nixluva wrote:GEEZ!!! The Win Share stats aren't even close. It's no contest. I actually didn't expect it to be that bad. Of Course this year is really bad for Melo, but still...

Kobe    OWS 	DWS 	WS 	WS/48
        114.4 	46.9 	161.3 	.186
Melo    OWS 	DWS 	WS 	WS/48
     	37.9 	21.4 	59.2 	.126

.126 for the WS/48 is above average though. (The league average is .100.) So it's not like the numbers are saying Melo is a bad player - just that he's nothing special.

People tend to give way too much focus on point per game when evaluating players - and then flashiness helps some players too. The way I look at it is that a team is going to get about 85 shots a game. You need as many of them to be high percentage shots as possible if you want to have a good offensive team. That means taking high percentage shots and creating high percentage shots for teammates. Every time a player shoots a contested fade-away with 16 left on the shot clock, it's just a waste of one of those 85 shots.

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:GEEZ!!! The Win Share stats aren't even close. It's no contest. I actually didn't expect it to be that bad. Of Course this year is really bad for Melo, but still...

Kobe    OWS 	DWS 	WS 	WS/48
        114.4 	46.9 	161.3 	.186
Melo    OWS 	DWS 	WS 	WS/48
     	37.9 	21.4 	59.2 	.126

.126 for the WS/48 is above average though. (The league average is .100.) So it's not like the numbers are saying Melo is a bad player - just that he's nothing special.

People tend to give way too much focus on point per game when evaluating players - and then flashiness helps some players too. The way I look at it is that a team is going to get about 85 shots a game. You need as many of them to be high percentage shots as possible if you want to have a good offensive team. That means taking high percentage shots and creating high percentage shots for teammates. Every time a player shoots a contested fade-away with 16 left on the shot clock, it's just a waste of one of those 85 shots.

I have to admit that I was wrong and you were right. I did not fully agree with you on Melo and I thought he could become a more efficient players here. I was misled by his performance last year when he got here and actually did seem to play better. I overlooked his faults. In particular the intangible stuff that doesn't show up in stats as easily. His effort level overall. When you see other players that routinely dive on the floor or run back and get into the play on fastbreaks for the other team, or make the effort to blockout for an entire game, those kinds of things lead to wins. I'm afraid Melo just doesn't want to do those things. STAT is in that same boat. They will make token effort for a period of time but not for 48 mins.

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:GEEZ!!! The Win Share stats aren't even close. It's no contest. I actually didn't expect it to be that bad. Of Course this year is really bad for Melo, but still...

Kobe    OWS 	DWS 	WS 	WS/48
        114.4 	46.9 	161.3 	.186
Melo    OWS 	DWS 	WS 	WS/48
     	37.9 	21.4 	59.2 	.126

.126 for the WS/48 is above average though. (The league average is .100.) So it's not like the numbers are saying Melo is a bad player - just that he's nothing special.

People tend to give way too much focus on point per game when evaluating players - and then flashiness helps some players too. The way I look at it is that a team is going to get about 85 shots a game. You need as many of them to be high percentage shots as possible if you want to have a good offensive team. That means taking high percentage shots and creating high percentage shots for teammates. Every time a player shoots a contested fade-away with 16 left on the shot clock, it's just a waste of one of those 85 shots.

I have to admit that I was wrong and you were right. I did not fully agree with you on Melo and I thought he could become a more efficient players here. I was misled by his performance last year when he got here and actually did seem to play better. I overlooked his faults. In particular the intangible stuff that doesn't show up in stats as easily. His effort level overall. When you see other players that routinely dive on the floor or run back and get into the play on fastbreaks for the other team, or make the effort to blockout for an entire game, those kinds of things lead to wins. I'm afraid Melo just doesn't want to do those things. STAT is in that same boat. They will make token effort for a period of time but not for 48 mins.

You two should get a room. MDA might be jealous - hahaha

I do think there are some players whose contributions are not fully captured by the stats. Jared Jeffries is probably the best example. But I don't Melo is one of those players.

Bonn1997 wrote:Oh and if you were surprised by Melo's win share stat, go look up Monta Ellis. He makes Carmelo look like the smartest decision-maker in the history of the game.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/ellismo01.html

I do think there are some players whose contributions are not fully captured by the stats. Jared Jeffries is probably the best example. But I don't Melo is one of those players.

