DurzoBlint wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I wish he'd retire after this year... he was the best commissioner in sports but that clearly has been far from the case the past few years

he has been awful for years now. My biggest argument, too many teams and watered down talent.

Stern presided over the addition of teams that has further watered down the talent level.

define years

SupremeCommander wrote:

Voltron wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I wish he'd retire after this year... he was the best commissioner in sports but that clearly has been far from the case the past few years

I'm not so sure about that. He was lucky enough to be there when Magic and Bird came into the league, even more lucky that Michael Jordan came in later on, and made the NBA so God**** star-driven and dependent on its few biggest stars, when MJ retired the NBA never came close to those types of numbers and ratings since. I think last year's LeBron numbers came close, but there is such a huge gap from the 90's to the 10's. His problem is he builds the entire NBA around a tiny handful of guys and most fans realize there are only a few teams that actually have a shot at winning it all.

In contrast to the NFL which seems to feature a new team almost every year, constantly churns and creates new stars, and has had popularity grow consistently every year for the past decade and every playoffs and primetime games, their own records for ratings and viewership get destroyed. One of the reasons is because NFL fans know every year their team has a legitimate shot at the spotlight.

Luckily for Stern, Jeremy Lin showed up, and if the Knicks can make themselves a top team, then he can be that crossover star, but that still doesn't fix the problems of the NBA.

Al ot of the stuff you're talking about is hard to pin on Stern. There was an obvious drop off in talent after MJ and his foes retired. But, okay, let's pin it on Stern.

In spite of all that, the NBA brand went international in a big way. Part of the reason Linsanity, for example, took off, was because of Stern's international commitment. In that regard, he's exceeded the NFL.

I am not a Stern fan, especially his condescending manner. If I wer ea player I'd want to punch him. I fi were a new owner, I'd want to punch him. When it was Stern and the last group of owners, the NBA made great strides. But that era has long since passed

How can you say that NBA's international expansion created Linsanity? Did you recently get fired by ESPN or something? Jeremey Lin is a US citizen, born and raised in Cali, he has nothing to do with China, and his popularity and fame in China has nothing to do with his popularity in the US.

As for the "obvious" talent drop, the only thing that made it "obvious" was the fact that the NBA no longer knew how to market itself as "talented" because the guys they marketed as "talented" were gone, and he had no backup plan. If you get down to it the talent was arguably better in the 2000's because of the influx of international players, but there were only two guys people considered genuine crossover superstars. One guy was young and stuck in a small market, the other guy was a jerk and a possible rapist. Stern never learned how to adjust his NBA away from being built around "stars" instead of teams, and that's why he gets such a F grade.

Hopefully the new guy will change the philosophy of the NBA and make things a little more even so more teams get a legitimate shot at glory and not just the handpicked few that alienates so many.

Voltron wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

Voltron wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I wish he'd retire after this year... he was the best commissioner in sports but that clearly has been far from the case the past few years

I'm not so sure about that. He was lucky enough to be there when Magic and Bird came into the league, even more lucky that Michael Jordan came in later on, and made the NBA so God**** star-driven and dependent on its few biggest stars, when MJ retired the NBA never came close to those types of numbers and ratings since. I think last year's LeBron numbers came close, but there is such a huge gap from the 90's to the 10's. His problem is he builds the entire NBA around a tiny handful of guys and most fans realize there are only a few teams that actually have a shot at winning it all.

In contrast to the NFL which seems to feature a new team almost every year, constantly churns and creates new stars, and has had popularity grow consistently every year for the past decade and every playoffs and primetime games, their own records for ratings and viewership get destroyed. One of the reasons is because NFL fans know every year their team has a legitimate shot at the spotlight.

Luckily for Stern, Jeremy Lin showed up, and if the Knicks can make themselves a top team, then he can be that crossover star, but that still doesn't fix the problems of the NBA.

Al ot of the stuff you're talking about is hard to pin on Stern. There was an obvious drop off in talent after MJ and his foes retired. But, okay, let's pin it on Stern.

In spite of all that, the NBA brand went international in a big way. Part of the reason Linsanity, for example, took off, was because of Stern's international commitment. In that regard, he's exceeded the NFL.

I am not a Stern fan, especially his condescending manner. If I wer ea player I'd want to punch him. I fi were a new owner, I'd want to punch him. When it was Stern and the last group of owners, the NBA made great strides. But that era has long since passed

How can you say that NBA's international expansion created Linsanity? Did you recently get fired by ESPN or something? Jeremey Lin is a US citizen, born and raised in Cali, he has nothing to do with China, and his popularity and fame in China has nothing to do with his popularity in the US.

