his own shot off and draw double and triple teams allows guys like novak to succeed, it gives them more open opportunities. melo, despite playing below his averages, is defended like a guy who is playing at his career averages or better. i wonder why that is? are all nba players and coaches just idiots?

the point is melo and novak do vastly different jobs on this team. novak is doing his limited job very well. i have no bones about him. melo is doing pretty well at his job, too, other than field goal percentage. he's averaging close to a career high in assists, right around his career rebounding numbers, still scoring 20ppg on a team with multiple scoring options.

people say melo isn't sacrificing enough of his game for the team and then when he does they say he's underperforming.

i don't have an emotional attachment to the issue, but i am sick of reading the same two ping-ponging arguments against melo by guys who clearly just have a bone to pick with melo no matter he does. i don't have a bone to pick with him. i didn't love the trade, but i got why they had to do it. i didn't love the way melo quit on MDA, but i also thought MDA was a flawed coach who would never win in the playoffs and didn't fit this very talented roster, so i understood that, too.

in the end, i want the knicks to be good. and i think melo is a big part of that. he's currently in the midst of sacrificing his game for the good of the team and the team is on a 6-1 stretch. it'd be nice if he found his groove on offense, but he's bringing a lot of good things to the team right now.

nehemiah wrote:Actually football is a good analogy here (soccer football, not NFL). I have a lot of knowledge here as I've played and watched a ton.

The situation is akin to Kaka and Real Madrid. Here is a player who was a world's player of the year, and is in his late 20's, but when he transferred to Real Madrid from AC Milan, he had some injuries and a decline in performance. So now a German (Ozil) often takes the attacking midfield starting role. Kaka (acknowledged as one of the world's best players) sits often on the bench.

I LOVE Kaka. Melo is in a similar situation, minus all the charm and goodness nor effort that Kaka has. Kaka is in his late 20's (like Melo), was the top player in the world (Melo was never considered the absolute best in the league), and has a ton of charm and goodness and effort (way better reputation than Melo). Given all that, if Kaka is sitting, why is Melo still featured as one of our top options?

The Kaka situation really is a good analogy. Is Novak our Özil now?

I think a few factors lead to Kaka sitting without much of an argument and Melo playing as top option while being out of form:

First and foremost: Kaka is a total class act who understands the concept of team and realizes that Mesut Özil is the better player (Yeah! And we will have a real chance to win Euro 2012, not in small parts because of him!).

Second: I think football has the big difference of 20+ guys on a roster. Its natural to not play. If it is in minor leagues or champions league, every player has bad times and therefore a smaller role. There are enough others to pick up the slack (maybe minus Leo Messi and C.Ronaldo)

Third: NBA is a stars league. Stars rule. Melo is a star. Therefore he rules. End of discussion.

Why do you think MDA has the bad standing he has in the NBA? He is heavily influenced by european team concepts. He is stubborn. He favors guys that give 100% while at the same time not only understanding, but living the team concept. I think thats the reason he does not get in players faces. He expects them to act according to those concepts and just do the right thing. Maybe he will have success with this approach, but since its not within the "rules" of NBA basketball, it will be hard for him.

Thats that. And while I am in favor to have a Mesut Özil playing in place of Melo when he is not good, I am realistic enough to understand that this is not going to work. He will break out of the slump and win big games, or he will be an wasted asset. So its the job of everybody in this organzation, to cater Melos every needs and put him in a spot to succeed.

Public disclaimer: Sorry for putting up MDA! I hope this will not lead to this being an endless Melo vs MDA thingy! Hmpf! Who am I kidding

loweyecue wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

crzymdups wrote:novak is a situational player.

If you took off your raging homer glasses, I'd posit that the best arguments against more Novak are that

1) Three point shooters tend to be streaky. And many are "rhythm" shooters. Meaning they need to get their stroke going at the cost of misses.

2) Compared to Melo, on defense, Novak would get fewer calls, this all aside from being less athletic. Refs are simply not going to foul out Melo playing defense unless Melo does something specifically and openly egregious.

3) It's unclear how Novak would react to greater usage. He would take more of a beating from defenders, that's for sure, which might impact his shooting.

The best argument for Novak are

1) He has consistently shown he can bust a zone defense, maybe the only Knick who has.

2) Novak is not a rhythm shooter. He's just a pure gunner, warm, hot or cold, you'll know whether you are getting efficiency or not from him right off the bat that night

3) As a legitimate stretch 4, he spaces the floor and opens up the interior for whomever is playing center for the Knicks.

4) If Melo is not exploiting getting the the free throw line or using the low post, then Novak is the only true volume scorer the Knicks have in terms of actual production. That Melo "can" pour it in doesn't negate the fact that Novak is the only one who "is" pouring it in.

