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Fact: This team is garbage!
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misterearl
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1/13/2012  11:01 AM
You lost me when you insulted Donnie Walsh jrodmc.

"I love Donnie Walsh, but isn't he dead already?"

Not cold jrodmc. Disrespectful and callous.

If you don't learn from the past, you are destined to repeat the same mistakes.

once a knick always a knick
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misterearl
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1/13/2012  11:03 AM    LAST EDITED: 1/13/2012  11:05 AM
GustavBahler wrote:I was much more optimistic when the season started but the sad fact is that a hobbled Baron Davis is about all that's standing between the Knicks and an early exit from the playoffs.

Fields doesn't have the gunslinger mentality or the shooting touch to be a starting SG. I thought he could make up for it with the intangibles he contributes but there isn't enough of that anymore to justify a starting job.

Shumpert has the gunslinger mentality but he's playing out of position and at times doesn't know when to stop shooting. Getting a green light to shoot isn't a green light to pass up open teammates and jack up one bad shot after another. I know he's a rookie but last night's performance was a ****ing disgrace by Shumpert, and D'Antoni for not benching him. Saying 'oops my bad" after the fact isn't good enough. Not repeating that kind of selfish play will be.

Unless Baron Davis can get Stat and Melo to work better when they're on the floor (at the same time) by the end of the season, then trades should be explored for Stat. We have no post game and Chandler needs to have a PG draw his defender away from him to score in the paint.

Part of the lack of a post game is by design but it doesn't matter because the Knicks will likely need a post player next season. I'm guessing that Steve Nash coming to NY is all that's going to save D'Antoni's job if the Knicks don't go deep in the playoffs and right now I don't see that happening. Hope I'm wrong.

In the meantime I think Bibby should get more minutes unless he's hurting. He seems to get teammates to do a better job of passing the ball when he is on the floor. I know Bibby has his liabilities but I'd rather he brought up the ball and moved the ball around instead of Shumpert or Douglas, he's better at it. I would also try to find some minutes for Novak. He's making good use of what little minutes he's getting on both ends of the floor.

Excellent analysis. Thank you GustavBahler. Watching the score is less important than watching carefully HOW this squad is playing.

So far, it is Bob McAdoo and Spencer Haywood part 2.

Forget the wins and losses.

once a knick always a knick
nykshaknbake
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1/13/2012  11:06 AM
Agree but the Griz are a pretty good team.

MS wrote:It’s about time some of you guys face facts and stop complaining about all the fair coverage this team gets. At the end of the day the Knicks suck; and are the biggest disappointment in the entire NBA. They have played the easiest schedule in the entire league and are barely above .500. Everything is an apology, they haven’t been together, they need time to mess and more embarrassing our team isn’t whole yet (yes Baron Davis is the key to our success). Christ what happens if he signed elsewhere.

If you trade your entire team for a player they need to be a superstar. That’s why you trade for a center that puts up 45pts 23rbs and is a defensive force. Not a guy that stunts team basketball and has to issue a vendetta that he is “going to play defense” because he is sick of a team that made Boris Diaw look like an all NBA performer (Btw 0pts again last night).

It’s not early fellas. Every team is playing under the same conditions, with injuries. You have two superstars you don’t lose to the Bobcats, Raptors, Warriors, Grizzles and go to the final seconds vs Washington. None of those teams are making the playoffs. I mean the Sixers play great team ball, but when it’s a big win to beat a team that is going to be the 6 seed in your own building we are really lowering the bar.

Shumpert not getting love, Barkley is too hard on us, Chad Ford and Hollinger don’t like us. The Knicks are a poorly constructed team, that’s going to half ass it consistently, not show up, talk tough and then tell you they have no idea why they didn’t play hard out of the gates.

This isn't even debatable

Uptown
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1/13/2012  11:07 AM
So basically, this is yet another thread/poster that hated the trade for Melo?! Why wait until we lose to Memphis? Where was this post when we beat Philly? Where was this thread when we beat Boston? Instead of creating another thread, why not just re-up one of the hundreds of threads created toward the end of last year that bitched and complained that we traded a bunch of nice complimentary pieces?
Uptown
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1/13/2012  11:09 AM
fishmike wrote:
raven wrote:
MS wrote:It’s about time some of you guys face facts and stop complaining about all the fair coverage this team gets. At the end of the day the Knicks suck; and are the biggest disappointment in the entire NBA. They have played the easiest schedule in the entire league and are barely above .500. Everything is an apology, they haven’t been together, they need time to mess and more embarrassing our team isn’t whole yet (yes Baron Davis is the key to our success). Christ what happens if he signed elsewhere.

