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Is D'Antoni the problem?
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subzero0
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It happens over and over again in the NBA. Coaches get fired when the team cant win games. But many times after a team has fired one coach and hired another the team rarely improves until one or many player moves are made. There are a lot of fingers being pointed at D'Antoni. But I must ask, how many think that this is really the coaches fault? I cant imagine any other coach coming in here and being successful with this group.

I think the problem with the Knicks are the players not the coach. I dont think red auerbach himself can get this team to win a championship against these other nba teams at least to me. Amare is obviously hurt and has not practiced this past offseason, Carmelo still has the weight on him and cannot carry the team by himself and there is no good point guard here. Our shooting guard, whether it be douglas, fields or shumphert cant hit the open shot. How is that D'Antoni's fault. With all the strategies you can draw up, all of the video sessions you give, if the players cant hit their jumpshots there is really not much you can do about that. But this is just me. Out of my surprise at all the blame being pointed at D'Antoni, I must ask how much of us believe this is the coaches fault and believe another coach will get them to all of a sudden become a championship caliber team and how many of us think that this rests on the players and this team was constructed flawedly?

D'Antoni needs to be on the next bus!
Time to get rid of some players and start wheeling and dealing, this is on them.
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loweyecue
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1/27/2012  7:48 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
loweyecue wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:I don't think management did him any favors in acquiring Anthony and amnestying Billups. In fact it appears there was a disregard for what he needs to be successful. However, I also think that the Berger article that quoted Warkenstein is right when he says D'Antoni is a roster specific coach. I don't think he is the problem this year and I don't think he was put in the position where he can succeed. That being said I do think he had done enough in the past to warrant termination. This year is different. He is not part of the problem but I also don't think he is capable of solving it.

So when was he put in a position to succeed during his tenure as a Knick's coach?

I think pre-trade last year he had the team closest to what he needs to run his style. I think we differ in opinion about how much success he is actually capable of achieving without a totally stacked roster and an mvp running the point.

Right pre-trade last year he had a team that he was driving towards success. He had put the hard work in, taken the early losses worked his way back to .500 and WHAM. He was once again put in a position to fail. will get fired this year, its a sad reflection of just how sick our franchise is.

TKF on Melo ::....he is a punk, a jerk, a self absorbed out of shape, self aggrandizing, unprofessional, volume chucking coach killing playoff loser!!
AUTOADVERT
CrushAlot
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1/27/2012  7:59 PM
loweyecue wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
loweyecue wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:I don't think management did him any favors in acquiring Anthony and amnestying Billups. In fact it appears there was a disregard for what he needs to be successful. However, I also think that the Berger article that quoted Warkenstein is right when he says D'Antoni is a roster specific coach. I don't think he is the problem this year and I don't think he was put in the position where he can succeed. That being said I do think he had done enough in the past to warrant termination. This year is different. He is not part of the problem but I also don't think he is capable of solving it.

So when was he put in a position to succeed during his tenure as a Knick's coach?

I think pre-trade last year he had the team closest to what he needs to run his style. I think we differ in opinion about how much success he is actually capable of achieving without a totally stacked roster and an mvp running the point.

Right pre-trade last year he had a team that he was driving towards success. He had put the hard work in, taken the early losses worked his way back to .500 and WHAM. He was once again put in a position to fail. will get fired this year, its a sad reflection of just how sick our franchise is.

I really liked that pre-trade team but I think they were very opportunistic in when they won. They had a great run after a bad start going 13-1 during an easy part of their schedule. The Knicks didn't fall below .500 after that run but they did play below .500 up until the trade deadline from that point on. I think Amare's play and leadership had a lot to do with that teams success.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
loweyecue
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1/27/2012  8:08 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
loweyecue wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
loweyecue wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:I don't think management did him any favors in acquiring Anthony and amnestying Billups. In fact it appears there was a disregard for what he needs to be successful. However, I also think that the Berger article that quoted Warkenstein is right when he says D'Antoni is a roster specific coach. I don't think he is the problem this year and I don't think he was put in the position where he can succeed. That being said I do think he had done enough in the past to warrant termination. This year is different. He is not part of the problem but I also don't think he is capable of solving it.

