nixluva wrote:I'M BACK BITCHES!!!

I felt it was time for me to come back, tho it's sooner than I expected given how I felt when I stepped away. The short rest has been good for me. It helped me gain some clarity. I'm back to bring balance to the Force!!!

Now to my points on building this Knicks team. With the hiring of Walsh and D'Antoni, the overarching plan was to rebuild the team around 2-3 All Star level players. Everything was sacrificed for this goal. 2 full seasons of basketball, draft picks, youth... All of these assets were on the table. In the end Walsh wasn't allowed to finish his grand scheme, but he did enough to get the team to the door of putting together a core of All Star talent. Now we have to recognize the separation between the Walsh plan which ended with Dolan taking over the Melo negotiations and the GRUNWALD PLAN, which started this summer!

1. The core talent of STAT, Melo and Tyson made all kinds of sense. Judging the viability of that group after 16 games is shortsighted. They were put together to be the core for 4 years including this one. In truth you can't call it a failure after a quarter season, without a PG!!! The big hole is the Backcourt, but Grunwald has a plan there as well. They knew it was risky giving up CB, but it had to be done for the FUTURE of the franchise. Remember it's not all about this year, but the next 4 years!!! There are going to be more PG's available than starting Defensive Centers on Tyson's level, so you have to make the trade of CB or Tyson.

2. TD was a gamble to try and stall until Baron could get back. OK it didn't work! Signing Baron Davis was a part of the Grunwald plan after the Tyson trade and anyone that doesn't think so is nuts. The Knicks were going to add a Vet PG anyway, but once it was set that the new CBA would have this amnesty then the Knicks were going to go thru the list of possible players and target any PG's that could shake loose. Davis was at the top of the list, despite his back injury. Having a bonafide passer to dominate the ball limits the amount of bad passes and non passes that lead to bad possessions and reliance on ISO with Melo. In other words it means EVERYTHING to how this team performs on offense. STAT, Melo and Tyson work better with a PG to balance distribution. TD, Fields, Shump, Walker etc. shoot better when setup in rhythm.

Just look at how this team flopped once CB went down. How the team struggled when Duhon, Felton and CB struggled to learn the system. Part of the problem is that all 3 aren't great passers and that's a primary skill when you have a team full of finishers that need to be setup. MDA's system is about tempo, spacing and flow. When it's done right it's a beauty to behold. If Davis can be as good or better than Felton was in this system then this team can be a contender. Davis was still athletic enough to dunk just months ago, so perhaps he's slowed down to Felton's level at this point. He's a superior passer and ball handler to Felton.

3. It's part of the Grunwald plan to add an additional vet with the Trade deadline and Chinese League NBA players coming back, there will be options. Grunwald and the staff knew this and hoped to hold on until they could make some follow up moves. This is why we still have a "Room Exception" slot left. JR Smith or Kenyon Martin will be in play.

4. There's still a chance that a small trade can be made at the trade deadline. This team will be easier to evaluate by then. Needs can be assessed after more time has passed and if they need to fill a void they'll have a shot to do that.

5. 2012 Free Agency will be another chance to improve the team this summer. We'll have the full MLE to use on a key vet and that will be huge for this team going forward.

Those are the basic aspects of the Grunwald plan so far. Some Knicks fans have jumped ship on this core so early without taking a long view of how this can all workout.

The most important issue is the PG spot. Every coach needs someone on the floor that can execute his vision for the team. Minus that you have CHAOS, cuz you have players handling the ball and making decisions that aren't equipped to do that. The only hope is for Davis to build his stamina, develop chemistry with his team and stay healthy. Next year we can try to add another Vet PG like Nash. Continue to develop our youth. Look for FA's to add more shooting depth. Develop more team chemistry and be ready by the playoffs. This is still year one of this core! Even STAT and Melo haven't been together for a full 82 games yet!

