misterearl wrote:

MarburyAnd1Crossover wrote:21 points on 39% fg is worse than Lin's 5 or 6 turnovers.

Can you prove that mathematically?

The six average turnovers could lead to 12 points. In the NBA, that is a lot to spot any team.

And I love Jeremy Lin.

He gets you 2 back with steals, and the turnovers are a result of his Style of Play, which contributes more to the good of the team than anything he gives away.

The Melo misses suck life out of the other players because, let's be honest, a lot of those shots have been from flow-killing ISOs.

airchibundo507 wrote:as Melo's efficiency rises, Lin's turnovers will lessen.

I agree with this. It's likely that Lin's turnovers and Carmelo's efficency (and the offense's efficency in general) have an inverse relationship with one another.

airchibundo507 wrote:

MarburyAnd1Crossover wrote:

misterearl wrote:

MarburyAnd1Crossover wrote:21 points on 39% fg is worse than Lin's 5 or 6 turnovers.

Can you prove that mathematically?

The six average turnovers could lead to 12 points. In the NBA, that is a lot to spot any team.

And I love Jeremy Lin.

He gets you 2 back with steals, and the turnovers are a result of his Style of Play, which contributes more to the good of the team than anything he gives away.

The Melo misses suck life out of the other players because, let's be honest, a lot of those shots have been from flow-killing ISOs.

do you have any concrete evidence supporting your view of Melo as a vampire?

Catch a pick-up game when you get a chance and see how much fun you have playing on a team where one guy constantly "ISOs". Note the effect this has on your approach to the game.

Now to Melo's efficiency, clearly more important as he will hopefully be taking more shots than Jeremy and as his efficiency goes up, so does his shot selection (which is a problem, even though when he is on he can make everything.) Further, the more efficient he gets the more that will open things up for others as he is going to get more doubles. I can say the same for Lin, since the ball is in his hands a lot. I look forward to Melo picking it up, but playing MUCH MUCH more efficient. He will come around and I'll try to be more open and patient with him.

We got ourselves a GREAT TEAM on our hands, just a bit more time.

airchibundo507 wrote:

y2zipper wrote:

airchibundo507 wrote:

eViL wrote:

misterearl wrote:Translation: Using Miami as a model, the defensive pressure on Lin will be turned up five degrees.

i love when people say that teams are going to use the "Miami Model." is that so? how exactly will other teams do this? are there super athletes that are committed to defense like Lebron and Wade on every team?

The super athletes that punked Lin were Mario Chalmers and Norris Cole, who simply managed to poke the ball out from under Lin's nose as he was crossing the halfcourt line.

Yes, there are ballhawking defenders on other teams.

Boston - Rondo, Avery Johnson
OKC - Westbrook

He might even struggle against Chicago.

I'm beaten to this already, but LeBron James and Dwayne Wade are the best combination of wing defenders in the league and cut off the passing lanes. That's why Lin couldn't find open guys and why Cole and Chalmers were so effective. No other team can duplicate that type of attack.

Melo needs to be more efficient. Lin's turnovers actually aren't a big deal given his usage rate, but Carmelo and Amar'e both need to be more efficient. Melo will play in the flow of the offense and can ISO when Lin struggles.

Lin had two turnovers where he was simply dribbling the ball up the court and was ripped. No LeBron or Wade involved. He had another when he was penetrating and Chalmers poked the ball from behind off of him out of bounds. I'm sure there are others I can't remember that didn't involve LeBron and Wade.

Some turnovers against that defense can't be helped. But this propensity for turning the ball over simply bring the ball up the court is inexcusable. Does anyone else remember Avery Bradly ripping Lin the first time he brought the ball up the floor against the Celtics (pre-Linsanity)?

To quote Wikipedia:

Point guard (PG), also called the play maker or "the ball-handler," is one of the standard positions in a regulation basketball game and is commonly abbreviated "PG." A point guard has perhaps the most specialized role of any position – essentially, he is expected to run the team's offense by controlling the ball and making sure that it gets to the right players at the right time. Above all, the point guard must totally understand and accept his or her coach's game plan; in this way, the position can be compared to a quarterback in American football.

