holfresh wrote:

airchibundo507 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

airchibundo507 wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:Before yesterday, I would not even entertain the notion of trading him....but...

Right now with the current state of the team....I would knock on Orlando's door and see if they would take Amare, TD and Fields. Orlando claimed that they want veteran players. We can put the new age Twin Towers.

Then maybe we can sign The Mayor back in March.

This means for the meantime, we would have to roll with Bibby and Lin at PG. Can't be any worse than TD. We will actually have 2 players to protect the paint. Nobody is going to penetrate with that front line.

the roster would literally have three NBA players surrounded by dleaguers. Chandler and Howard at the same time? awkward as hell. no spacing on the floor.

how you can call bibby and Lin comparable to TD is beyond me. Bibby close to single handedly lost yesterday's game. He can't make a damn three and can't play defense. Absolutely useless.

this... (good post) the problem now is depth and reps. This group needs time together and not having Shump really hurts because there is NOTHING after Douglas.
Yesterday with Douglas +3
Yesterday with Bibby -18

Do we really need to debate what the problem was yesterday?

Not to defend Bibby who is horrible in his own right...Plus and minus simply does not indicate anything about the game...Jorts who was horrible yesterday(+5)...Fields horrible (+13)...Carmelo the only reason we were in the game (-2)..Yet people here go to these stats like they have some meaning...

+/- is a decent measure if you watched the game and know how to interpret the data. Jorts played all his minutes with the starters. Fields wasn't horrible. He couldn't make an outside shot to save his life, but his defense was good at times. Early in the fourth with Melo onthe bench, Douglas and Fields went to work.

Carmelo had a lot of minutes with the bench players to stop the bleeding. But from my observation Bibby and Harrelson were easily our two worst players.

Feilds was 1-7...He was (+13)...How am I to interpret that?..Good D?...Bibby played 15 min and was (-18)..He wasn't the reason the Knicks got down big...How are I to interpret that?..Jorts played 33 mins (+5)...You basically have to see the game to know actually what happened...I cannot look at a boxscore and know anything about the game based of these numbers...

Theres more to the game than just shooting. Fields led the team in assists and had a couple big hustle plays in the second half. +/- tells you the Knicks made their huge second half comeback with fields in the game, and that he wasn't a major cause of our meltdown in the second quarter.

Again, you have to watch the game to be able to use +/- to corroborate beliefs.

Jorts played with our starting unit, thus his +/- was inflated

For Bibby to rack up a -18 +/- in only 15 minutes of play should tell you something.

holfresh wrote:

airchibundo507 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

airchibundo507 wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:Before yesterday, I would not even entertain the notion of trading him....but...

Right now with the current state of the team....I would knock on Orlando's door and see if they would take Amare, TD and Fields. Orlando claimed that they want veteran players. We can put the new age Twin Towers.

Then maybe we can sign The Mayor back in March.

This means for the meantime, we would have to roll with Bibby and Lin at PG. Can't be any worse than TD. We will actually have 2 players to protect the paint. Nobody is going to penetrate with that front line.

the roster would literally have three NBA players surrounded by dleaguers. Chandler and Howard at the same time? awkward as hell. no spacing on the floor.

how you can call bibby and Lin comparable to TD is beyond me. Bibby close to single handedly lost yesterday's game. He can't make a damn three and can't play defense. Absolutely useless.

this... (good post) the problem now is depth and reps. This group needs time together and not having Shump really hurts because there is NOTHING after Douglas.
Yesterday with Douglas +3
Yesterday with Bibby -18

Do we really need to debate what the problem was yesterday?

Not to defend Bibby who is horrible in his own right...Plus and minus simply does not indicate anything about the game...Jorts who was horrible yesterday(+5)...Fields horrible (+13)...Carmelo the only reason we were in the game (-2)..Yet people here go to these stats like they have some meaning...

+/- is a decent measure if you watched the game and know how to interpret the data. Jorts played all his minutes with the starters. Fields wasn't horrible. He couldn't make an outside shot to save his life, but his defense was good at times. Early in the fourth with Melo onthe bench, Douglas and Fields went to work.

Carmelo had a lot of minutes with the bench players to stop the bleeding. But from my observation Bibby and Harrelson were easily our two worst players.