5) Despite just hanging out behind the line, Novak does show good shot selection. There are plenty of times he passes the ball out even if a shot is possible.

I would say for Novak, he gives you the best efficiency relative to actual usage/minutes compared to Melo right now.

I think Novak works best , IMHO, with a combo with Lin. I think TOGETHER, they are truly more efficient than Melo. Lin's penetration opens up shooting for Novak. Novaks floor spacing opens up driving lanes for Lin. Right now Lin is the only penetrator that causes complete and total havoc for a defense.

my "raging homer glasses". from the guy who defends lin over melo in any circumstance.

if you actually read what i was saying you'd realize that i like all the knicks and i never trash any of them needlessly. i think melo is important to this team, just as i think lin is, just as i think tyson is, just as i think amar'e is. those are our four best players. like it or not. we go as far as they take us.

shumpert, novak, jeffries, landry are all extremely important, too, but they fill in the edges around the games of our four complete players.

it's much easier to find a guy like novak - when you have your foundation built and the need for situational players becomes clear - where they fit, what they need to do. situational players like novak usually do better on teams where they have defined, but limited roles. aka they aren't asked to do that much.

anyone who is trying to state with a straight face that novak is a better player than melo, more important to this team, or wouldn't perform far less efficiently if he was asked to carry the weight melo carries probably needs to take a long look in the mirror and brush their teeth or something.

melo is a very good basketball player. he's paid to carry the load and he is doing that, whether his numbers are his career best or not. to say that a guy like novak could handle the pressure of being the focal point of opposing defenses is so wrong that i actually laugh every time i read this thread.

carry on, you jokesters.

No one has suggested anywhere that Novak should replace Melo. You get all emotionally worked up about this. The idea of this thread is that Novak is producing at a phenomenal rate against what could be expected of a situational role player. Melo is putting up numbers worthy of a situational role player and is nowhere close to performing the way he needs to. Now you can argue that till you are blue in the face, I am stating my opinion and it won't change, till I see real production from Melo.

We just got blown out by the raptors and yes I had more faith in Novak being able to bring us back in the 4 th than I had in Melo in that particular game BASED ON how they were playing. And no I don't particularly enjoy feeling that way.

i think you have to be clear that novak and melo perform vastly different functions on this team and fill vastly different roles and there is no way novak could ever do what melo is doing.

novak is having an exceptional season as a situational player. he's one of the best situational players in the league - he hits three pointers at a great percentage and he hits a lot of them. the end.

melo is having a below average season as a focal point of the offense. yet, his very pressence and ability to get his own shot off and draw double and triple teams allows guys like novak to succeed, it gives them more open opportunities. melo, despite playing below his averages, is defended like a guy who is playing at his career averages or better. i wonder why that is? are all nba players and coaches just idiots?

the point is melo and novak do vastly different jobs on this team. novak is doing his limited job very well. i have no bones about him. melo is doing pretty well at his job, too, other than field goal percentage. he's averaging close to a career high in assists, right around his career rebounding numbers, still scoring 20ppg on a team with multiple scoring options.

people say melo isn't sacrificing enough of his game for the team and then when he does they say he's underperforming.

i don't have an emotional attachment to the issue, but i am sick of reading the same two ping-ponging arguments against melo by guys who clearly just have a bone to pick with melo no matter he does. i don't have a bone to pick with him. i didn't love the trade, but i got why they had to do it. i didn't love the way melo quit on MDA, but i also thought MDA was a flawed coach who would never win in the playoffs and didn't fit this very talented roster, so i understood that, too.

in the end, i want the knicks to be good. and i think melo is a big part of that. he's currently in the midst of sacrificing his game for the good of the team and the team is on a 6-1 stretch. it'd be nice if he found his groove on offense, but he's bringing a lot of good things to the team right now.

To be fair Novak has succeeded with or without Melo on the floor. Lin -Novak combo seems to work very well. Other than that I agree with most of your post.

I was looking at the numbers from a Forwards on the team POV, not as interchangeable players. I see that you recognize Novak's phenomenal performance as well. I do wish Melo too will go above and beyond what is expected of him. That's the only way we can succeed.

Yeah, the Melo supporters keep giving us this BS about Melo's mere presence making everyone better but our players looked great without Melo. And I can't think of one player whose game deteriorated after leaving Melo. Melo is basically playing like a role player this year - maybe a top 15 SF in the league.

crzymdups wrote:people say melo isn't sacrificing enough of his game for the team and then when he does they say he's underperforming.

i don't have an emotional attachment to the issue, but i am sick of reading the same two ping-ponging arguments against melo by guys who clearly just have a bone to pick with melo no matter he does. i don't have a bone to pick with him. i didn't love the trade, but i got why they had to do it. i didn't love the way melo quit on MDA, but i also thought MDA was a flawed coach who would never win in the playoffs and didn't fit this very talented roster, so i understood that, too.

in the end, i want the knicks to be good. and i think melo is a big part of that. he's currently in the midst of sacrificing his game for the good of the team and the team is on a 6-1 stretch. it'd be nice if he found his groove on offense, but he's bringing a lot of good things to the team right now.