So when was he put in a position to succeed during his tenure as a Knick's coach?

I think pre-trade last year he had the team closest to what he needs to run his style. I think we differ in opinion about how much success he is actually capable of achieving without a totally stacked roster and an mvp running the point.

Right pre-trade last year he had a team that he was driving towards success. He had put the hard work in, taken the early losses worked his way back to .500 and WHAM. He was once again put in a position to fail. will get fired this year, its a sad reflection of just how sick our franchise is.

I really liked that pre-trade team but I think they were very opportunistic in when they won. They had a great run after a bad start going 13-1 during an easy part of their schedule. The Knicks didn't fall below .500 after that run but they did play below .500 up until the trade deadline from that point on. I think Amare's play and leadership had a lot to do with that teams success.

That team was average to bad on defense, and the current version is showing that a single key addition like Tyson with some great contribution from Shumpert can raise the defense to top 10. And it's still the same guy coaching hem. Did Woodson make some miracle improvement? I don't know our defensive schemes have looked the same over the last 2-4 years. Only the execuion has changed.

TKF on Melo ::....he is a punk, a jerk, a self absorbed out of shape, self aggrandizing, unprofessional, volume chucking coach killing playoff loser!!
islesfan
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1/27/2012  8:28 PM
Antoni isn't part of the solution.

Fire Antoni Now!!

If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
nykshaknbake
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1/27/2012  9:09 PM
What exactly are we going to wheel and deal here?
ATrain
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1/27/2012  10:37 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
loweyecue wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:I don't think management did him any favors in acquiring Anthony and amnestying Billups. In fact it appears there was a disregard for what he needs to be successful. However, I also think that the Berger article that quoted Warkenstein is right when he says D'Antoni is a roster specific coach. I don't think he is the problem this year and I don't think he was put in the position where he can succeed. That being said I do think he had done enough in the past to warrant termination. This year is different. He is not part of the problem but I also don't think he is capable of solving it.

So when was he put in a position to succeed during his tenure as a Knick's coach?

I think pre-trade last year he had the team closest to what he needs to run his style. I think we differ in opinion about how much success he is actually capable of achieving without a totally stacked roster and an mvp running the point.

This is why I don't understand why people wouldn't want to give Jax a chance. One coach has a team stacked and perfectly fitting to his offense and isn't able to win. The other coach has some of the best players ever on his team and IS able to win. Am I missing something?
nixluva
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1/27/2012  10:41 PM
ATrain wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
loweyecue wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:I don't think management did him any favors in acquiring Anthony and amnestying Billups. In fact it appears there was a disregard for what he needs to be successful. However, I also think that the Berger article that quoted Warkenstein is right when he says D'Antoni is a roster specific coach. I don't think he is the problem this year and I don't think he was put in the position where he can succeed. That being said I do think he had done enough in the past to warrant termination. This year is different. He is not part of the problem but I also don't think he is capable of solving it.

So when was he put in a position to succeed during his tenure as a Knick's coach?

I think pre-trade last year he had the team closest to what he needs to run his style. I think we differ in opinion about how much success he is actually capable of achieving without a totally stacked roster and an mvp running the point.

This is why I don't understand why people wouldn't want to give Jax a chance. One coach has a team stacked and perfectly fitting to his offense and isn't able to win. The other coach has some of the best players ever on his team and IS able to win. Am I missing something?

What are you talking about? If you bring in Phil what is he gonna do with this exact same team? How about we fix this roster 1st and then see what we can do? Coach is the LEAST of our problems
ATrain
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1/27/2012  10:43 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/27/2012  10:44 PM
nixluva wrote:
ATrain wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
loweyecue wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:I don't think management did him any favors in acquiring Anthony and amnestying Billups. In fact it appears there was a disregard for what he needs to be successful. However, I also think that the Berger article that quoted Warkenstein is right when he says D'Antoni is a roster specific coach. I don't think he is the problem this year and I don't think he was put in the position where he can succeed. That being said I do think he had done enough in the past to warrant termination. This year is different. He is not part of the problem but I also don't think he is capable of solving it.

