nixluva wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

nixluva wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:ThisSystem(square peg) + ThisRoster(round hole) + = TheBestSeasonEver!(denial)

How about giving some proof that the "system" is a Square peg to this roster's round hole? The only thing that is missing is a PG to run the PnR and drive and kick. The team is full of spot up shooters that don't create their own shots!!! No post up bigs except for Melo. So with no penetrating PG teams just clog the paint and shift to Melo and that's enough to shut down the offense.

Who is making all these passes to cutters if we change the offense right now? They don't consistently move the ball from qtr to qtr cuz none of these guys are good passers. You can't expect them to improve that much. The answer to the problem on offense is better talent in the backcourt!!! Shump, B Diddy and maybe Lin if he gets coached up.

Knicks Roster
 2011-12 Roster							
NUM	PLAYER	POS	HT	WT	DOB	        FROM    YEARS
7	Melo	 F	 6-8	230	 5/29/84	Cuse	8
32	Balk	 F	 6-8	225	 7/14/84	S Car	5
20	Bibby	 G	 6-2	195	 5/13/78	Zona	13
6	Tyson	 C	 7-1	240	 10/2/82	HS	10
85	Bdiddy	 G	 6-3	212	 4/13/79	UCLA	12
23	TD	 G	 6-2	185	 3/16/86	FSU	2
2	Fields	 G	 6-7	215	 6/27/88	Stan	1
55	Jorts	 C	 6-10	275	 2/12/89	Ken	 R
9	Effries	 F	 6-11	240	 11/25/81	Indiana	9
44	JJ3	 C	 7-0	240	 9/29/86	Tulsa	 R
17	Lin	 G	 6-3	200	 8/23/88	Harvard	1
16	Novak	 F	 6-10	240	 6/13/83	Marq	5
21	Shump	 G	 6-5	220	 6/26/190	Ga Tech	 R
1	Amear	 F-C	 6-11	260	 11/16/82	HS	9
5	Walker	 G-F	 6-6	235	 10/9/87	KSU	3

That was just STUPID!!! How about you just stop posting in this thread if you're going to do dumb things like this? We all know the roster. Could you have given specifics as to why the team was top 5 offense in the league last year and now all of a sudden these players don't fit the system?

The only clear difference is NO PG!!!

misterearl wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:Free Jeremy Lin!

+ 5

To free Jeremy Lin, you're gonna have to get rid of Bibby. Lin will continue to get garbage minutes. Hopefully, when Shump gets back we'll have a bit more backcourt strength. Depending on the condition and learning curve of of Baron Davis we will show a steady climb towards being a top ten team. If Baron can solve the Amar'e conundrum, we can really make some noise!

2011-2012: Knicks shoot 30 3's per
2010-2011: Knicks shoot 30 s's per 2nd only to the Magic (league average around 22 3's per)
2009-2010: Knicks shoot 31 3's per 2nd only to the Magic (league average aroung 22 3's per)
2008-2009: Knicks shoot 32 3's per 2nd again the the Magic (league average around 22 3's per)

Please dont argue that this offense doesn't revolve around shooting 3's. Yes, the pick and roll is apart of the offense but the 3's are equally if not more important. And dont blame the pg's because we've had a ton since MDA's been here. Douglas, Felton, Marbury, Nate, Billups, etc. The common denominator is the coach. This is his baby!!!!

BTW, you clear the paint when you have dribble-drive players like Lebron, Wade, etc. We dont have any dribble drive players. Melo vcan do it but he bounces it mainly to get into rhythm to shoot it. You dont open up the paint to have your 6'10 pf's (Jorts and Stat) standing behind the 3 pt line shooting 3's. You dive into the paint, show, then sprint out and screen-away for the next player to pop in for an easy basket. If I'm playing defense against an athletic freak like Stat in a game and I see him standing 20 feet away from the basket, I'm thanking my lucky stars..

