Uptown wrote:

holfresh wrote:Don't get me wrong, I really like Fields alot...But the style of play (SSOL) doesn't play to our strength...Why have the best frontline in the league and not play to their strength...Fields hustles for putbacks and long rebounds...I hope we cut down the threes which might hurt what Fields excels at...We should be looking at taking high percentage shots..SSOl relies on too many threes...So when Fields has good numbers, it could mean we are missing our long jumpers...

Bingo!!!!

not for nothing, but what style do either of you propose the Knicks play?

martin wrote:

Uptown wrote:

holfresh wrote:Don't get me wrong, I really like Fields alot...But the style of play (SSOL) doesn't play to our strength...Why have the best frontline in the league and not play to their strength...Fields hustles for putbacks and long rebounds...I hope we cut down the threes which might hurt what Fields excels at...We should be looking at taking high percentage shots..SSOl relies on too many threes...So when Fields has good numbers, it could mean we are missing our long jumpers...

Bingo!!!!

not for nothing, but what style do either of you propose the Knicks play?

Feilds is 6'7, Melo 6'8, Stat 6'10 and Chandler is 7'0....The doesn't read like an long distance shooting team to me. With that lineup I would do the following:

*Pick-n-roll with the pg and Chandler and Amare. (They can switch it up depending on matchups)
* Baseline flex cuts which will get Melo and Amare rolling into the paint off baseline picks unmolested. If they cant get it in the paint (if the defender fights through the pick,) the flex cuts continues and will lead to either Amare or Melo popping out elbow high off down screens where they can shoot the ball on the catch or lob to Chandler who would be next rolling off the baseline pick.
* Play a two man game with Melo and Amare. Pick and roll action between the two of them and some high low stuff with Melo high and Stat low (Amare may need to work on his interior game a little)
* Backdoor/baseline cuts and give and go action on the wings.

Yes, having a pure pg makes everyone jobs easier because a pg can improvise and create something out of nothing, but my fear is that even with Baron running the show the philosophy isn't going to change because MDA plays spread ball with everyone with the exception of Chanlder waiting outside the arch for a drive and kick. Thats not basketball. At least, its not winning basketball especially with the imposing frontline that we have. We need to play north and south, not east and west...

martin wrote:

Uptown wrote:

martin wrote:

Uptown wrote:

holfresh wrote:Don't get me wrong, I really like Fields alot...But the style of play (SSOL) doesn't play to our strength...Why have the best frontline in the league and not play to their strength...Fields hustles for putbacks and long rebounds...I hope we cut down the threes which might hurt what Fields excels at...We should be looking at taking high percentage shots..SSOl relies on too many threes...So when Fields has good numbers, it could mean we are missing our long jumpers...

Bingo!!!!

not for nothing, but what style do either of you propose the Knicks play?

Feilds is 6'7, Melo 6'8, Stat 6'10 and Chandler is 7'0....The doesn't read like an long distance shooting team to me. With that lineup I would do the following:

*Pick-n-roll with the pg and Chandler and Amare.
* Baseline flex cuts which will get Melo and Amare rolling into the paint off baseline picks unmolested. If they cant get it in the paint (if the defender fights through the pick, the flex cuts continues and will lead to either Amare or Melo popping out elbow high off down screens where they can shoot the ball on the catch or lob to Chandler who would be next rolling off the baseline pick.
* Play a two man game with Melo and Amare. Pick and roll action between the two of them and some high low stuff with Melo high and Stat low (Amare may need to work on his interior game a little)
* Backdoor/baseline cuts and give and go action on the wings.

Yes, having a pure pg makes everyone jobs easier because a pg can improvise and create something out of nothing, but my fear is that even with Baron running the show the philosophy isn't going to change because MDA plays spread ball with everyone with the exception of Chanlder waiting outside the arch for a drive and kick. Thats not basketball. At least, its not winning basketball especially with the imposing frontline that we have. We need to play north and south, not east and west...

hmm, I think you described EXACTLY what MDA wants to do. Executing it with TD is an entirely different story.

