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The Real Problem of a Melo/Amare Pairing
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loweyecue
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2/4/2012  4:57 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
loweyecue wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
loweyecue wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
loweyecue wrote:If you expected it to work within the the first 15 games then there is reason to despair. But that is essentially what being short sighted means.

So you can't address anything about the passing and turnovers? You can only repeat the same criticism we've heard for the past ten years - just give it more time?

Giving it more time is not a criticism. Amare is a finisher not known for his passing, Melo will definitely improve. Bringing the ball up the court is something he has not done before again expecting all this to work out in 15 games is short sighted.


But how are they ever going to complement each other? Has it ever worked where the top 2 players on a team are have bad A/TO ratios AND are also bad on defense? Can you or Nixluva cite some historical precedents?

Melo is not bad on defense. Can you cite examples of a team that has succeeded without a starting quality backcourt? People see what they want to see. I we had guards racking up assists Melo and Amare would be finishing.


Why? My argument is not that back-courts are unimportant. It's that our front-court duo doesn't make sense.
For argument's sake, let's put the defense aside and just address the first part of my question: Has it ever worked where the top 2 players on a team are have bad A/TO ratios?

Because you are evaluating an incomplete product and jumping to conclusions. For a team to play as a team it needs to have some fundamental coherence. If you don't have guards you front court will look out of sorts regardless of how they fit with each other.

TKF on Melo ::....he is a punk, a jerk, a self absorbed out of shape, self aggrandizing, unprofessional, volume chucking coach killing playoff loser!!
AUTOADVERT
Bonn1997
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2/4/2012  4:59 PM
loweyecue wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
loweyecue wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
loweyecue wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
loweyecue wrote:If you expected it to work within the the first 15 games then there is reason to despair. But that is essentially what being short sighted means.

So you can't address anything about the passing and turnovers? You can only repeat the same criticism we've heard for the past ten years - just give it more time?

Giving it more time is not a criticism. Amare is a finisher not known for his passing, Melo will definitely improve. Bringing the ball up the court is something he has not done before again expecting all this to work out in 15 games is short sighted.


But how are they ever going to complement each other? Has it ever worked where the top 2 players on a team are have bad A/TO ratios AND are also bad on defense? Can you or Nixluva cite some historical precedents?

Melo is not bad on defense. Can you cite examples of a team that has succeeded without a starting quality backcourt? People see what they want to see. I we had guards racking up assists Melo and Amare would be finishing.


Why? My argument is not that back-courts are unimportant. It's that our front-court duo doesn't make sense.
For argument's sake, let's put the defense aside and just address the first part of my question: Has it ever worked where the top 2 players on a team are have bad A/TO ratios?

Because you are evaluating an incomplete product and jumping to conclusions. For a team to play as a team it needs to have some fundamental coherence. If you don't have guards you front court will look out of sorts regardless of how they fit with each other.


In this thread, I'm evaluating their career A/TO ratios in order to evaluate whether the pairing makes sense. I'm not even referring to this year.
airchibundo507
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2/4/2012  5:00 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
airchibundo507 wrote:Melo is terrible at fighting through screens. His man defense is decent, though. Pierce missed every iso look Melo contested in the fourth. I think he's a slightly below average defender, but when he's motivated, he is about average.

The thread is dumb because Melo is a clearly different player now in regards to playmaking and facilitation; Amare's turnovers decrease when he has a PG to set him up, instead of setting himself up by plowing into the defense from 18 feet out.


He's at his career best in assist/TO ratio. Yet he's nowhere near where the championship duos above were.

This whole argument is arbitrary.

Before the Pistons won in 2004-2005, you would be the person asking, "has any team actually won a championship without a 20 ppg scorer?"

I bet you were asking last year, "can a team with no REAL low post threat (the Mavericks) really win a championship?"

You have star players. You surround them with a supporting cast that can compensate for their weaknesses. Plain and simple.

"LINISH HIM!"
loweyecue
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2/4/2012  5:04 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
loweyecue wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
loweyecue wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
loweyecue wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
loweyecue wrote:If you expected it to work within the the first 15 games then there is reason to despair. But that is essentially what being short sighted means.