OjilEye wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:Ok, so Lin is not gonna be playing until after Davis comes back. Can we meanwhile find a PG in minor league or Europe with a single skill -running the PnR? Is that so rare ?

Wait, shouldn't it be the other way around?

Let's utilize Lin to the best of his capability until B. Davis and Shump are healthy.

It absolutely should. However Link only plays in blowouts. We could not blow out the kings, in a game after which Cousins demanded a trade. And we are just good enough to not be blown out badly. So only Davis can make us blow out other teams enough for Lin to play

Uptown wrote:Nix, we were about to have a conversation about this in the other thread, not sure why you felt the need to create a new thread out of it. Anyway, this was my rsponse to you in the other thread....
Since MDA has been here we have been second in the league every year in three point attempts:

2011-2012: Knicks shoot 30 3's per
2010-2011: Knicks shoot 30 s's per 2nd only to the Magic (league average around 22 3's per)
2009-2010: Knicks shoot 31 3's per 2nd only to the Magic (league average aroung 22 3's per)
2008-2009: Knicks shoot 32 3's per 2nd again the the Magic (league average around 22 3's per)

Please dont argue that this offense doesn't revolve around shooting 3's. Yes, the pick and roll is apart of the offense but the 3's are equally if not more important. And dont blame the pg's because we've had a ton since MDA's been here. Douglas, Felton, Marbury, Nate, Billups, etc. The common denominator is the coach. This is his baby!!!!

BTW, you clear the paint when you have dribble-drive players like Lebron, Wade, etc. We dont have any dribble drive players. Melo vcan do it but he bounces it mainly to get into rhythm to shoot it. You dont open up the paint to have your 6'10 pf's (Jorts and Stat) standing behind the 3 pt line shooting 3's. You dive into the paint, show, then sprint out and screen-away for the next player to pop in for an easy basket. If I'm playing defense against an athletic freak like Stat in a game and I see him standing 20 feet away from the basket, I'm thanking my lucky stars..

Amare stands outside the 3 point line mainly because it's the only way he can get his hands on the ball. He can stand in the paint all day and not get the ball. Every pass will be deflected or stolen. And once he has the ball outside the three point arc he doesn't have the skillto put it on the floor and take it to the hoop. So he does his awkward 1 on 1 move usually resulting in a TO or he chucks up a 3 pointer. Yes those threes add up and produce the numbers you are quoting. If we had the personnel and the skills to get the ball into the paint consistently the percentage of 3s as part of our total offense will go down.

Looking at total number of threes taken by each team is misleading unless you account for number of possessions.

Uptown wrote:

MarburyAnd1Crossover wrote:Uptown, what other coach in the NBA, or even maybe the world, has coached 40 different players in three years with the same team? And on top of all the roster turnover, the Knicks put up a winning record last season.

Every coach has his faults, but the positives far outweigh the negatives for D'Antoni.

The roster has changed but the philosophy has remained the same regardless of what personnel he has or whether they fit the philosophy/system or not. Not disputing the fact that he's had a lot of roster turnover. I'm disputing his offensive philosophy and the fact that he is still promoting the same and perimeter game when he currently has an imposing front line.

As was said earlier, Riles adapted to the Knicks roster he inherited. The show-time ball wasn't going to work with Oak and Ewing. They were best suited for bully ball. Our 6'10 Amare shouldn't be standing out by the 3 point line. 6'10 Amare had no business adding a 3 point shot to his game when he still doesn't have a legit post move. The resoning behind working on the 3 I'm sure cohensides with the system he is playing in which is a** backwards for him, Melo and Chanlder. Why would you want an athletic freak jacking up 3's?