Not really, he starts the game with one flex cut involving Fields comming in from the baseline but thats it. There is no elbow action or down screens that follows. Melo and Stat are accurate 15 foot shooters, so why not continue the Flex cut all the way through? MDA wants his players to extend beyond the 3 point line leaving the paint open. The flex offense is not run this way. The flex offense bombards the paint with constant cutting and screening which is what we should do with the front line we have.

Would love to see Melo and Stat play more two man games aswell. These are our two best players and need to touch the ball everytime down. Pick and roll action between these two would be deadly considering Melo has shown that he can run it. You dont need TD in this equation.

I just cant stand to see our bigs: Harrelson and Anthony and now Stat jacking up three's. Anthony is one of if not the biggest/strongest SF in the league. We dont need him 23 feet away from the basket. Stat is one of the most athletic/strongest PF's in the game, we didn't need him to add a 3 point shot to his game in the off season. we needed him to add some pdst moves. The reason he added the 3 point shot is because the philosophy he's being taught is backwards.

nixluva wrote:SSOL is NOT JACKING 3'S!!!!!! DAMN IT! If I read that one more freakin time. Clearly none of you actually understand the crux of the offense and how it's designed work. You only have the floor spread to open up the middle for PnR. However if you don't have a PG or anyone that can consistently work the defense and get the PnR going then you only have the spot up shooters left.

There's a reason that this team and the Suns have been such high scoring teams. It's cuz MDA's spread offense works when it's run properly. You want guys like STAT and Chandler and Melo to have ROOM to operate and the only way to do that is the be effective in making teams pay when they try to clog the paint. Still you need crisp passing and execution to make it work just like any other style. People jump all over this style when it's floundering with an awful PG and shooters that are not in a groove, but when the shooters are in midseason form and we have good guard play you will see that it's going to be very effective.

We don't need to change anything!!! We need better execution!!! Just cuz it didn't work tonight you don't completely give up on a system that has worked. You keep getting reps and keep working until they get it right. This team is beating itself right now.

Nix?! Are you yelling at me!!! ROTFLMAO!!!!

Since MDA has been here we have been second in the league every year in three point attempts:

2011-2012: Knicks shoot 30 3's per
2010-2011: Knicks shoot 30 s's per 2nd only to the Magic (league average around 22 3's per)
2009-2010: Knicks shoot 31 3's per 2nd only to the Magic (league average aroung 22 3's per)
2008-2009: Knicks shoot 32 3's per 2nd again the the Magic (league average around 22 3's per)

Please dont argue that this offense doesn't revolve around shooting 3's. Yes, the pick and roll is apart of the offense but the 3's are equally if not more important. And dont blame the pg's because we've had a ton since MDA's been here. Douglas, Felton, Marbury, Nate, Billups, etc. The common denominator is the coach. This is his baby!!!!

nixluva wrote:SSOL is NOT JACKING 3'S!!!!!! DAMN IT! If I read that one more freakin time. Clearly none of you actually understand the crux of the offense and how it's designed work. You only have the floor spread to open up the middle for PnR. However if you don't have a PG or anyone that can consistently work the defense and get the PnR going then you only have the spot up shooters left.

There's a reason that this team and the Suns have been such high scoring teams. It's cuz MDA's spread offense works when it's run properly. You want guys like STAT and Chandler and Melo to have ROOM to operate and the only way to do that is the be effective in making teams pay when they try to clog the paint. Still you need crisp passing and execution to make it work just like any other style. People jump all over this style when it's floundering with an awful PG and shooters that are not in a groove, but when the shooters are in midseason form and we have good guard play you will see that it's going to be very effective.

We don't need to change anything!!! We need better execution!!! Just cuz it didn't work tonight you don't completely give up on a system that has worked. You keep getting reps and keep working until they get it right. This team is beating itself right now.

With a frontcourt of Melo, Amar'e, and Chandler, none of whom shoot the 3 particularly well and are better served to play bully ball inside the paint...shouldn't we design a new offensive system based on our frontcourt for the foreseeable future? I mean how exactly does Amar'e benefit in D'Antoni's system when he's no longer the roll guy, with Chandler replacing him on the PnR? Do we really want to squander Amar'es talents by turning him into Shawne Williams and have him camp out at the corner 3?