WB, Nix. ANd thanks for getting the positive vibe going again. Dang it was getting downright depressing reading this forum.

THE SKY IS NOT FALLING

Knixkik wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:I do not agree with your statement that getting Davis was a part of Grunwald's plan when he amnestied Chauncey. Baron had not yet been amnestied, he could have been claimed on waivers, and other big market teams, the Heat, Lakers etc. were expressing interest. I think the Knicks got lucky with that one.

You have to remember that everyone knew the players that were most likely to be amnestied. It wasn't a surprise to anyone really. Also it's not so much about Baron specifically as it was that they were aware the several players would shake loose so they had that confidence that they could find a replacement for Billups. One way or the other they had it in the plans to find help at PG. There's no way they made that trade thinking they had enough at PG with just TD. Logic would suggest that none of the Knicks brass is that off base.

I believe they made that move with specific PGs in mind that they projected may get amnestied and would be stopgaps and Davis was one of them. The logic behind this move was very simple, the opportunity to get a real impact center was right now, and it would be the last opportunity for the foreseeable future. They also understood that Billups was not the long-term solution (he's a good player but breaking down and not a good fit as a player) and they knew we would have a different PG after this season anyways.

They knew we have the opportunity to add a major PG this summer (they probably know something we can only suspect, maybe about Nash), and did not want to pass getting a true center when the opportunity to get that PG would be there anyways. They knew Douglas was not the answer, but may have been willing to take 1 step back (which is now without a PG) to take 2 steps foward later (having both the PG and C to surround Melo and Stat) and i completely agree with that logic.

My thoughts exactly, a calculated risk that worked out OK - at least in terms of roster. Now whether he can really be the missing piece remains to be seen.

Just kidding - welcome back

GustavBahler wrote:Some good point Nixluva, especially about the PG play. You are right TD getting all those minutes was a mistake and Bibby should of had more of his minutes in that stretch. I've seen too many games since D'Antoni became coach where there was a lack of effort. No excuse for giving Shumpert, a rookie, the green light for that 5-20 performance. No excuse for letting Quentin Richardson and Chris Duhon start as many games as they did, I don't care who was on the bench at the time, they were beyond awful.

D'Antoni ran Duhon into the ground with league leading minutes and still played him when he was a shell of the player he was earlier in the season and couldn't run the offense. No excuse for the letting games get out of reach before calling a time out. No excuse for telling Gallo to stand behind the 3 point line for a good part of the season and jack up threes all day when he clearly knew how to drive to the rim, this is after he had recovered from his back problems.

No excuse for playing Jeffries as much as he has since becoming coach, but I will say the Chandler/Jeffries tandem has looked good as of late. The trick is now to get him to play under control after making a bucket. Jeffries gets a bit ahead of himself at times after scoring.

Not trying to rain on your parade Nixluva but you seem unable to concede that the job D'Antoni has done as coach has been part of the problem. Its always someone else's fault. His critics are "laughable" or "nuts". Its nuts to believe as head coach that he isn't at the very least part of the reason for the Knicks record.

I recognize these complaints and I'll start with this point here.

1. TD was the only reasonable option to try and run with at 1st. He's been here the longest. He's younger and a better defender than Bibby and they had no way to know that TD would start the year in a slump!!!

2. Q and Duhon is like 2 lifetimes ago! Can we just move on from any nitpicking about those days? People think Duhon was MDA's preference, but let's be real, he was all that MDA was allowed to have. I can think of a ton of other PG's that MDA would've loved to have and would've found a LOT more success with.

3. Shump is giving MAX effort out there. In MDA's mind, he'll put up with a kid learning how to balance his game, especially since he's had almost no real training for the job of starting PG in SSOL. That short preseaseon was nothing. If Shump was a pure PG then i'd expect more, but the kid is a Combo guard that is more of a scorer than a passer so... Why kill the kids spirit when it's not necessary to teach him?