Those 8 TOs against the Heat, the 9 TOs against the Hornets...that's essentially pick 6s in football speak. I know he's essentially a rookie, and I love him to death, but no way no how you can compare 8 and 9 turnover games to 40% shooting and 21 pts/game. The "quarterback" of our Knicks must limit those bone-headed ones...the strips in the backcourt, or when he trapped and tries to dribble out of it, or bad crosscourt passes. The turnovers where he's aggressively driving to the hoop we can live with, but when it's because he tries to split the double, or he just carelessly gets stripped like he did against Chalmers and Cole are inexcusable.

airchibundo507 wrote:

MarburyAnd1Crossover wrote:

airchibundo507 wrote:

MarburyAnd1Crossover wrote:

misterearl wrote:

MarburyAnd1Crossover wrote:21 points on 39% fg is worse than Lin's 5 or 6 turnovers.

Can you prove that mathematically?

The six average turnovers could lead to 12 points. In the NBA, that is a lot to spot any team.

And I love Jeremy Lin.

He gets you 2 back with steals, and the turnovers are a result of his Style of Play, which contributes more to the good of the team than anything he gives away.

The Melo misses suck life out of the other players because, let's be honest, a lot of those shots have been from flow-killing ISOs.

do you have any concrete evidence supporting your view of Melo as a vampire?

Catch a pick-up game when you get a chance and see how much fun you have playing on a team where one guy constantly "ISOs". Note the effect this has on your approach to the game.

The only thing separating a Melo iso from facilitating an offense through a post scorer is off-ball movement. No one moves when Melo has the ball. He has proven to be a willing passer, if there were only cutters to stifle the defense.

I'm not sure how to respond to this.

If guys aren't cutting it's because they don't expect to see the ball. I saw plenty of cuts over the Pure Lin Days.

TripleThreat wrote:I think what's essential is the Knicks find a solid low post game and incorporate Steve Novak into the offense more when Lin is being doubled or pressed. Notice when Stat and Anthony were both out, Novak played more and was Lin's safety valve on offense. If you want to double Lin, you have to leave someone open, if it's Novak and he's on, then he will rain fire down on you.

As for Lin, I think he just needs time. He was a shooting guard in college and is really a ball dominant slasher/scorer working on converting to a point guard. I think so far he's done a good job because he's essentially playing fundamental team basketball, which is not how most teams are built to defend. Most teams are built to defend the David Stern type NBA team, where one superstar goes into iso and attacks one on four with three shooters as a bail out option. I don't think defenses can adjust fast enough to a situation where Lin passes to Billy Walker when he's open, simply because he's open, when 99 percent of the rest of the league is built to ignore the open man and just give it to the superstar to chuck it up. It's sad to say, but true team ball is something most of these players probably haven't seen since middle school.

Eventually what I think will help turnovers will be D'Antoni being a little bit smarter about time outs and actually using them to give Lin a breather and let him reset his mind and kill the other teams momentum. I also think the rest of the league is starting to figure out Lin is a game changer and will start to see how far they can hurt him, hit him and abuse him physically until the refs say no more. In that way, I think the Knicks need to assign Lin an enforcer like Jeffries or Walker to give some guard the occasional forearm shiver. Let them know, if you want to hack Lin, get a free jab, throw an elbow when the refs aren't looking, I'm going to play classic Knicks ball on you, I'm going to hurt you some.

IMHO, I don't have a problem with Anthony in iso as long as he's doing it in the post. This gives Lin a breather from constantly having to try to create. The benefit of Novak also is that he stretches the floor and gives Chandler more room to operate in the paint. I think it's not just Melo, but the whole team, if you double or press Lin, the Knicks will make you pay for it, and pay so much for it, that you can't double him anymore, then Lin can use his slashing ability to tear apart a defense.

Unfortunately, for this season, I don't think Lin will be able to drop his turnover rate. Lots of point guards, even Gary Payton, had to struggle early. One of the things you hear commentators say is that when teams see Lin twice, they will adjust, I think it works both ways, when Lin has seen them twice, he will have seen what they can throw at him. Then its not a surprise anymore. This is where I think Lin excels, when he sees something, he learns from it, adjusts and tries to prevent repeating the mistake.

Thats 2 really long posts for your first 2.

You really want to challenge our Attention Deficit Disorders!

misterearl wrote:

eViL wrote:more important for Melo to be efficient. Lin's turnovers are a product of him trying to get teammates involved. Melo's inefficiency is a product of bad shot selection. i can live with Lin trying to make creative plays for others and turning it over occasionally. i can't live with Melo taking contested fadeaways on a regular basis.

eVil - just curious, what minimum percentage would you expect Carmelo to shoot from the field?

Help me out here, when has Carmelo taken contested fadeaways on a regular basis during the Lin Dynasty?

The season starts tomorrow

Melo has to be more efficient, because he can and has been in the past. And he's been in the league however many years, and is paid the big bucks.

Different expectations.