Feilds was 1-7...He was (+13)...How am I to interpret that?..Good D?...Bibby played 15 min and was (-18)..He wasn't the reason the Knicks got down big...How are I to interpret that?..Jorts played 33 mins (+5)...You basically have to see the game to know actually what happened...I cannot look at a boxscore and know anything about the game based of these numbers...

airchibundo507 wrote:it's not like +/- is arbitrarily derived. the stat isn't going to give Melo the lowest +/- for that game or Bibby the highest. it can be analyzed and anomalies rationalized if you watch the game. for fields to have the highest obviously means he wasn't as much a liability as you think he was. he couldn't make a shot, yet he contributed in other aspects

The problem with this stat is that it has different meaning for different players...Carmelo has (-2) one because of the time spent on the court...Jorts (+5) because he started..etc...There is nothing reliable or consistent about this number...

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

airchibundo507 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

airchibundo507 wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:Before yesterday, I would not even entertain the notion of trading him....but...

Right now with the current state of the team....I would knock on Orlando's door and see if they would take Amare, TD and Fields. Orlando claimed that they want veteran players. We can put the new age Twin Towers.

Then maybe we can sign The Mayor back in March.

This means for the meantime, we would have to roll with Bibby and Lin at PG. Can't be any worse than TD. We will actually have 2 players to protect the paint. Nobody is going to penetrate with that front line.

the roster would literally have three NBA players surrounded by dleaguers. Chandler and Howard at the same time? awkward as hell. no spacing on the floor.

how you can call bibby and Lin comparable to TD is beyond me. Bibby close to single handedly lost yesterday's game. He can't make a damn three and can't play defense. Absolutely useless.

this... (good post) the problem now is depth and reps. This group needs time together and not having Shump really hurts because there is NOTHING after Douglas.
Yesterday with Douglas +3
Yesterday with Bibby -18

Do we really need to debate what the problem was yesterday?

Not to defend Bibby who is horrible in his own right...Plus and minus simply does not indicate anything about the game...Jorts who was horrible yesterday(+5)...Fields horrible (+13)...Carmelo the only reason we were in the game (-2)..Yet people here go to these stats like they have some meaning...

+/- is a decent measure if you watched the game and know how to interpret the data. Jorts played all his minutes with the starters. Fields wasn't horrible. He couldn't make an outside shot to save his life, but his defense was good at times. Early in the fourth with Melo onthe bench, Douglas and Fields went to work.

Carmelo had a lot of minutes with the bench players to stop the bleeding. But from my observation Bibby and Harrelson were easily our two worst players.

Feilds was 1-7...He was (+13)...How am I to interpret that?..Good D?...Bibby played 15 min and was (-18)..He wasn't the reason the Knicks got down big...How are I to interpret that?..Jorts played 33 mins (+5)...You basically have to see the game to know actually what happened...I cannot look at a boxscore and know anything about the game based of these numbers...

If the +/- score for a player confirms what a poster already believes, it is useful. If not, it is useless.

LOL, beat me to it.

raven wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Amare has no trade value.

you cannot be serious

He may have 100 millions uninsured reasons to be serious.

You realize was second in MVP voting last year? Any team that still has the amnbesty can absolutely take a risk on him. It's noyt like he can't play, this is Amar'e Freaking Stoudamire

loweyecue wrote:

raven wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Amare has no trade value.

you cannot be serious

He may have 100 millions uninsured reasons to be serious.

You realize was second in MVP voting last year? Any team that still has the amnbesty can absolutely take a risk on him. It's noyt like he can't play, this is Amar'e Freaking Stoudamire

Yop, Amare freaking microsurgeried-one-eyed-stiffed-back Stoudemire.

Apart from us, nobody wanted to give him that contract. You should realize that.

And being a regular season MVP and breaking down come the playoffs is like being a cowboy good at shooting cans but sucking in duels: useless.

martin wrote:

raven wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

raven wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Amare has no trade value.

you cannot be serious

He may have 100 millions uninsured reasons to be serious.

You realize was second in MVP voting last year? Any team that still has the amnbesty can absolutely take a risk on him. It's noyt like he can't play, this is Amar'e Freaking Stoudamire

Yop, Amare freaking microsurgeried-one-eyed-stiffed-back Stoudemire.

Apart from us, nobody wanted to give him that contract. You should realize that.

And being a regular season MVP and breaking down come the playoffs is like being a cowboy good at shooting cans but sucking in duels: useless.

how did you come to that conclusion?

By the fact that noone else did and that the move was labeled as foolish, including by most of people here, when it happened.