So you can't address anything about the passing and turnovers? You can only repeat the same criticism we've heard for the past ten years - just give it more time?

Giving it more time is not a criticism. Amare is a finisher not known for his passing, Melo will definitely improve. Bringing the ball up the court is something he has not done before again expecting all this to work out in 15 games is short sighted.


But how are they ever going to complement each other? Has it ever worked where the top 2 players on a team are have bad A/TO ratios AND are also bad on defense? Can you or Nixluva cite some historical precedents?

Melo is not bad on defense. Can you cite examples of a team that has succeeded without a starting quality backcourt? People see what they want to see. I we had guards racking up assists Melo and Amare would be finishing.


Why? My argument is not that back-courts are unimportant. It's that our front-court duo doesn't make sense.
For argument's sake, let's put the defense aside and just address the first part of my question: Has it ever worked where the top 2 players on a team are have bad A/TO ratios?

Because you are evaluating an incomplete product and jumping to conclusions. For a team to play as a team it needs to have some fundamental coherence. If you don't have guards you front court will look out of sorts regardless of how they fit with each other.


In this thread, I'm evaluating their career A/TO ratios in order to evaluate whether the pairing makes sense. I'm not even referring to this year.

Why did you choose to focus on th A/TO ratio to judge level of fit? I am not saying its not relevant but is it the only thing?

TKF on Melo ::....he is a punk, a jerk, a self absorbed out of shape, self aggrandizing, unprofessional, volume chucking coach killing playoff loser!!
holfresh
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2/4/2012  5:05 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/4/2012  5:18 PM
Well Denver must be screwed too because Gallo and Nene is 1:1 too....
Bonn1997
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2/4/2012  5:21 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/4/2012  5:25 PM
loweyecue wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
loweyecue wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
loweyecue wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
loweyecue wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
loweyecue wrote:If you expected it to work within the the first 15 games then there is reason to despair. But that is essentially what being short sighted means.

So you can't address anything about the passing and turnovers? You can only repeat the same criticism we've heard for the past ten years - just give it more time?

Giving it more time is not a criticism. Amare is a finisher not known for his passing, Melo will definitely improve. Bringing the ball up the court is something he has not done before again expecting all this to work out in 15 games is short sighted.


But how are they ever going to complement each other? Has it ever worked where the top 2 players on a team are have bad A/TO ratios AND are also bad on defense? Can you or Nixluva cite some historical precedents?

Melo is not bad on defense. Can you cite examples of a team that has succeeded without a starting quality backcourt? People see what they want to see. I we had guards racking up assists Melo and Amare would be finishing.


Why? My argument is not that back-courts are unimportant. It's that our front-court duo doesn't make sense.
For argument's sake, let's put the defense aside and just address the first part of my question: Has it ever worked where the top 2 players on a team are have bad A/TO ratios?

Because you are evaluating an incomplete product and jumping to conclusions. For a team to play as a team it needs to have some fundamental coherence. If you don't have guards you front court will look out of sorts regardless of how they fit with each other.


In this thread, I'm evaluating their career A/TO ratios in order to evaluate whether the pairing makes sense. I'm not even referring to this year.

Why did you choose to focus on th A/TO ratio to judge level of fit? I am not saying its not relevant but is it the only thing?


It's a reasonable statistical approach to examining whether the two individual scorers will compliment each other on offense. If they compensated for being a poor fit on offense by playing outstanding defense, that would be another story. But we know that's not the case.
Bonn1997
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2/4/2012  5:23 PM
holfresh wrote:Well Denver must be screwed too because Gallo and Nene is 1:1 too....