4. Like Shump, Jared defends and MDA contrary to what SO MANY people say, has no problem playing good defensive players on his teams. The only thing anyone can hold against Jared is he's a poor offensive player, but so what? If you check the stats Jared makes the defense better.

Look if this team had a permanent solution at PG for several years now, you'd have seen a lot more success. As i've pointed out already, just look at what happens when you give him at least a decent PG?

2011-12 with TD, Shump, Bibby    - #17 in scoring, #24 in Offensive Efficiency
2010-11 with Felton, TD, CB      - #2  in scoring, #5  in Off. Eff.
2009-10 with Duhon, TD, Hughes   - #10 in scoring, #17 in Off. Eff.
2008-09 with Duhon, Nate, Hughes - #4  in scoring, #17 in Off. Eff.
2007-08 with Nash                - #3  in scoring, #2  in Off. Eff.
2006-07 with Nash                - #1  in scoring, #1  in Off. Eff.
2005-06 with Nash                - #1  in scoring, #2  in Off. Eff.
2004-05 with Nash                - #1  in scoring, #1  in Off. Eff.

Knixkik wrote:Just work hard to go get D'antoni his PG this summer. Sign Nash for 3-years 5 million each year. I believe he will come. That means the core of Melo, Stoudemire, Chandler, and Nash has 3 years to win, and give D'Antoni 1 year extension to see if he can make it happen with his team. If it doesn't work, change coaches to see if it helps, if that doesn't work blow it up and try again. But i think it will work and i would be overjoyed to see this core of players, as i believe they can put it together and compete for a title.

With the way Andre Miller and Nash, it would be very interesting if we can add either PG, not to mention Baron Davis being a possibility but we first have to see how he performs. Miller is the better defender, while Nash would be ideal offensively, and probably the better mentor to groom our future PG. TD looked a lot better yesterday but in the end, he is a shooter, and not a PG, if we can add a Point/Forward, it would be great for TD.

We have yet to see Iman being able to play a true SG, without a real PG, in which he has to worry about helping with Melo. Also, we don't know if his defense would be better at the SG vs the PG, without the size, athleticism, and length to his advantage.

nixluva wrote:

airchibundo507 wrote:We should go all in for Howard, though. I don't see Amare as a guy on a championship team. His lack of defense (especially pnr), rebounding and passing is just too much to overcome. Even if we gutted the team for Howard, we'd still pick up JR for cheap and then Nash over the summer. All you really need to win a championship is Melo, Howard and shooters. Howard and shooters alone are an elite defensive team capable of reaching the Finals. Now give him the best scorer in the league and you get a perennial contender.

Nash/JR/Melo/Turk/Howard
Shump/shooter/Walker/Jorts/Jeffries

I just don't see it happening. I'm not convinced that Orlando really wants to do that deal. Getting Howard is a fantasy IMO.

In the meantime, we can get this train back on the rails with B. Diddy slowly getting into the groove over the next 30 days. The team just needs to do enough to win some games during this adjustment period.

In regards to STAT, I refuse to believe that he's done already. Until I get to see him playing more of his usual role in his usual spots, I don't believe that he's lost so much of his quickness that he can't be effective anymore. He's still getting by his man, but the defense is waiting for him in much the same way it was to start last year before Felton got his act together. STAT can't hold the ball and try to drive from way out on the floor and be successful. He needs to get the ball within 2 steps of the basket. That's how he's been dominant all his career and we've gotten away from that, due to a lack of proper spacing and PG play. It's funny how a few easy buckets gets a player in rhythm and full confidence in his jumper.

Sooner or later guys will come out of their slumps and hit a period of better shooting. TD, Fields, Bibby and Walker can easily hit a hot streak. I've been pleased with Shump's growth so far. I think he's getting more and more comfortable with what he can do to help the team.

Not fantasy. Melo for Dwight is very possible.