We've been second in the league in 3 pt attempts every year since he's been here. The Magic have been first. Though I disagree with the perimeter/3pt philosphy at least a case can be made for the Magic considering they have 2-3 of the best perimeter shooters in the league in Hedo, JJ and Ryan Anderson. Who do we have thats a legit 3 pt shooter? No one. So, is it too much to ask for MDA to design plays that will lead to his front line players having their heads under the basket as opposed to 23 foot from it?

lets not forget how wide open they are due to the double and triple teams in post on DHoward. We don't have that so we do not have an excuse to be at the top of this list.

crzymdups wrote:

Nalod wrote:Riles adapted around Ewing. Everyone else was replaced.

who have we kept since d'antoni got here? no one. there's no one left from the pre-d'antoni days, unless we count balkman. maybe he's adapted to balkman?

Thats right, the players are very capable of adapting to the coach.

Isn't that the point? Bring in players who want (they say they do at least) to play for MDA and the Offense he has.

Last season there was not time to get melo and Chauns to adapt, so the slowed it down.

This season Amare played 3 games and I'd say there hwas not been enough time to get the system down. Took 13 games last year.

Team was doing well until all the rumers.

So all in all what is all the fuss about MDA sucking?

Anyone really expect this team to go out the gate and win 7 in a row?

Last year fans were screaming what a bad signing Raymond was.

Riles adapted to Ewing who was never on board with any type of running game that did not include him.

Riles is more acomplished than MDA. He had a dream team in LA and a good tandem in Miami to work with.

Things aren't at such a desperate state that we have to question MDA's offensive coaching ability. I mean come on! This is just typical bashing by guys who never liked his offensive style to begin with, even tho it's been very effective.

We really haven't been able to run SSOL since MDA has gotten here. We never really had a roster built to run like that and certainly never had a PG that could push the tempo and also run PnR on a high level. Felton was the closest we ever came and he wasn't even in top shape last year. Felton was visibly overweight last year. Still he became effective in this offense.

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:The concern has NEVER been the offense! Why all of a sudden are there so many people looking to make this about a lack of ability to coach offense? Teams was top 5-10 in most offensive categories last year with Felton as the PG. Now we don't even have someone at his level. Also as Nalod pointed out it took a while for all the new guys to meld last year and I would suspect that things would be no different this year. Not to mention the short camp and preseason and early injuries which have been unfortunate.

Things aren't at such a desperate state that we have to question MDA's offensive coaching ability. I mean come on! This is just typical bashing by guys who never liked his offensive style to begin with, even tho it's been very effective.

We really haven't been able to run SSOL since MDA has gotten here. We never really had a roster built to run like that and certainly never had a PG that could push the tempo and also run PnR on a high level. Felton was the closest we ever came and he wasn't even in top shape last year. Felton was visibly overweight last year. Still he became effective in this offense.

Ok With that thought in mind, what now???

Well part of it was to work Melo into being more of a Point forward which they've been doing. He's still getting the hang of it. However, this won't work if you don't have effective options elsewhere on the floor. You still need good players around him, or else they just crowd his side of the floor whenever he gets the ball and there's no room to operate.

Melo has to continue to improve his ability to make defenses pay for doubling him, but what teams are doing is just slanting their defense towards his side of the floor making it harder for him to operate with room. He'll eventually get better at playing Point forward and so will his teammates in playing off what he does. It takes time to do something new like this when a player has never really done it.

He's made some very good passes but Fields and TD etc. haven't been hitting at a high % so far this season. Eventually they will. The rhythm and chemistry isn't all there yet.

The next logical step is getting B Diddy healthy.

Core of Ewing and Oak up front in a time and place where showtime was not happeing and smash mouth Detroit ball was all the rage.

Different time and era. Riles did a great job with a talented core. When Riles left, the hand checking rules came into play.

If you gonna go out and get Amare and run, thats one thing. If you gonna then gut the team and get Melo and think putting the two together will work thats is the question at hand.

If you take a grayhound like Amare and now bring in melo and want to slow the whole show down is that the best thing?

YOu know, It might not be and perhaps not having an uptempo system in place is not the best thing.

BUt I don't see Amare being successful in anything but an uptempo one. Thats what he did in PHX and was doing well last year.

Seems like panic every game indictment is the reaction around here.

What to do now? Keep working on it!