If you trade your entire team for a player they need to be a superstar. That’s why you trade for a center that puts up 45pts 23rbs and is a defensive force. Not a guy that stunts team basketball and has to issue a vendetta that he is “going to play defense” because he is sick of a team that made Boris Diaw look like an all NBA performer (Btw 0pts again last night).

It’s not early fellas. Every team is playing under the same conditions, with injuries. You have two superstars you don’t lose to the Bobcats, Raptors, Warriors, Grizzles and go to the final seconds vs Washington. None of those teams are making the playoffs. I mean the Sixers play great team ball, but when it’s a big win to beat a team that is going to be the 6 seed in your own building we are really lowering the bar.

Shumpert not getting love, Barkley is too hard on us, Chad Ford and Hollinger don’t like us. The Knicks are a poorly constructed team, that’s going to half ass it consistently, not show up, talk tough and then tell you they have no idea why they didn’t play hard out of the gates.

This isn't even debatable

In case you haven't noticed, people around here don't want to debate anymore.

There is a few simple truth that you have to agree with if you want to be a true fan:

1- We are contenders


2- Melo is a superstar and the trade we did last year was the best thing we had to do

3- The coach sucks, he'S the reason Melo doesn't look interested all the time, Amare doesn't have any fundamentals, Chandler has no post moves after 10 years in the league, Shumpert chucked last night, Douglas can't play the point, Davis has a bad back, Fields plays like the second round pick he is, etc.

4- We did not overpay for an unidimensional center with no offensive game whatsoever that only had one good playoff run in his whole career

5- Shumpert is ROY after 3 games and is the best rookie drafted by the Knicks over the last 10 years or so.

Stick to this, and everything should be fine.


Fact is the few teams we have beaten were:
- bad
- shorthanded
- tired (lol @ the guy saying the win against the sixers was legit although we were fresh and they had played 3 games in 3 nights)

My belief: Walsh had a vision and played long term, and Dolan made us go backward again.

This team is garbage, has no future, no cap space, no plan, no identity.

But since I'm not a true fan, who cares about what I think?

your wrong. I would love to debate.

What in this thread is up for debate? Did MS make a single intellegent remark. He just bitched and moaned Nobody cares about that kind post.

THIS THREAD IS GARBAGE, and thanks to these kinds of repeat daily threads this forum is becoming garbage also.

MS... what should the Knicks do? Who should they target? What adjustments need to happen? Oh wait... thats too much thought. Much easier to say they suck and its not up for debate.

My retort is simple. You suck. You mom sucks, and that ugly dog that dumps pisses on your neighbor's flowers sucks too. These things are not up for debate. Just face it.

See? These threads DO INDEED inspire good discussion!

Totally agree, Fish. Posts like these are sending this Forum spiriling down the toilet.

smackeddog
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1/13/2012  11:10 AM
These boards are becoming like a parody of themselves!

Before yesterdays game people were going on about us being a championship team, now after one loss in which we played tired, lost Melo to 2 injuries and Stat to foul trouble, we're the worst team in GASP! THE ENTIRE LEAGUE! We'll never get better! For crying out loud! One minute Shumperts the greatest rookie of all time, then after a bad game he's a chucking disaster- as though he was the first rookie in the history of the NBA to have a game where he made repeated mistakes and took too many shots.

We've played 11 games! We're not even a month into the season. GET SOME PERSPECTIVE! FFS!

GustavBahler
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1/13/2012  11:12 AM
misterearl wrote:
Excellent analysis. Thank you GustavBahler. Watching the score is less important than watching carefully HOW this squad is playing.

So far, it is Bob McAdoo and Spencer Haywood part 2.

Forget the wins and losses.

Thanks Earl, much appreciated. Great call on the McAdoo/Haywood reference. Sure looking that way.

MS
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1/13/2012  11:23 AM
What have I said that isn’t spot on?

We traded half our team for a guy that virtually is the same player, as our best player. It works in Miami because Lebron and Wade are unselfish and play exceptional defense.

Is there a difference between Carmelo Anthony and Allen Iverson?

We had to take on Balkmans contract, Fields went from promising trade chip and glue guy to having no value, Gallo and Chandler virtually duplicate Melo’s production and spaced the floor and both were unselfish, Felton was playing at a fringe all-star level and developing serious chemistry with STAT, AR and Moz were both raw, but useful projects.

Does that add up to a championship? No it doesn’t, but there is an opportunity to build with pieces and have flexibility. Right now our roster consists of a lost second year SF starting at the guard position, a combo guard that’s lost his confidence playing out of position, a jump shooting power forward how isn’t being aggressive, a journeyman past his prime point guard, a former all-star injured point guard who we are all hoping returns to his Golden State form and a defensive center whose needs a pg to get him easy buckets.