CrushAlot wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:I do not agree with your statement that getting Davis was a part of Grunwald's plan when he amnestied Chauncey. Baron had not yet been amnestied, he could have been claimed on waivers, and other big market teams, the Heat, Lakers etc. were expressing interest. I think the Knicks got lucky with that one.

You have to remember that everyone knew the players that were most likely to be amnestied. It wasn't a surprise to anyone really. Also it's not so much about Baron specifically as it was that they were aware the several players would shake loose so they had that confidence that they could find a replacement for Billups. One way or the other they had it in the plans to find help at PG. There's no way they made that trade thinking they had enough at PG with just TD. Logic would suggest that none of the Knicks brass is that off base.

I believe they made that move with specific PGs in mind that they projected may get amnestied and would be stopgaps and Davis was one of them. The logic behind this move was very simple, the opportunity to get a real impact center was right now, and it would be the last opportunity for the foreseeable future. They also understood that Billups was not the long-term solution (he's a good player but breaking down and not a good fit as a player) and they knew we would have a different PG after this season anyways.

They knew we have the opportunity to add a major PG this summer (they probably know something we can only suspect, maybe about Nash), and did not want to pass getting a true center when the opportunity to get that PG would be there anyways. They knew Douglas was not the answer, but may have been willing to take 1 step back (which is now without a PG) to take 2 steps foward later (having both the PG and C to surround Melo and Stat) and i completely agree with that logic.

My thoughts exactly, a calculated risk that worked out OK - at least in terms of roster. Now whether he can really be the missing piece remains to be seen.

Who was the alternative if it wasn't Davis? Charlie Bell, and Gilbert Arenas are the only guys that I recall that play the point that were amnestied.. If I am leaving out a point guard that was waived please let me know. I don't think this was a plan. Maybe Grunwald tries to acquire somebody but I don't think he was 'planning' on Davis being amnestied, clearing waivers and then choosing the Knicks over the Heat and Lakers. It happened but I don't think he planned that out.

nixluva wrote:I'M BACK BITCHES!!!

I felt it was time for me to come back, tho it's sooner than I expected given how I felt when I stepped away. The short rest has been good for me. It helped me gain some clarity. I'm back to bring balance to the Force!!!

Now to my points on building this Knicks team. With the hiring of Walsh and D'Antoni, the overarching plan was to rebuild the team around 2-3 All Star level players. Everything was sacrificed for this goal. 2 full seasons of basketball, draft picks, youth... All of these assets were on the table. In the end Walsh wasn't allowed to finish his grand scheme, but he did enough to get the team to the door of putting together a core of All Star talent. Now we have to recognize the separation between the Walsh plan which ended with Dolan taking over the Melo negotiations and the GRUNWALD PLAN, which started this summer!

1. The core talent of STAT, Melo and Tyson made all kinds of sense. Judging the viability of that group after 16 games is shortsighted. They were put together to be the core for 4 years including this one. In truth you can't call it a failure after a quarter season, without a PG!!! The big hole is the Backcourt, but Grunwald has a plan there as well. They knew it was risky giving up CB, but it had to be done for the FUTURE of the franchise. Remember it's not all about this year, but the next 4 years!!! There are going to be more PG's available than starting Defensive Centers on Tyson's level, so you have to make the trade of CB or Tyson.

2. TD was a gamble to try and stall until Baron could get back. OK it didn't work! Signing Baron Davis was a part of the Grunwald plan after the Tyson trade and anyone that doesn't think so is nuts. The Knicks were going to add a Vet PG anyway, but once it was set that the new CBA would have this amnesty then the Knicks were going to go thru the list of possible players and target any PG's that could shake loose. Davis was at the top of the list, despite his back injury. Having a bonafide passer to dominate the ball limits the amount of bad passes and non passes that lead to bad possessions and reliance on ISO with Melo. In other words it means EVERYTHING to how this team performs on offense. STAT, Melo and Tyson work better with a PG to balance distribution. TD, Fields, Shump, Walker etc. shoot better when setup in rhythm.