As for the "obvious" talent drop, the only thing that made it "obvious" was the fact that the NBA no longer knew how to market itself as "talented" because the guys they marketed as "talented" were gone, and he had no backup plan. If you get down to it the talent was arguably better in the 2000's because of the influx of international players, but there were only two guys people considered genuine crossover superstars. One guy was young and stuck in a small market, the other guy was a jerk and a possible rapist. Stern never learned how to adjust his NBA away from being built around "stars" instead of teams, and that's why he gets such a F grade.

Hopefully the new guy will change the philosophy of the NBA and make things a little more even so more teams get a legitimate shot at glory and not just the handpicked few that alienates so many.

look up "part of the reason." I'm sorry, without an international platform, the story doesn't take off the way it has. Maybe domestically, but it doesn't go international without that.

As for your second paragraph, holy Moses is that schizo. I'm sure the commissioner's policies are directly responsible the dropp off in talent

You try sitting across the table from Keynon Dooling, Roger Mason Jr. and Etan Thomas and explaining the collective barganing aggreement. Half these guys can't understand how to run an offense. It's not an easy job.

Read David Falks book "The Bald Truth" there are some great stories to let you know who you are dealing with out there. Falk explaining to Magic Johnson that if he signed with him that we would take more than his current agent, but he was going to get him a bigger contract..."you ain't getting more of my money" negotiating with Karl Malone who was so dumb that Falk got Ostratag more money them him.

It's a lose lose situation out there when a player like Deandre Jordan can get 10MM, Affalo 9MM, etc. What do you expect these guys to do. They opened up the sport globally, cleaned up the image of the league and have a good product. You can't blame them because getting paid 15-20MM isn't enough for guys they want to be fashion icons, produce music, etc...

SupremeCommander wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I wish he'd retire after this year... he was the best commissioner in sports but that clearly has been far from the case the past few years

he has been awful for years now. My biggest argument, too many teams and watered down talent.

Stern presided over the addition of teams that has further watered down the talent level.

define years

well 1year is 365days so multiple years would be anywhere above 730days

DurzoBlint wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I wish he'd retire after this year... he was the best commissioner in sports but that clearly has been far from the case the past few years

he has been awful for years now. My biggest argument, too many teams and watered down talent.

Stern presided over the addition of teams that has further watered down the talent level.

define years

well 1year is 365days so multiple years would be anywhere above 730days

so your saying he has been awful for 730+ days now. Well that helps!

and I completely agree. he has been horrible for 731 days.

next!

DurzoBlint wrote:

Nalod wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I wish he'd retire after this year... he was the best commissioner in sports but that clearly has been far from the case the past few years

he has been awful for years now. My biggest argument, too many teams and watered down talent.

Stern presided over the addition of teams that has further watered down the talent level.

Owners: We want to expand.

Stern: Not a great idea guys.

Owners. We pay you 10mil year.

Stern: Yeah, your teams worth $450mil at the very least.

Owners: We can get $900million for two teams. Thats $32mil a piece. Way more than some of us paid for our teams!

Sterns: It will water down talent!

Owners: You see how many overseas players are now in the league. Besides, we are not asking you!

Stern: OK.

Point.....Stern is the commish, not the king of basketball. Owners make decisions also.

he presided over it so, he still gets the blame, that's how it works. Do you think years from now that people will remember who these owners were....NO. The will likely remember who Stern was and the changes he presided over. The figurehead always takes the blame.

Blame for what?

YOu think the talent is watered down, but the ratings are up.

Rubio is a hit in Minny and Linsanity was a shot in the arm.

We are not going to get "linsanity" every year but its been a long time since we had a nice story to boost ratings.

Stern presided over more good than bad.

If someone else was commish in that time, you think it would be that much different? Stern has been in place like 30 years. Im not saying he gets the credit for all that happend as I think it would evolve over time but the facts are the facts. You have stars come and go all the time and the game has grown despite expansion.

IN fact, one might say Hockey really over did it with teams in smaller markets. Teams in Nashville and Columbus OH really necessary? Raliegh does well but ATL was a bad idea. Maybe credit NBA for not expanding any more than they did!

What is the "right" amount of teams?

Perhaps if there were more open roster spots guys like Lin might not fall thru the cracks? Maybe the talent is there?

Nalod wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

Nalod wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I wish he'd retire after this year... he was the best commissioner in sports but that clearly has been far from the case the past few years

he has been awful for years now. My biggest argument, too many teams and watered down talent.

Stern presided over the addition of teams that has further watered down the talent level.

Owners: We want to expand.

Stern: Not a great idea guys.

Owners. We pay you 10mil year.

Stern: Yeah, your teams worth $450mil at the very least.

Owners: We can get $900million for two teams. Thats $32mil a piece. Way more than some of us paid for our teams!

Sterns: It will water down talent!

Owners: You see how many overseas players are now in the league. Besides, we are not asking you!

Stern: OK.