Go back and re-read the first post. Then you'll see why you should be looking at Lawson and Gallo - not Nene (their 4th option on offense) and Gallo.
nixluva
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2/4/2012  5:59 PM
IN the history of the game I can't think of many duos that were great SF/PF tandems. It's usually a guard and a big. Either a PG or SG and a PF or C. Very rarely is it the great SF/PF duo that is talked about. Stockton/Malone, Nash/Stoudemire. Heck even Jordan/Pippen makes a bit more sense. It's very rare when you're talking elite combos for a SF and PF to be the guys working off each other.
Bonn1997
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2/4/2012  6:15 PM
nixluva wrote:IN the history of the game I can't think of many duos that were great SF/PF tandems. It's usually a guard and a big. Either a PG or SG and a PF or C. Very rarely is it the great SF/PF duo that is talked about. Stockton/Malone, Nash/Stoudemire. Heck even Jordan/Pippen makes a bit more sense. It's very rare when you're talking elite combos for a SF and PF to be the guys working off each other.

Maybe there's a reason for that.
raven
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2/4/2012  6:34 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
nixluva wrote:IN the history of the game I can't think of many duos that were great SF/PF tandems. It's usually a guard and a big. Either a PG or SG and a PF or C. Very rarely is it the great SF/PF duo that is talked about. Stockton/Malone, Nash/Stoudemire. Heck even Jordan/Pippen makes a bit more sense. It's very rare when you're talking elite combos for a SF and PF to be the guys working off each other.

Maybe there's a reason for that.

Maybe Paul Pierce and KG?
But this would be a moot point as both are willing and more than able passers, and KG is a beast on D and rebounding.
JCrusher
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2/4/2012  6:56 PM
The problem is that both guys are very gifted offensive players that demand the ball but they dont have much of a complete game. I mean if you look at boston and the heat all those stars have good overall games
mrKnickShot
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2/5/2012  1:11 AM
You kidding? Bird / Mchale???
nixluva
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2/5/2012  1:30 AM
raven wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
nixluva wrote:IN the history of the game I can't think of many duos that were great SF/PF tandems. It's usually a guard and a big. Either a PG or SG and a PF or C. Very rarely is it the great SF/PF duo that is talked about. Stockton/Malone, Nash/Stoudemire. Heck even Jordan/Pippen makes a bit more sense. It's very rare when you're talking elite combos for a SF and PF to be the guys working off each other.

Maybe there's a reason for that.

Maybe Paul Pierce and KG?
But this would be a moot point as both are willing and more than able passers, and KG is a beast on D and rebounding.

They're both great, but they also have Rondo, who has often been their best player in the Playoffs.
yellowboy90
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2/5/2012  1:39 AM
Before the title and final runs Paul Pierce was not thought of as a complete player.
loweyecue
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2/5/2012  10:27 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
loweyecue wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
loweyecue wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
loweyecue wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
loweyecue wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
loweyecue wrote:If you expected it to work within the the first 15 games then there is reason to despair. But that is essentially what being short sighted means.

So you can't address anything about the passing and turnovers? You can only repeat the same criticism we've heard for the past ten years - just give it more time?

Giving it more time is not a criticism. Amare is a finisher not known for his passing, Melo will definitely improve. Bringing the ball up the court is something he has not done before again expecting all this to work out in 15 games is short sighted.


But how are they ever going to complement each other? Has it ever worked where the top 2 players on a team are have bad A/TO ratios AND are also bad on defense? Can you or Nixluva cite some historical precedents?

Melo is not bad on defense. Can you cite examples of a team that has succeeded without a starting quality backcourt? People see what they want to see. I we had guards racking up assists Melo and Amare would be finishing.


Why? My argument is not that back-courts are unimportant. It's that our front-court duo doesn't make sense.
For argument's sake, let's put the defense aside and just address the first part of my question: Has it ever worked where the top 2 players on a team are have bad A/TO ratios?

Because you are evaluating an incomplete product and jumping to conclusions. For a team to play as a team it needs to have some fundamental coherence. If you don't have guards you front court will look out of sorts regardless of how they fit with each other.


In this thread, I'm evaluating their career A/TO ratios in order to evaluate whether the pairing makes sense. I'm not even referring to this year.

Why did you choose to focus on th A/TO ratio to judge level of fit? I am not saying its not relevant but is it the only thing?


It's a reasonable statistical approach to examining whether the two individual scorers will compliment each other on offense. If they compensated for being a poor fit on offense by playing outstanding defense, that would be another story. But we know that's not the case.