Melo is a closer I get it. He’s great when the game is on the line, but with this team the game is always going to be on the line. He needs to score 35+ to get us wins because we have no depth and balance.
If someone can explain how we get that and who do we add that’s something to talk about…

jrodmc
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1/13/2012  11:31 AM
misterearl wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
MS wrote:I just don’t see a lot of positives with this team. We took a tremendous risk trading all our assets for Carmelo. Denver has actually gotten better and they don’t even have Wilson Chandler. Were our assets stars, no, but they were learning how to play well together. Everyone is quick to bring up the fact that we weren’t going anywhere with those guys. Not right away, but as they improve you fill in the pieces.

Denver has beaten LA (on a back to back, and we've already established in other posts that beating a good team (Philly) when they're tired obviously doesn't mean sheet. Other than that, how have they gotten better? By beating Utah, Sac, and the Nyets? Are they really more than a 1st round and out in a flat division with one actual contender in it? How is that better? They were a more exciting and dangerous team back with the freak show that was Melo Birdman Chauncey and China's finest citizen, JR Smith.

Gallo's averaging 17 pts a game, Moz isn't doing shit, and Felton is about as relevant at this point in Knicks history as Chris Duhon. The trade was almost two years ago. We now have a scorer who can take over games. Did you see the jumper over Iggy the other night? Was Gallo going to do that? Really? What did we have with the previous crew? Dreams and potential? Cap space for what?

Please find something else.

jrodmc - your comments are full of downright lies. First, the Carmelo Anthony trade did NOT happen "almost two years ago" as you state. It was made on February 21, 2011. It has not been a year and the Knicks have a losing record since that date.


Right, I'm sorry part of 1 season and this season. I'm rounding up since the lockout seems to have made everything seem alot longer than it actually is.
misterearl wrote:
Mozgov is averaging 15 minutes and shooting 47 per cent from the field.

Oh yes, and averaging 3pts and 3 rebounds in that 15 minutes...that translates to maybe 8 and 8 in a full game. You also forgot to mention the lie that he has 4 times as many fouls as blocked shots. Truly someone to build a franchise around. Maybe 10 years from now. When the NBA will be all about backup centers.

misterearl wrote:Raymond Felton is averaging 7 assists per game. Would we be better with those 7 assists and his toughness? You damn skippy.

Right. 7 assists and toughness. Because obviously Shump is shaping up nicely into a 6'5" pussywillow. No upside there compared to a 7 whole assists per game.

misterearl wrote:Wilson Chandler was a "heart and soul" unselfish player who played outstanding defense against big men.

You didn't give us Wilson's stats from China. And again, that's what true championship teams are made of, right? 2nd tier small forwards who have an amazingly annoying ability to be inconsistent and can play out of position D.

jrodmc
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1/13/2012  11:37 AM
misterearl wrote:You lost me when you insulted Donnie Walsh jrodmc.

"I love Donnie Walsh, but isn't he dead already?"

Not cold jrodmc. Disrespectful and callous.

If you don't learn from the past, you are destined to repeat the same mistakes.

And if you don't let go of the past, and start moving forward, a bus will sooner or later run you over. Hello, today is here, and Donnie won't be answering anyone's calls to the front office any time soon.

I love what he did by transferring us out of the IT error, but it's over now, and we have to deal with what we have. Whining over trades that got done without Donnie's stamp of approval is really old water under a bridge no one can even see in the rear view anymore.

Just don't bring IT back.

fishmike
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1/13/2012  11:38 AM
MS wrote:What have I said that isn’t spot on?

We traded half our team for a guy that virtually is the same player, as our best player. It works in Miami because Lebron and Wade are unselfish and play exceptional defense.

Is there a difference between Carmelo Anthony and Allen Iverson?

We had to take on Balkmans contract, Fields went from promising trade chip and glue guy to having no value, Gallo and Chandler virtually duplicate Melo’s production and spaced the floor and both were unselfish, Felton was playing at a fringe all-star level and developing serious chemistry with STAT, AR and Moz were both raw, but useful projects.

Does that add up to a championship? No it doesn’t, but there is an opportunity to build with pieces and have flexibility. Right now our roster consists of a lost second year SF starting at the guard position, a combo guard that’s lost his confidence playing out of position, a jump shooting power forward how isn’t being aggressive, a journeyman past his prime point guard, a former all-star injured point guard who we are all hoping returns to his Golden State form and a defensive center whose needs a pg to get him easy buckets.