Point.....Stern is the commish, not the king of basketball. Owners make decisions also.

he presided over it so, he still gets the blame, that's how it works. Do you think years from now that people will remember who these owners were....NO. The will likely remember who Stern was and the changes he presided over. The figurehead always takes the blame.

Blame for what?

YOu think the talent is watered down, but the ratings are up.

Rubio is a hit in Minny and Linsanity was a shot in the arm.

We are not going to get "linsanity" every year but its been a long time since we had a nice story to boost ratings.

Stern presided over more good than bad.

If someone else was commish in that time, you think it would be that much different? Stern has been in place like 30 years. Im not saying he gets the credit for all that happend as I think it would evolve over time but the facts are the facts. You have stars come and go all the time and the game has grown despite expansion.

IN fact, one might say Hockey really over did it with teams in smaller markets. Teams in Nashville and Columbus OH really necessary? Raliegh does well but ATL was a bad idea. Maybe credit NBA for not expanding any more than they did!

What is the "right" amount of teams?

Perhaps if there were more open roster spots guys like Lin might not fall thru the cracks? Maybe the talent is there?

what does ratings have to do with it. Ratings went up with the rise of Jeremy, does that help prove your point...NO. One has nothing to do with the other.

How old are you because I remember guards being able to hit free throws, point guards could pass and shooting guards could shoot. There are not too many teams and expansion has ALWAYS been Stern's baby. Expansion here and abroad which, is nothing new.

SupremeCommander wrote:

Voltron wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

Voltron wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I wish he'd retire after this year... he was the best commissioner in sports but that clearly has been far from the case the past few years

I'm not so sure about that. He was lucky enough to be there when Magic and Bird came into the league, even more lucky that Michael Jordan came in later on, and made the NBA so God**** star-driven and dependent on its few biggest stars, when MJ retired the NBA never came close to those types of numbers and ratings since. I think last year's LeBron numbers came close, but there is such a huge gap from the 90's to the 10's. His problem is he builds the entire NBA around a tiny handful of guys and most fans realize there are only a few teams that actually have a shot at winning it all.

In contrast to the NFL which seems to feature a new team almost every year, constantly churns and creates new stars, and has had popularity grow consistently every year for the past decade and every playoffs and primetime games, their own records for ratings and viewership get destroyed. One of the reasons is because NFL fans know every year their team has a legitimate shot at the spotlight.

Luckily for Stern, Jeremy Lin showed up, and if the Knicks can make themselves a top team, then he can be that crossover star, but that still doesn't fix the problems of the NBA.

Al ot of the stuff you're talking about is hard to pin on Stern. There was an obvious drop off in talent after MJ and his foes retired. But, okay, let's pin it on Stern.

In spite of all that, the NBA brand went international in a big way. Part of the reason Linsanity, for example, took off, was because of Stern's international commitment. In that regard, he's exceeded the NFL.

I am not a Stern fan, especially his condescending manner. If I wer ea player I'd want to punch him. I fi were a new owner, I'd want to punch him. When it was Stern and the last group of owners, the NBA made great strides. But that era has long since passed

How can you say that NBA's international expansion created Linsanity? Did you recently get fired by ESPN or something? Jeremey Lin is a US citizen, born and raised in Cali, he has nothing to do with China, and his popularity and fame in China has nothing to do with his popularity in the US.

As for the "obvious" talent drop, the only thing that made it "obvious" was the fact that the NBA no longer knew how to market itself as "talented" because the guys they marketed as "talented" were gone, and he had no backup plan. If you get down to it the talent was arguably better in the 2000's because of the influx of international players, but there were only two guys people considered genuine crossover superstars. One guy was young and stuck in a small market, the other guy was a jerk and a possible rapist. Stern never learned how to adjust his NBA away from being built around "stars" instead of teams, and that's why he gets such a F grade.

Hopefully the new guy will change the philosophy of the NBA and make things a little more even so more teams get a legitimate shot at glory and not just the handpicked few that alienates so many.

look up "part of the reason." I'm sorry, without an international platform, the story doesn't take off the way it has. Maybe domestically, but it doesn't go international without that.

As for your second paragraph, holy Moses is that schizo. I'm sure the commissioner's policies are directly responsible the dropp off in talent

you misunderstood my "". What I was saying was the talent level probably went up after the 90's but the number of star attractions went down because Stern's NBA was more dependent on stars then teams, and he also failed to create new stars.

DurzoBlint wrote:

Nalod wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

Nalod wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I wish he'd retire after this year... he was the best commissioner in sports but that clearly has been far from the case the past few years

he has been awful for years now. My biggest argument, too many teams and watered down talent.

Stern presided over the addition of teams that has further watered down the talent level.

Owners: We want to expand.

Stern: Not a great idea guys.