Even the suns who were the most logical destination for him since they still had a good iof not great team didn't, and preferred see him leave for nothing.

That also says a lot.

Please don't act suprised as if what I said was based on nothing, cause it's not.

Bonn1997 wrote:

raven wrote:

martin wrote:

raven wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

raven wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Amare has no trade value.

you cannot be serious

He may have 100 millions uninsured reasons to be serious.

You realize was second in MVP voting last year? Any team that still has the amnbesty can absolutely take a risk on him. It's noyt like he can't play, this is Amar'e Freaking Stoudamire

Yop, Amare freaking microsurgeried-one-eyed-stiffed-back Stoudemire.

Apart from us, nobody wanted to give him that contract. You should realize that.

And being a regular season MVP and breaking down come the playoffs is like being a cowboy good at shooting cans but sucking in duels: useless.

how did you come to that conclusion?

By the fact that noone else did and that the move was labeled as foolish, including by most of people here, when it happened.

Even the suns who were the most logical destination for him since they still had a good iof not great team didn't, and preferred see him leave for nothing.

That also says a lot.

Please don't act suprised as if what I said was based on nothing, cause it's not.

Yeah, there were no reports of teams offering him full max contracts. That's all we can go by.

But I admit we didn't have any choice at that time but to pay him that money. We needed the 1st superstar and I was really sure at that time that Lebron would not pass up the opportunity to play with a finisher like Amare for a great coach in NYC.

I was badly mistaken as history showed us :(.

And at the same time I was pleasanlty surprised by the leadership showed by Amare who I thought was more of a problem guy than anything else. So all in all, we didn't make a bad deal and we had to overpay for him.

Now overpaying for Melo is another story, and I still think that was a bad idea business wise because I don't think we can take Miami on a 7 games series, sadly.

loweyecue wrote:

raven wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

raven wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Amare has no trade value.

you cannot be serious

He may have 100 millions uninsured reasons to be serious.

You realize was second in MVP voting last year? Any team that still has the amnbesty can absolutely take a risk on him. It's noyt like he can't play, this is Amar'e Freaking Stoudamire

Yop, Amare freaking microsurgeried-one-eyed-stiffed-back Stoudemire.

Apart from us, nobody wanted to give him that contract. You should realize that.

And being a regular season MVP and breaking down come the playoffs is like being a cowboy good at shooting cans but sucking in duels: useless.

Everybody knows he is an injury risk and has a large contract. Throwing a bunch of adjectives to amplify that doesn't make a point. What I said was teams with amnesty clause available to them may take a risk on him thru trade. Amare still has the skills to dominate on offense. I don't think we can trade him for Dwight but to suggest he has no value is shortsighted. Bynum has had far more I jury issues yet he is constantly part of trade discussions for Dwight.

Bonn1997 wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

raven wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

raven wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Amare has no trade value.

you cannot be serious

He may have 100 millions uninsured reasons to be serious.

You realize was second in MVP voting last year? Any team that still has the amnbesty can absolutely take a risk on him. It's noyt like he can't play, this is Amar'e Freaking Stoudamire

Yop, Amare freaking microsurgeried-one-eyed-stiffed-back Stoudemire.

Apart from us, nobody wanted to give him that contract. You should realize that.

And being a regular season MVP and breaking down come the playoffs is like being a cowboy good at shooting cans but sucking in duels: useless.

Everybody knows he is an injury risk and has a large contract. Throwing a bunch of adjectives to amplify that doesn't make a point. What I said was teams with amnesty clause available to them may take a risk on him thru trade. Amare still has the skills to dominate on offense. I don't think we can trade him for Dwight but to suggest he has no value is shortsighted. Bynum has had far more I jury issues yet he is constantly part of trade discussions for Dwight.

Even if you have an amnesty clause, you still owe the player the money. With the way he finished last season and started this season, no team would take that risk.

I don't buy that at all. He's coming off a season where he was the first-half MVP. He's having to adjust to two major pieces. Plus, he's under contract. I am willing to bet that one of these teams that needs to meet the NBA salary cap minimum, that wouldn't mind a new stadium, wouldn't mind Amar'e

By the way, where's you empirical evidence? These are pretty bold claims

eViL wrote:i think the amnesty only applied to players that were under contract and on a team's roster before the new CBA.

regardless, to say Amare has no value around the league is asinine.

both parts of this post are 100% on the money.