So when was he put in a position to succeed during his tenure as a Knick's coach?

I think pre-trade last year he had the team closest to what he needs to run his style. I think we differ in opinion about how much success he is actually capable of achieving without a totally stacked roster and an mvp running the point.

This is why I don't understand why people wouldn't want to give Jax a chance. One coach has a team stacked and perfectly fitting to his offense and isn't able to win. The other coach has some of the best players ever on his team and IS able to win. Am I missing something?

What are you talking about? If you bring in Phil what is he gonna do with this exact same team? How about we fix this roster 1st and then see what we can do? Coach is the LEAST of our problems

THE SYSTEM IS NOT GETTING YOU A TITLE! Regardless of who is on the roster.
colombian0725
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1/27/2012  10:45 PM
I think he contributes to it. He doesn't have a point guard but it's still no excuse. He could adapt a little better. IMO but meh what do I know.
y2zipper
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1/27/2012  10:46 PM
CrushAlot wrote:I don't think management did him any favors in acquiring Anthony and amnestying Billups. In fact it appears there was a disregard for what he needs to be successful. However, I also think that the Berger article that quoted Warkenstein is right when he says D'Antoni is a roster specific coach. I don't think he is the problem this year and I don't think he was put in the position where he can succeed. That being said I do think he had done enough in the past to warrant termination. This year is different. He is not part of the problem but I also don't think he is capable of solving it.

I agree that D'Antoni is a roster-specific coach, but that argument is true for just about any successful coach you can think of. Phil Jackson has a similar roster every time he takes a job, Doc Rivers doesn't win until he gets three Hall-of-Famers, etc... Now, D'Antoni might be a little more roster-specific than the group I mentioned, but the fact remains the same: you're not winning in the NBA if you don't have really really good players to build around.

Acquiring Carmelo Anthony and building the team around an elite wing player instead of an elite point guard is a disservice to Mike D'Antoni because his system isn't built for that type of player, but even a player of Anthony's caliber is so hard to come by that I believe you have to get those players whenever the opportunity presents itself. The situation isn't ideal (Ideally you'd get Chris Paul and Amar'e, etc..., but we learned from both 2010 and the present Nets team that waiting for Free Agency and hoping is a dangerous game (it worked for us in 2010 because we had to purge Isiah's garbage, but D'Antoni has to adjust to it). At this point, he hasn't proven that he can. I don't believe that makes him a bad coach, but he won't get a contract extension if the team doesn't play to expectations because the players aren't going to change.
ATrain
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1/27/2012  11:00 PM
y2zipper wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:I don't think management did him any favors in acquiring Anthony and amnestying Billups. In fact it appears there was a disregard for what he needs to be successful. However, I also think that the Berger article that quoted Warkenstein is right when he says D'Antoni is a roster specific coach. I don't think he is the problem this year and I don't think he was put in the position where he can succeed. That being said I do think he had done enough in the past to warrant termination. This year is different. He is not part of the problem but I also don't think he is capable of solving it.

I agree that D'Antoni is a roster-specific coach, but that argument is true for just about any successful coach you can think of. Phil Jackson has a similar roster every time he takes a job, Doc Rivers doesn't win until he gets three Hall-of-Famers, etc... Now, D'Antoni might be a little more roster-specific than the group I mentioned, but the fact remains the same: you're not winning in the NBA if you don't have really really good players to build around.

Acquiring Carmelo Anthony and building the team around an elite wing player instead of an elite point guard is a disservice to Mike D'Antoni because his system isn't built for that type of player, but even a player of Anthony's caliber is so hard to come by that I believe you have to get those players whenever the opportunity presents itself. The situation isn't ideal (Ideally you'd get Chris Paul and Amar'e, etc..., but we learned from both 2010 and the present Nets team that waiting for Free Agency and hoping is a dangerous game (it worked for us in 2010 because we had to purge Isiah's garbage, but D'Antoni has to adjust to it). At this point, he hasn't proven that he can. I don't believe that makes him a bad coach, but he won't get a contract extension if the team doesn't play to expectations because the players aren't going to change.