Owners. We pay you 10mil year.

Stern: Yeah, your teams worth $450mil at the very least.

Owners: We can get $900million for two teams. Thats $32mil a piece. Way more than some of us paid for our teams!

Sterns: It will water down talent!

Owners: You see how many overseas players are now in the league. Besides, we are not asking you!

Stern: OK.

Point.....Stern is the commish, not the king of basketball. Owners make decisions also.

he presided over it so, he still gets the blame, that's how it works. Do you think years from now that people will remember who these owners were....NO. The will likely remember who Stern was and the changes he presided over. The figurehead always takes the blame.

Blame for what?

YOu think the talent is watered down, but the ratings are up.

Rubio is a hit in Minny and Linsanity was a shot in the arm.

We are not going to get "linsanity" every year but its been a long time since we had a nice story to boost ratings.

Stern presided over more good than bad.

If someone else was commish in that time, you think it would be that much different? Stern has been in place like 30 years. Im not saying he gets the credit for all that happend as I think it would evolve over time but the facts are the facts. You have stars come and go all the time and the game has grown despite expansion.

IN fact, one might say Hockey really over did it with teams in smaller markets. Teams in Nashville and Columbus OH really necessary? Raliegh does well but ATL was a bad idea. Maybe credit NBA for not expanding any more than they did!

What is the "right" amount of teams?

Perhaps if there were more open roster spots guys like Lin might not fall thru the cracks? Maybe the talent is there?

what does ratings have to do with it. Ratings went up with the rise of Jeremy, does that help prove your point...NO. One has nothing to do with the other.

How old are you because I remember guards being able to hit free throws, point guards could pass and shooting guards could shoot. There are not too many teams and expansion has ALWAYS been Stern's baby. Expansion here and abroad which, is nothing new.

Ratings=$

Owners wanted expansion and thats why it was Sterns baby.

Linsanity was fueled in part by international exposure. There are a whole lot of people watching the games in Asia. Lin is American born but he is of great interest because of his heritage.

Yao Ming before Lin, and they love Tony Parker in France, Luol Deng in Africa, Ginobli is a big star in Argentina, Nash in Canada, Gallo in Italy, Dirk in Germany, AK, Mozzy from Russia, etc etc. Guys like Divac, Mutumbo, Petrovich, and others from 20 years ago helped fuel expansion.

Globalization has opened up great interest the last 30 years and players from other parts of the world have made their mark and can play.

There were crappy teams before expansion.

Your saying "Back when I was young, men were men, and as such they hit their FT's, little men were pt guards and the big guys were in the low post, and dammit we were happy".

Then Magic Johnson came along at 6'9 and blew it all the hell.

Is Expansion the reason why teams took kids out of highschool when they lacked fundamentals? Or money?

I might say that if not for the international popularity of the game and the infusuion of foriegn players the game would suffer greatly in terms of skill level. ESPN high lights and AAU empowering 14 year olds as rock stars because they can jump and dunk has done more harm than "expansion".

IM not beating a dead horse, we discussing the evolution of the league. YOu can hate on Stern all you want but all great business models have weak outlets and problems.

Sacramento used to be a top tier attendance city until they declined. They are getting the new arena and have some nice pieces going forward. One has to admire the work Stern and the league did to keep the Kings from moving to Anaheim. The Maloofs got hit hard in the recession. Stern is loyal to his owners and Anaheim was good short term fix. Instead, Stern balanced what the owner needs vs. a City that really wants to keep its team but the economics of a new arena is not easy. Stern and the league failed in Seattle. Maybe they learned and amended to not repeat.

Seattle was a great NBA city until weak ownership came to be and the team went into rebuild mode. Its a shame they moved but the city who built a new baseball stadium and football did not handle the Arena issue well. That team is now the Thunder and they kill it in OK!

New Orleans owned by George Shinn made some really bad moves. The decline in Charlotte had to do with Shinn trading out his best players, his nasty public sexual harassment suits,Death of Bobby PHils who was racing his car, the murder by Ray Carruth all leading the disinchantment of fans towards pro atheletes in Charlotte. Fans were fed up with all this and a the same time were whining his 10 year old arena was out of date (it was by modern standards) Charlotte was never a powerhouse team by any measure led the league in attndance!!!!!

Had George Shinn not been an idiot and sold 51% to JOrdan instead of only offering 49% they likley would not have moved and got the arena done. Shinn was free to take his incentive money to NOLA. Look at him now!

Robert Johnson, the first Black owner of a pro franchise was underfunded or unwilling to spend to get the franchise right. He could have had Dwight instead of Okafor if he was not fearful either.

The Nets got a new owner and will be going to brooklyn. Its gonna be big.

So basically we got one franchise in trouble out of 30 (NOLA)and the league owns it and will stablize it.