Cant say I agree with the premie here. Chemistry is a team thing, you can't really measure chemistry using stats by isolating two players. It doesn't work that way, at least not in my mind.

TKF on Melo ::....he is a punk, a jerk, a self absorbed out of shape, self aggrandizing, unprofessional, volume chucking coach killing playoff loser!!
CashMoney
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2/5/2012  10:50 AM
The real problem with the Melo & Amare pairing is that we're missing a PG (hopefully not anymore with Lin) and a consistant shooting guard. I know there are many here who are sick of the "it takes time" argument but that's my argument. We tend to forget that the pairing hasn't been going on for that long. It may seem like a long time but in reality it hasn't been. Lets look at an 82 game season body of work than dissect!

People forget that a team is not only 2 players. Melo is not a point forward, never has been never will. A strong PG will not force the action, he'll space the floor and distribute the ball. Look at Miami for God sake. Yeah they have Lebron, Dwade and Bosh but they also have guys like Chalmers, Anthony and Haslem. Look at the Bulls Dyansty. It was not just Jordan & Pippen. You also had guys like Paxson, Grant, Cartwright, Armstrong, Hodges, etc.

The Knicks are close. We have our 2 main pieces in Melo and STAT. We have our future #2 in Shump. We have our C in Chandler. We have Landry who can play the 2 and the 4. Lin may turn into our #1 but at minimum we may have found our backup PG. We have a big who can defend, rebound and shoot from the outside in Harrelson. If TD can get his stroke and his confidence back we have our backup 2.

STAT strugging this year has more to do with coming off an injury and not having camp to get his crap together. He's been playing much better as of late. 6 games under .500 is dissapointing but there is ton of ball left to play and the team is starting to take shape.

Wer beat Utah and Washington and will get to see how close we are when we take on the Lakers. As for the pairing it can and will work...mark my words.

Blue & Orange 4 Life!
Uptown
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2/5/2012  11:00 AM
CashMoney wrote:The real problem with the Melo & Amare pairing is that we're missing a PG (hopefully not anymore with Lin) and a consistant shooting guard. I know there are many here who are sick of the "it takes time" argument but that's my argument. We tend to forget that the pairing hasn't been going on for that long. It may seem like a long time but in reality it hasn't been. Lets look at an 82 game season body of work than dissect!

People forget that a team is not only 2 players. Melo is not a point forward, never has been never will. A strong PG will not force the action, he'll space the floor and distribute the ball. Look at Miami for God sake. Yeah they have Lebron, Dwade and Bosh but they also have guys like Chalmers, Anthony and Haslem. Look at the Bulls Dyansty. It was not just Jordan & Pippen. You also had guys like Paxson, Grant, Cartwright, Armstrong, Hodges, etc.

The Knicks are close. We have our 2 main pieces in Melo and STAT. We have our future #2 in Shump. We have our C in Chandler. We have Landry who can play the 2 and the 4. Lin may turn into our #1 but at minimum we may have found our backup PG. We have a big who can defend, rebound and shoot from the outside in Harrelson. If TD can get his stroke and his confidence back we have our backup 2.

STAT strugging this year has more to do with coming off an injury and not having camp to get his crap together. He's been playing much better as of late. 6 games under .500 is dissapointing but there is ton of ball left to play and the team is starting to take shape.

Wer beat Utah and Washington and will get to see how close we are when we take on the Lakers. As for the pairing it can and will work...mark my words.


Good Post. With our weak backcourt, Amare and Melo are asked to create their own offense. Niether one is being set up to finish or get open looks because we have no one to dribble-drive and collapse the D. Also, with the lack of perimeter shooting, the paint is a traffic jam of defenders not giving Melo or Amare any room to operate 15ft and in. They are constantly surrounded. Its a team game
tj23
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2/5/2012  11:04 AM
This team has no speed or court vision. They don't have many good reliable shooters either. Chandler hasn't changed the defensive culture. Melo n stat take bad shots and don't see the floor well. A pg can make us look better but there will always be problems when you don't make the right play on a consistent basis.
Bonn1997
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2/5/2012  11:44 AM    LAST EDITED: 2/5/2012  11:51 AM
CashMoney wrote:The real problem with the Melo & Amare pairing is that we're missing a PG (hopefully not anymore with Lin) and a consistant shooting guard. I know there are many here who are sick of the "it takes time" argument but that's my argument. We tend to forget that the pairing hasn't been going on for that long. It may seem like a long time but in reality it hasn't been. Lets look at an 82 game season body of work than dissect!