Anji wrote:Win shares is another tool for cut and dry sports like Baseball where you can single out every play against a definite value........27 outs.

If you look at Amares W/S it is about where .10 points lower. What does that tell me if I never seen this two players play???? Not a damn thing. Basketball is not baseball, to you can't firgue the value of a walk versus the value of getting a triple team.

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:GEEZ!!! The Win Share stats aren't even close. It's no contest. I actually didn't expect it to be that bad. Of Course this year is really bad for Melo, but still...

Kobe    OWS 	DWS 	WS 	WS/48
        114.4 	46.9 	161.3 	.186
Melo    OWS 	DWS 	WS 	WS/48
     	37.9 	21.4 	59.2 	.126

.126 for the WS/48 is above average though. (The league average is .100.) So it's not like the numbers are saying Melo is a bad player - just that he's nothing special.

People tend to give way too much focus on point per game when evaluating players - and then flashiness helps some players too. The way I look at it is that a team is going to get about 85 shots a game. You need as many of them to be high percentage shots as possible if you want to have a good offensive team. That means taking high percentage shots and creating high percentage shots for teammates. Every time a player shoots a contested fade-away with 16 left on the shot clock, it's just a waste of one of those 85 shots.

Bonn, thanks thats an interesting sight. Still dont understand Win Shares but I will read more about them.

The numbers I do understand all still looks almost exact with Melo being a more efficient rebounder and Kobe being a more efficient passer.
TS%

Kobe = 55%
Melo = 54%

eFG%

Kobe = 48%
Melo = 47%

I am glad you got Nixluva excited about Win Shares though he has no idea what it means

Do you understand Win Shares? Offensive / Defensive? If yes, can you give a really brief explanation?

Bonn1997 wrote:

Anji wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Oh and if you were surprised by Melo's win share stat, go look up Monta Ellis. He makes Carmelo look like the smartest decision-maker in the history of the game.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/ellismo01.html

I do think there are some players whose contributions are not fully captured by the stats. Jared Jeffries is probably the best example. But I don't Melo is one of those players.

Monta Ellis plays for a team that has been to the playoffs once in the last 20-25 years........ his WIN SHARE IS LOW!!!!!!!!!!!! WHO KNEW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You do not understand the win share statistic. The team's total wins are not put into the equation to calculate a player's individual win share stat. Likewise, specific players' win share stats tend to be pretty stable even when they switch from bad to good teams. Go look at Kevin Love's win share stats from when the T-Wolves were terrible.

So kobe's win shares are not inflated from playing with Shaq? Just curious. Trying to find a good definition and see how applicable it is. I love these actuarial stats - reminds me of the movie money ball.

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:GEEZ!!! The Win Share stats aren't even close. It's no contest. I actually didn't expect it to be that bad. Of Course this year is really bad for Melo, but still...

Kobe    OWS 	DWS 	WS 	WS/48
        114.4 	46.9 	161.3 	.186
Melo    OWS 	DWS 	WS 	WS/48
     	37.9 	21.4 	59.2 	.126

.126 for the WS/48 is above average though. (The league average is .100.) So it's not like the numbers are saying Melo is a bad player - just that he's nothing special.

People tend to give way too much focus on point per game when evaluating players - and then flashiness helps some players too. The way I look at it is that a team is going to get about 85 shots a game. You need as many of them to be high percentage shots as possible if you want to have a good offensive team. That means taking high percentage shots and creating high percentage shots for teammates. Every time a player shoots a contested fade-away with 16 left on the shot clock, it's just a waste of one of those 85 shots.

Bonn, thanks thats an interesting sight. Still dont understand Win Shares but I will read more about them.

The numbers I do understand all still looks almost exact with Melo being a more efficient rebounder and Kobe being a more efficient passer.
TS%

Kobe = 55%
Melo = 54%

eFG%

Kobe = 48%
Melo = 47%

I am glad you got Nixluva excited about Win Shares though he has no idea what it means

Do you understand Win Shares? Offensive / Defensive? If yes, can you give a really brief explanation?