This forum is overrun by people suffering from confirmation bias as is aost any discussion anywhere involving sports fans. Problem is people never seem to acknowledge that something outside the traditional stereotypes can also work and to measure it you may need a metric not based on the stereotype.

misterearl wrote:

loweyecue wrote:Facts and data are minor inconveniences in the court of public opinion. Most people aren't equipped to recognize anything that doesn't automatically confirm their theory or belief system.

This forum is overrun by people suffering from confirmation bias as is aost any discussion anywhere involving sports fans. Problem is people never seem to acknowledge that something outside the traditional stereotypes can also work and to measure it you may need a metric not based on the stereotype.

3-for-19 shooting in the second quarter was all jumpers.

Translation For The Statistically Impaired: "Live by the jump shot, die by the jumpshot"

We were an outside shooting team because our players aren't good enough to get the ball inside to our bigs without turning it over. What were people expecting to see? Our bigs Amare and Tyson can't put the ball in the floor and the guards can't penetrate.

You don't need to be statistically impaired to go looking for "evidence" that supports your POV while ignoring everything else. That's just something people do. Some have enough smarts to at least review their own biases and try to breakdown what is or isn't fact while the majority of people are too happy to heap sarcasm and insults to prove their non arguements.

The team started to take it inside in the second half but guess what? No one acknowledged the possibility that MDA may have made an in game adjustment. You know why? Because it doesn't jive with the pre ordained belief system.

This isn't about facts or figures or basketball anymore. For some here it's like religion. Blame MDA first, then find reasons to support your non arguments.

misterearl wrote:"We were an outside shooting team because our players aren't good enough to get the ball inside to our bigs without turning it over."

Solution

Slide Mike Bibby to the end of the bench. Demote Toney Douglas to pine brother status. Give Iman Shumpert the keys. Give Jeremy Lin Mike Bibby's minutes.

Hold on tight through January.

Look for positive, and consistent, signs of team cohesion by Valentines Day

I like this plan.

EDIT: Just to add. Bibby is done, done, done. Dude can't even hit opne 3s now. Bibby makes Roger mason Jr. look like an all-star.

"McAdoo's tenure in Buffalo ended in 1976 when the team, unwilling to pay him a market value contract and fearful of losing him for nothing when he became a free agent, dealt him to the New York Knicks. McAdoo received unwarranted criticism when the Knicks - a hodgepodge collection of players haphazardly thrown together - failed to recapture past glory. McAdoo's time as a Knick tends to be overlooked, but during this period he averaged 26.7 ppg - which still ranks first in franchise history - and became the youngest player in NBA history to score 10,000 career points (Kobe Bryant broke this record in 2002-03).

- David Friedman

"At one point during the second quarter, the Knick lineup consisted of Anthony, Mike Bibby, Bill Walker, Steve Novak, and Jerome Jordan."

Keep Landry Fields

"No one will ever accuse me of being a Landry Fields-devotee, but last night was a solid example of what he can bring to the table, even when his shot is not falling. Fields was incredibly active on both ends of the floor (+13), and despite picking up three personal fouls in the first half, he managed to stick around for the entire fourth quarter comeback-attempt. If Fields can avoid the wallflower-tendencies he’s shown since the arrival of Anthony, there is no reason why he can’t be an integral piece to a championship puzzle."

- Jamie O'Grady

The Knicks current core (guys who can be trusted) group consists of only 4 guys - Amar'e, Carmelo, Fields and Chandler.

Douglas cannot be trusted. Bill Walker plays to a different beat. Jeffries' intangibles need to be more tangible. Jerome Jordan is raw. Novak plays fragile. The game passed Mike Bibby two years ago. Balkman is entertaining but limited.

Harrellson is large and likeable, but still a rookie. Shumpert is confident, but still a rookie. Jeremy Lin is nailed to the pine. Baron Davis is in a suit.

Four.