Finally, some sense. It seems as if some people are much more satisfied with going to playoffs with Felton,Gallo,Chandler,Amare etc than winning a championship with our current nucleus. If Kobe Bryant falls into your lap you just don't trade him because he doesn't fit your system. You get rid of the coach and find a system that is fit for him. Now if this was Iguodala, Rudy Gay, Danny Granger, JJohnson, Crawford(all great scorers btw)of course the argument would be different. But players of Anthony's caliber are rare and you keep those players and you give yourself the best possible chance to win with that player. Not only that, but Dolan sells more by getting Anthony. And if he wants to continue to sell, he will keep Anthony and get a coach who is happy to have Anthony.
nixluva
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1/27/2012  11:00 PM
All I see is that he's made attempts to adjust every single time we've changed the roster. He had Zach, Lee and Jamal and had that team looking decent. He had the team last year which was coming together and playing well, before the Trade Drama got the best of our young guys. He had the team ready for the Playoffs before CB and STAT got hurt. I don't see how he's the problem when we gave him a PG for HALF a Season and then traded him and then got rid of his replacement. Now what does he have?

They're not even running the offense fully. As someone mentioned we only go East and West now. Last year we had the North/South thing going too, which is why we were a top 5 offense in the league.

Also doesn't he get credit for the defense being good. They're # 7 in the league and really played well tonight for the most part. It's not a perfect D, but it's better than any of his detractors give him credit for.
Anji
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1/27/2012  11:02 PM
Sorry, but you can make the case that this is the worst coach in the NBA.

You can't masquerade this 7 seconds or mess as anything more than good players and great point guard play.

We know you can't get your star players shots because your offense is all about "ball movement", ie your point guard doing everything.

We know you can't even get your gunners like Novack or Billy walker when he is shooting out of his mind the ball, because it's not free flowing free love basketball, pie in the sky bull**** offense that weights every player equally open. So you whined up with smart teams playing up on your players making shots and playing off of JJ2.

That is such a great offense it blows my mind.
That unless you have 5 players that can equally make shots and pressure the defense equally at the same time, your offense falls a part because any team that has a brain pays more attention defensively to your players making shots. Leaving the players who don't want or can't make shots more open. And that's your offensive design, great master mind??? Good players making shots is our game plan!!! Fuck out of here!!!


Fire this guy tomorrow, the team getting hot doesn't change the fact that this guy basically rolls the balls out and crosses his fingers leaving everything up to what the defense gives us and what his point guard can do. Instead of actually imposing a game plan on the other team and making them react. This is why despite great talent this guy always lost, because there is always going to be a point when teams don't give you anything and you can't pray that your point guard finds what the other team is giving up. There is always going to be a point where the team playing against us doesn't have to neglect any area of the court to play great defense. And to likely get to this great team you either have to find perfect players or neglect the defensive side of the ball.

Fire Antoni!!!!!!

"Really, all Americans want is a cold beer, warm p***y, and some place to s**t with a door on it." - Mr. Ford
ATrain
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1/27/2012  11:04 PM
nixluva wrote:All I see is that he's made attempts to adjust every single time we've changed the roster. He had Zach, Lee and Jamal and had that team looking decent. He had the team last year which was coming together and playing well, before the Trade Drama got the best of our young guys. He had the team ready for the Playoffs before CB and STAT got hurt. I don't see how he's the problem when we gave him a PG for HALF a Season and then traded him and then got rid of his replacement. Now what does he have?

They're not even running the offense fully. As someone mentioned we only go East and West now. Last year we had the North/South thing going too, which is why we were a top 5 offense in the league.

Also doesn't he get credit for the defense being good. They're # 7 in the league and really played well tonight for the most part. It's not a perfect D, but it's better than any of his detractors give him credit for.