Melo is a closer I get it. He’s great when the game is on the line, but with this team the game is always going to be on the line. He needs to score 35+ to get us wins because we have no depth and balance.
If someone can explain how we get that and who do we add that’s something to talk about…

Knicks built a great frontcourt... now they need depth and guards.

We are still talking about Denver? They are 7-4, 5-1 at home and beat Mil, NJ, NO, Utah and Sac there. They have 2 quality wins (LAL who they also lost too and Dallas who was playing 2nd game of a b2b, which we have established here means its no longer a quality win)

Sorry... your still not saying anything

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
smackeddog
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1/13/2012  11:45 AM
MS wrote:What have I said that isn’t spot on?

We traded half our team for a guy that virtually is the same player, as our best player. It works in Miami because Lebron and Wade are unselfish and play exceptional defense.

Is there a difference between Carmelo Anthony and Allen Iverson?

We had to take on Balkmans contract, Fields went from promising trade chip and glue guy to having no value, Gallo and Chandler virtually duplicate Melo’s production and spaced the floor and both were unselfish, Felton was playing at a fringe all-star level and developing serious chemistry with STAT, AR and Moz were both raw, but useful projects.

Does that add up to a championship? No it doesn’t, but there is an opportunity to build with pieces and have flexibility. Right now our roster consists of a lost second year SF starting at the guard position, a combo guard that’s lost his confidence playing out of position, a jump shooting power forward how isn’t being aggressive, a journeyman past his prime point guard, a former all-star injured point guard who we are all hoping returns to his Golden State form and a defensive center whose needs a pg to get him easy buckets.

Melo is a closer I get it. He’s great when the game is on the line, but with this team the game is always going to be on the line. He needs to score 35+ to get us wins because we have no depth and balance.
If someone can explain how we get that and who do we add that’s something to talk about…

I get the frustration- i feel the same way when we put up a stinker like we did yesterday, but where I disagree with you is that you don't put any context to it. Wade and Lebron do work well together now- but do you know why that is? It's because they've played together for over 100 games! It took them all of last season to get some chemistry going. Melo and STAT have no chemistry at all, but they've hardly played together- they keep taking turns getting injured.

Do you know what Felton is shooting this season? 34.6% and 16.7% from 3pt. People complained about him for most of his stint with new york (he got off to a slow start too if you remember), until he got traded, at which point he passed into Knick folklore as the second incarnation of Magic Johnson.

I didn't like the trade either, but I wouldn't say the old team was a championship calibre team either. Do you know what we would have done if we'd kept that team? Complain and go into wild hysteria every time Gallo didn't score 20 points, or had one of his poor shooting slow starts, or declare Wilson Chandler a bust every time he went through those passive stretches. We would have killed Felton by now if he'd shot the %'s he's shooting in Portland.

It's the lack of patience, lack of context, that annoys me- it's not making excuses, it's understanding that we need a lot more time to get the best out of the group we have (we haven't even played with BD yet- can't wait until people give him 3 whole games to get on top form before the start blasting him!), it's understanding that we'll have games where we'll look good, and games where we stink; it's understanding that a player can go through slumps but get better- not every game is the end of the world, and to think we have no scope for improvement is ridiculous.

We have no depth at the moment, but lets see what happens once JJ and BD are back, and whether we can add another bench player either from China or via a small trade. Lets see how they play once BD gets back (and lets give him a fair chance to get back into playing shape once he does). And remember how early in the season it is.

Uptown
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1/13/2012  11:49 AM
MS wrote:What have I said that isn’t spot on?

We traded half our team for a guy that virtually is the same player, as our best player. It works in Miami because Lebron and Wade are unselfish and play exceptional defense.

Is there a difference between Carmelo Anthony and Allen Iverson?

We had to take on Balkmans contract, Fields went from promising trade chip and glue guy to having no value, Gallo and Chandler virtually duplicate Melo’s production and spaced the floor and both were unselfish, Felton was playing at a fringe all-star level and developing serious chemistry with STAT, AR and Moz were both raw, but useful projects.

Does that add up to a championship? No it doesn’t, but there is an opportunity to build with pieces and have flexibility. Right now our roster consists of a lost second year SF starting at the guard position, a combo guard that’s lost his confidence playing out of position, a jump shooting power forward how isn’t being aggressive, a journeyman past his prime point guard, a former all-star injured point guard who we are all hoping returns to his Golden State form and a defensive center whose needs a pg to get him easy buckets.