I completely agree with you on this. He is sacrificing. He is doing what he is asked to (minus the percentage). Thats the reason I say let him be the 3rd option to get him going and promote him to second and then first when he can hit an jumper again!

SteveSmith wrote:

jrodmc wrote:
And with Melo as option #5 or #3 these "Melo's not performing up to his money" threads could continue unabated. What's he supposed to do for the second max contract, outrebound Stat and Tyson and lead the league in blocks?

You people have no f-ing idea how to defend a starphuch.

How about being a vital part in getting the Knicks to 1 or 3 Championships and settling for 12-15 mio a year to benefit the team? Muhahahaha!

But he's got children to feed!

nixluva wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:Melo is definitely not earning his salary and is really shooting badly. Maybe he is injured, cocaine, roids, HIV POSITIVE, who knows. What I do like is that at the same time, he is really stepping it up on D and not letting his shooting affect his defense. That is all we can ask for.

We can all hate on him but that won't make his shots fall. All we ask for is effort and we are definitely getting effort.

I can't really agree with this. All we can ask for is effort? Perhaps from a bench guy or something, but not from the guy who's supposed to be our Kevin Durant!!! Melo was brought in to be our Superstar. He was brought in to give us that elite level player that can carry us for periods of time so we don't lose games like teams that don't have that kind of player. There are no rationalizations for a star player. Guys like Melo don't get that luxury.

And as for effort that should be a given for every pro player. It's a sad day when we hand out brownie points for a Pro Athlete giving effort!!! If he would've been doing that on both ends his entire career no one would really have anything negative to say about him. He really just now has started to give this kind of effort and it was only because he had no choice but to give his all now. No Melo has to step up bigtime or take the brunt of the media and fan scorn for not showing up when the team needs him. I can tell you that it will get real ugly for him if he doesn't start playing like he's supposed to. Especially if the team makes the playoffs and he doesn't step up and help them win.

Melo ain't Kevin Durant and I don't really give a damn about Melo.

We are winning now - do you give a sh1t or are you still soooo saddddddddd that this prick Melo got your boy toy run out of town? Are you gonna keep bitching in every single thread about him because you now hate him even more? Getting really old and boring.

What you should be is HAPPY that we got rid of the idiot who did not care enough about us fans and did not get his players to play defense. Woodson is such a breath of fresh air, I now replace my MDA poster with Woody's!! hahahah - I am so happy! I Love DEFENSE!!

DEFENSE!!DEFENSE!!DEFENSE!!DEFENSE!!DEFENSE!!

It's really hard for BITCHING to get good traction while we are winning

You can continue to live in this delusional state of mind where it doesn't matter what Melo does, but back here in the real world, it does matter what Melo does! No one mentioned anything about MDA, but you. Are you unable to argue a point without making idiotic and wild assumptions? I clearly stated what my point of view was and it had nothing to do with MDA or Woodson. This is about Melo and his inability to play up to his potential and place as the teams best player. Perhaps you don't think it's gonna matter should this team make the playoffs, but it will. You can't think that this team is gonna have a legit chance to advance with Melo not Playing well. The best teams eventually need their best players to rise in the playoffs.

It's great that the team is playing harder on D, but when you go up against a team that is your equal or better it's not gonna be enough to just be good on one side of the ball. Have you not been paying attention to NBA BB for all these years that this has escaped your notice? You can't really be that naive to think that all we're gonna need is to play good D and everything will just fall in place? The Bulls play great D and they didn't make the finals last year. You need to grow up and make valid arguments as opposed to your usual lame jokes.

Nixluva, "wild assumptions"? Do you not think everyone here on this board knows your angles and where you stand? ARE YOU THAT NAIVE??

If you want to complain about a player off his game, though still trying while we are winning that is sad and fine.

What I think you need to be concentrating on right now is Stats uninsured contract. How is that working out? Happy with his defensive effort since he came here? Was he dogging it for the coach? Oh! I forgot! Its not his fault because "HE HAS LOW DEFENSIVE IQ"

Be balanced and you will be more credible.

You sprinkle in Stat every so often as to not look biased but it's quite transparent.

HATING MELO = PRO MDA

Melo stunk before the coaching change and guess what ... He is still stinking it up. Difference? WINNING!

DEFENSE!! Enjoy it. There will be time to attack and complain - have no fear.