People forget that a team is not only 2 players. Melo is not a point forward, never has been never will. A strong PG will not force the action, he'll space the floor and distribute the ball. Look at Miami for God sake. Yeah they have Lebron, Dwade and Bosh but they also have guys like Chalmers, Anthony and Haslem. Look at the Bulls Dyansty. It was not just Jordan & Pippen. You also had guys like Paxson, Grant, Cartwright, Armstrong, Hodges, etc.

The Knicks are close. We have our 2 main pieces in Melo and STAT. We have our future #2 in Shump. We have our C in Chandler. We have Landry who can play the 2 and the 4. Lin may turn into our #1 but at minimum we may have found our backup PG. We have a big who can defend, rebound and shoot from the outside in Harrelson. If TD can get his stroke and his confidence back we have our backup 2.

STAT strugging this year has more to do with coming off an injury and not having camp to get his crap together. He's been playing much better as of late. 6 games under .500 is dissapointing but there is ton of ball left to play and the team is starting to take shape.

Wer beat Utah and Washington and will get to see how close we are when we take on the Lakers. As for the pairing it can and will work...mark my words.


They can play a lot better than they currently are playing if they have a better PG and SG. Even with an outstanding supporting cast (something Dolan has never been able to construct), I can't imagine a serious contending team ever having these two guys as the #1 and 2 players on their roster, though.
Bonn1997
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2/5/2012  1:26 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/5/2012  1:57 PM
loweyecue wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
loweyecue wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
loweyecue wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
loweyecue wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
loweyecue wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
loweyecue wrote:If you expected it to work within the the first 15 games then there is reason to despair. But that is essentially what being short sighted means.

So you can't address anything about the passing and turnovers? You can only repeat the same criticism we've heard for the past ten years - just give it more time?

Giving it more time is not a criticism. Amare is a finisher not known for his passing, Melo will definitely improve. Bringing the ball up the court is something he has not done before again expecting all this to work out in 15 games is short sighted.


But how are they ever going to complement each other? Has it ever worked where the top 2 players on a team are have bad A/TO ratios AND are also bad on defense? Can you or Nixluva cite some historical precedents?

Melo is not bad on defense. Can you cite examples of a team that has succeeded without a starting quality backcourt? People see what they want to see. I we had guards racking up assists Melo and Amare would be finishing.


Why? My argument is not that back-courts are unimportant. It's that our front-court duo doesn't make sense.
For argument's sake, let's put the defense aside and just address the first part of my question: Has it ever worked where the top 2 players on a team are have bad A/TO ratios?

Because you are evaluating an incomplete product and jumping to conclusions. For a team to play as a team it needs to have some fundamental coherence. If you don't have guards you front court will look out of sorts regardless of how they fit with each other.


In this thread, I'm evaluating their career A/TO ratios in order to evaluate whether the pairing makes sense. I'm not even referring to this year.

Why did you choose to focus on th A/TO ratio to judge level of fit? I am not saying its not relevant but is it the only thing?


It's a reasonable statistical approach to examining whether the two individual scorers will compliment each other on offense. If they compensated for being a poor fit on offense by playing outstanding defense, that would be another story. But we know that's not the case.

Cant say I agree with the premie here. Chemistry is a team thing, you can't really measure chemistry using stats by isolating two players. It doesn't work that way, at least not in my mind.


I don't buy your statement but I'll play along. What is it that they're doing so well together that tells you the "chemistry" currently compensates or in the future will compensate for the low assists and high turnovers? What players in the past have Amare and Melo had great chemistry with? (My guess is it's only players who had excellent A/TO #s.) Likewise, what pairs with bad assist/TO ratios in the past have had good chemistry?
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