Just look at how this team flopped once CB went down. How the team struggled when Duhon, Felton and CB struggled to learn the system. Part of the problem is that all 3 aren't great passers and that's a primary skill when you have a team full of finishers that need to be setup. MDA's system is about tempo, spacing and flow. When it's done right it's a beauty to behold. If Davis can be as good or better than Felton was in this system then this team can be a contender. Davis was still athletic enough to dunk just months ago, so perhaps he's slowed down to Felton's level at this point. He's a superior passer and ball handler to Felton.

3. It's part of the Grunwald plan to add an additional vet with the Trade deadline and Chinese League NBA players coming back, there will be options. Grunwald and the staff knew this and hoped to hold on until they could make some follow up moves. This is why we still have a "Room Exception" slot left. JR Smith or Kenyon Martin will be in play.

4. There's still a chance that a small trade can be made at the trade deadline. This team will be easier to evaluate by then. Needs can be assessed after more time has passed and if they need to fill a void they'll have a shot to do that.

5. 2012 Free Agency will be another chance to improve the team this summer. We'll have the full MLE to use on a key vet and that will be huge for this team going forward.

Those are the basic aspects of the Grunwald plan so far. Some Knicks fans have jumped ship on this core so early without taking a long view of how this can all workout.

The most important issue is the PG spot. Every coach needs someone on the floor that can execute his vision for the team. Minus that you have CHAOS, cuz you have players handling the ball and making decisions that aren't equipped to do that. The only hope is for Davis to build his stamina, develop chemistry with his team and stay healthy. Next year we can try to add another Vet PG like Nash. Continue to develop our youth. Look for FA's to add more shooting depth. Develop more team chemistry and be ready by the playoffs. This is still year one of this core! Even STAT and Melo haven't been together for a full 82 games yet!

BITCHES we are... Dolan bitches... And he f...ed us nice.
We all think he and Isiah are idiots... But looks like the idiots are other people... a lot of them.

loweyecue wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:I do not agree with your statement that getting Davis was a part of Grunwald's plan when he amnestied Chauncey. Baron had not yet been amnestied, he could have been claimed on waivers, and other big market teams, the Heat, Lakers etc. were expressing interest. I think the Knicks got lucky with that one.

You have to remember that everyone knew the players that were most likely to be amnestied. It wasn't a surprise to anyone really. Also it's not so much about Baron specifically as it was that they were aware the several players would shake loose so they had that confidence that they could find a replacement for Billups. One way or the other they had it in the plans to find help at PG. There's no way they made that trade thinking they had enough at PG with just TD. Logic would suggest that none of the Knicks brass is that off base.

I believe they made that move with specific PGs in mind that they projected may get amnestied and would be stopgaps and Davis was one of them. The logic behind this move was very simple, the opportunity to get a real impact center was right now, and it would be the last opportunity for the foreseeable future. They also understood that Billups was not the long-term solution (he's a good player but breaking down and not a good fit as a player) and they knew we would have a different PG after this season anyways.

They knew we have the opportunity to add a major PG this summer (they probably know something we can only suspect, maybe about Nash), and did not want to pass getting a true center when the opportunity to get that PG would be there anyways. They knew Douglas was not the answer, but may have been willing to take 1 step back (which is now without a PG) to take 2 steps foward later (having both the PG and C to surround Melo and Stat) and i completely agree with that logic.

My thoughts exactly, a calculated risk that worked out OK - at least in terms of roster. Now whether he can really be the missing piece remains to be seen.

Who was the alternative if it wasn't Davis? Charlie Bell, and Gilbert Arenas are the only guys that I recall that play the point that were amnestied.. If I am leaving out a point guard that was waived please let me know. I don't think this was a plan. Maybe Grunwald tries to acquire somebody but I don't think he was 'planning' on Davis being amnestied, clearing waivers and then choosing the Knicks over the Heat and Lakers. It happened but I don't think he planned that out.