Melo is a closer I get it. He’s great when the game is on the line, but with this team the game is always going to be on the line. He needs to score 35+ to get us wins because we have no depth and balance.
If someone can explain how we get that and who do we add that’s something to talk about…

We've discussed this ad naseum all of last season in the s**t load of threads that bombarded this forum immediatley following the trade and thereafter....Frankly, its getting boring. Actually, its annoying. This is the team! MS, stop banging your head against the wall, open your eyes and see the new door that has opened. Walk through, and lets try to fix the new room/the current room as opposed to complaing about the old one that no longer exists.

Now, this current team is in better shape than the old one for the simple fact that we have the core in place, now we need the complimentary pieces to surround them. YES, we are thin on the bench this year, but our window doesn't close at seasons end. We'll get better as we add pieces that are alot easier to acquire. For 10 years, we added complimentary piece, after complimentary piece and tried to turn them into core players but to no avail. Now, after 10 years of chasing, we have legit core players here. Now all we need to do is go out get pieces like we did before. Be patient, it'll come....

misterearl
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1/13/2012  11:50 AM    LAST EDITED: 1/13/2012  11:52 AM
Team Spirit

"And again, that's what true championship teams are made of, right? 2nd tier small forwards who have an amazingly annoying ability to be inconsistent and can play out of position D."

Championship teams are composed of five guys who play as one. Want to go three deep for the condensed season?...

Felton
Fields
Gallinari
Stoudemire
Tyson Chandler (all starters averaging in double figures)

Bibby
Shumpert
Wilson Chandler
Jared Jeffries
Timofey Mozgov (quality depth and defense to hold leads)

Jeremy Lin
Toney Douglas
Derrick Brown
Shawne Williams
Josh Harrellson (did someone say gar-BAGE time?)


That is a sweet 15 (SFX: alarm clock rings)

Mrs Earl: "Dammit Earl, take out the trash"

once a knick always a knick
crzymdups
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1/13/2012  11:55 AM
earl, i thought you hated gallo because he wasn't wilson.
¿ △ ?
smackeddog
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1/13/2012  11:56 AM
misterearl wrote:Team Spirit

"And again, that's what true championship teams are made of, right? 2nd tier small forwards who have an amazingly annoying ability to be inconsistent and can play out of position D."

Championship teams are composed of five guys who play as one. Want to go three deep for the condensed season?...

Felton
Fields
Gallinari
Stoudemire
Tyson Chandler (all starters averaging in double figures)

Please tell me how you would have signed Tyson Chandler in the offseason?

MS
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1/13/2012  11:58 AM
The frontcourt is good on paper, but it doesn't really mesh.

How do we get those guards? Do you trade Doublas/Fields for somoene like OJ Mayo? Amare for Scola, Martin, Buddinger?

misterearl
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1/13/2012  12:01 PM
crzymdups wrote:earl, i thought you hated gallo because he wasn't wilson.

Never showed Gallo anything but love. You must have The Answer Man confused with someone else.

once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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1/13/2012  12:03 PM
The Answer Man Knows Layups


Q. smackeddog - Please tell me how you would have signed Tyson Chandler in the offseason?

A. I send Paulie Walnuts to Dallas.

With the lure of Stoudemire and the big city, Tyson gets Eddy Curry's chedda.

once a knick always a knick
RonRon
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1/13/2012  12:05 PM
misterearl wrote:Team Spirit

"And again, that's what true championship teams are made of, right? 2nd tier small forwards who have an amazingly annoying ability to be inconsistent and can play out of position D."

Championship teams are composed of five guys who play as one. Want to go three deep for the condensed season?...

Felton
Fields
Gallinari
Stoudemire
Tyson Chandler (all starters averaging in double figures)

Bibby
Shumpert
Wilson Chandler
Jared Jeffries
Timofey Mozgov (quality depth and defense to hold leads)

Jeremy Lin
Toney Douglas
Derrick Brown
Shawne Williams
Josh Harrellson (did someone say gar-BAGE time?)


That is a sweet 15 (SFX: alarm clock rings)

Mrs Earl: "Dammit Earl, take out the trash"

I really believe Tyson Chandler added to our old squad was exactly what we needed.
You are also missing Anthony Randolph, not sure if Dantoni would play him but I think he can help...
We finally developed team chemistry and plays SSOL. The system needs many unique players to compliment the system.
Players that have 2 way skills, athleticism, speed, good ball movement, PG to initiate PnR, and high basketball IQ.

People are saying STAT being offered in trades is disrespectful because he started it back in New York....blah blah blah
you have to give credit to all these guys that were on the team, they deserve credit as well.
I think they are all a little sour from the trade, they were all rookies at one point and totally changed the direction of the franchise after being HORRIBLE.
Then they get traded for a 6 for 1 deal, and people say "we HAVE TO DO IT, MELO is better than all of them combined"....

Fact: This team is garbage!

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