Does he get the credit? Or does Woodson? Legit question, no bashing.
nykshaknbake
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1/27/2012  11:06 PM
Wow. What a load of horse$hit. The team was not driving toward sucess pre trade. We were almost 10 game sover 0.500 then worked our way to 2 games over 0.500. I get you like him but how about putting things that are true rather than false in his defense?

loweyecue wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
loweyecue wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:I don't think management did him any favors in acquiring Anthony and amnestying Billups. In fact it appears there was a disregard for what he needs to be successful. However, I also think that the Berger article that quoted Warkenstein is right when he says D'Antoni is a roster specific coach. I don't think he is the problem this year and I don't think he was put in the position where he can succeed. That being said I do think he had done enough in the past to warrant termination. This year is different. He is not part of the problem but I also don't think he is capable of solving it.

So when was he put in a position to succeed during his tenure as a Knick's coach?

I think pre-trade last year he had the team closest to what he needs to run his style. I think we differ in opinion about how much success he is actually capable of achieving without a totally stacked roster and an mvp running the point.

Right pre-trade last year he had a team that he was driving towards success. He had put the hard work in, taken the early losses worked his way back to .500 and WHAM. He was once again put in a position to fail. will get fired this year, its a sad reflection of just how sick our franchise is.
nixluva
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1/27/2012  11:09 PM
ATrain wrote:
nixluva wrote:All I see is that he's made attempts to adjust every single time we've changed the roster. He had Zach, Lee and Jamal and had that team looking decent. He had the team last year which was coming together and playing well, before the Trade Drama got the best of our young guys. He had the team ready for the Playoffs before CB and STAT got hurt. I don't see how he's the problem when we gave him a PG for HALF a Season and then traded him and then got rid of his replacement. Now what does he have?

They're not even running the offense fully. As someone mentioned we only go East and West now. Last year we had the North/South thing going too, which is why we were a top 5 offense in the league.

Also doesn't he get credit for the defense being good. They're # 7 in the league and really played well tonight for the most part. It's not a perfect D, but it's better than any of his detractors give him credit for.


Does he get the credit? Or does Woodson? Legit question, no bashing.

IT's the same defense and really Woodson is here to bring a different voice and add to what they're doing. They still have issues they need to address, but they're getting better. The major improvement was Tyson and Shump and the whole team is buying in more. We didn't have an Anchor of Tyson's level and in fact MDA has never had one. This is the 1st legit Center he's had in his prime. Shaq was done.

He got killed for his D, but his teams were never BAD defensive teams. He had Nash and STAT in the middle of his D, which I believe is why they would suck on D at times. Now that he has Tyson you can see that his defense isn't as bad as people said it was. #7 in defensive efficiency is really good.
ItalianStallion
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1/27/2012  11:10 PM
It wasn't D'Antoni that wanted to gut a young improving team of multiple players that fit the system well and also give up the cap space and draft picks that could have been used to fill out the missing pieces for an overrated overpaid self centered Prima donna that doesn't fit with Amare or the coach's style.
JCrusher
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1/27/2012  11:11 PM
ItalianStallion wrote:It wasn't D'Antoni that wanted to gut a young improving team of multiple players that fit the system well and also give up the cap space and draft picks that could have been used to fill out the missing pieces for an overrated overpaid self centered Prima donna that doesn't fit with Amare or the coach's style.
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2105538,00.html
ATrain
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1/27/2012  11:16 PM
ItalianStallion wrote:It wasn't D'Antoni that wanted to gut a young improving team of multiple players that fit the system well and also give up the cap space and draft picks that could have been used to fill out the missing pieces for an overrated overpaid self centered Prima donna that doesn't fit with Amare or the coach's style.

And just how far would we have gone with this "young improving team"?
JCrusher
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1/27/2012  11:18 PM
ATrain wrote:
ItalianStallion wrote:It wasn't D'Antoni that wanted to gut a young improving team of multiple players that fit the system well and also give up the cap space and draft picks that could have been used to fill out the missing pieces for an overrated overpaid self centered Prima donna that doesn't fit with Amare or the coach's style.

And just how far would we have gone with this "young improving team"?

How far are we going now? backwards lol
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