You are right he I agreed wit the post suggesting he flipped a PG for a C. Cs are almost impossible to get. In our limited cap space he made a good move and took a risk on PG probably expecting at worst to ride out the seasonwith TD. Just because we hink we are contenders now doesn't mwan Grunwald is planning for this season only.

Grunwald is Dolans puppet. His planning are a phone line to Isiah cell phone with Dolan eyedropping every call.

nixluva wrote:

colombian0725 wrote:With all that said... Can we keep MDA too? if only we would be so lucky

Well, I see no reason to change the coach if you know that he's not the reason the team is floundering on offense. We don't yet have a permanent solution at the PG or SG, so that means you can still add players that fit what this coach is trying to do. Who knows maybe Baron is that guy for now. Very few people had any faith that Felton would be as good as he was under this coach and look what happened. Once Felton got the hang of it, he was pretty good. Not great, but pretty good. Give this coach a QB and he has proven that he can produce a top 5 offense.

2011-12 with TD, Shump, Bibby    - #17 in scoring, #24 in Offensive Efficiency
2010-11 with Felton, TD, CB      - #2  in scoring, #5  in Off. Eff.
2009-10 with Duhon, TD, Hughes   - #10 in scoring, #17 in Off. Eff.
2008-09 with Duhon, Nate, Hughes - #4  in scoring, #17 in Off. Eff.
2007-08 with Nash                - #3  in scoring, #2  in Off. Eff.
2006-07 with Nash                - #1  in scoring, #1  in Off. Eff.
2005-06 with Nash                - #1  in scoring, #2  in Off. Eff.
2004-05 with Nash                - #1  in scoring, #1  in Off. Eff.

Trend shows PG is very key in success of the offense, tho not the only issue, but you can see the Pattern.

You are so into numbers, previous efficiencies ... You make nice arguments which is all good if you are on a high school debating team where you need to back everything with numbers, statistics etc.

We don't need numbers. He got screwed. Dolan is an ass. He really never had a legit chance with Dolan's notorious revolving door. All true and Life sux.

But, like in any coporate environment, if your team is failing again and again. You can't say "you laid off my employees" "we need new computers" ... "it's not my fault". He could have a sh1tty director/VP. No one cares. You need to produce with what you have even if you were not put in the proper position to succeed or even if you feel you are being sabatoged.

Team continuously loses? You get fired. If you really got screwed - it really sux but those are the breaks. If your owner is screwing you, you can always say "I cannot work for this guy cause he's making me look bad"

Believe me, if we could fire the owner, we would. WE CAN'T. And, maybe the next coach fails because we have the same OWNER-DICK - maybe, maybe not.

Nobody gets to stay in NY and continuously lose. This is not Minnesota.

Take the Minny Twins (or alike), should their manager be granted a lifetime contract because they spend 45 million for their roster and the Super Teams have a payroll > 200 million? Nobody cares why this is happening to you - they just want to win and if you are the leader and you are not winning, its your time to go.

Ross Perot tried to shove his wonderful statistics down our throats but people tune that stuff out. Its not always about the numbers - its like poker, sometimes you go with your gut.

And if the president is on watch during a horrible economy, they take the blame though there can be/are many excuses that will prove that it is not their fault. America don't care - play the hand that you are dealt and deal with it. Not everyone gets a dream team or even a good team. Heck, how often does a coach lose their starting QB and have a 9th stringer for the season and still get fired? Ahem ... Indianapolis? Is that not equivelent to not have a PG? A QB is important too, no?

Sometimes you are just unlucky. This was Bobby Valentines issue for many years with Joe Torre. He was dealt the Mets and Torre got the Yankees. Whadayagonnado??

You probably will not respond to this because you don't believe in this line of thinking - and I can respect that as I respect your opinion.