[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

Carmelo's Preseason
Forum Index  ›  NY Knicks Forum
Page 2 of 2 ‹ Previous 1  2 
« Reply To Topic
Author Thread
fishmike
Posts: 53829
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
12/22/2011  8:34 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
firefly wrote:I think this thread needs to be deleted. If Melo sees what Bonn thinks, hes obviously going to take it badly. Its going to get into his head and crush him. I can see him turning into Brian Scalabrine overnight because Bonn thinks hes a scrub. If Melo finally sees - what until now only Bonn has known - that hes an offensive scrub, itll be the worst hing to happen to him. It will crumble him, turn him into a shell of a man. We must protect him from this.

You obviously do not closely read what I write or have more general reading difficulties
na... he nailed it
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
AUTOADVERT
Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
12/22/2011  8:36 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/22/2011  8:37 AM
fishmike wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
firefly wrote:I think this thread needs to be deleted. If Melo sees what Bonn thinks, hes obviously going to take it badly. Its going to get into his head and crush him. I can see him turning into Brian Scalabrine overnight because Bonn thinks hes a scrub. If Melo finally sees - what until now only Bonn has known - that hes an offensive scrub, itll be the worst hing to happen to him. It will crumble him, turn him into a shell of a man. We must protect him from this.

You obviously do not closely read what I write or have more general reading difficulties
na... he nailed it

You're right; I don't know what I was thinking. Carmelo is flawless.
BigRedDog
Posts: 22192
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 1/23/2004
Member: #569
12/22/2011  8:39 AM
Bonn you are definately the most negative person on this forum, especially when it comes to Melo.
fishmike 9/27/2024 11:00 PM Ug I hate this. The idea of Towns is great until you see what a pussy he is. Jules is a dog. DD was a flamethrower locked up cheap for 3 more years. First Leon move I hate
jrodmc
Posts: 32927
Alba Posts: 50
Joined: 11/24/2004
Member: #805
USA
12/22/2011  8:41 AM
He should only shoot when open.

He should only pass when his teammate is open, staring directly at him, and the defense is on a 20 second time out.

He should model his play offensively after Artis Gilmore, since 49% FG is the goal or he should retire now and save us all the pain of watching him hit contested jumpers at only a 45% clip.

Hooked on phonics worked for me.
Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
12/22/2011  8:42 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/22/2011  8:42 AM
BigRedDog wrote:Bonn you are definately the most negative person on this forum, especially when it comes to Melo.

You are right; I would also be one of the most positive people about Melo on a Nuggets' forum among fans who have watched him his whole career. I'm critical of him because I know he has the ability to go from being a good player to being on the Lebron/Wade level, though.
Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
12/22/2011  9:00 AM
jrodmc wrote:He should only shoot when open.

He should only pass when his teammate is open, staring directly at him, and the defense is on a 20 second time out.

He should model his play offensively after Artis Gilmore, since 49% FG is the goal or he should retire now and save us all the pain of watching him hit contested jumpers at only a 45% clip.

Hooked on phonics worked for me.


No one should shoot contested shots with a lot of time on the shot-clock. Why take a shot with 18 left on the clock that you could still get if necessary with 5 on the clock?

If Melo finally sees - what until now only Bonn has known

I am not that talented an observer. Many journalists and fans outside this forum have written about his offensive inefficiency and questionable shot selection. I am the only one *here* who will discuss any of his shortcomings though (albeit within the context of a discussion of his strengths too).
jrodmc
Posts: 32927
Alba Posts: 50
Joined: 11/24/2004
Member: #805
USA
12/22/2011  10:19 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/23/2011  3:39 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
jrodmc wrote:He should only shoot when open.

He should only pass when his teammate is open, staring directly at him, and the defense is on a 20 second time out.

He should model his play offensively after Artis Gilmore, since 49% FG is the goal or he should retire now and save us all the pain of watching him hit contested jumpers at only a 45% clip.

Hooked on phonics worked for me.


No one should shoot contested shots with a lot of time on the shot-clock. Why take a shot with 18 left on the clock that you could still get if necessary with 5 on the clock?

*Makes note to self...check to see who our current head coach is.*

Bonn1997 wrote:
someBonn1997hater wrote:If Melo finally sees - what until now only Bonn has known

I am not that talented an observer. Many journalists and fans outside this forum have written about his offensive inefficiency and questionable shot selection. I am the only one *here* who will discuss any of his shortcomings though (albeit within the context of a discussion of his strengths too).

No one is perpetuating the enshrinement of Melo as the new logo. (At least, I hope not) He's not the next coming of BK, too late in his career to suddenly start going for that level of efficiency, but he's still the best SF we've had since BK. IMHO I think Melo is what he is, and you're (slightly unreasonably) hoping for someone else to emerge.
fishmike
Posts: 53829
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
12/22/2011  10:25 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
firefly wrote:I think this thread needs to be deleted. If Melo sees what Bonn thinks, hes obviously going to take it badly. Its going to get into his head and crush him. I can see him turning into Brian Scalabrine overnight because Bonn thinks hes a scrub. If Melo finally sees - what until now only Bonn has known - that hes an offensive scrub, itll be the worst hing to happen to him. It will crumble him, turn him into a shell of a man. We must protect him from this.

You obviously do not closely read what I write or have more general reading difficulties
na... he nailed it

You're right; I don't know what I was thinking. Carmelo is flawless.
sure... and why would Chewbacca, a 7 foot wookie from Kyshyyk want to live on Endor with a bunch of 3 foot tall Ewoks? It doesnt make sense.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
firefly
Posts: 23226
Alba Posts: 17
Joined: 7/26/2004
Member: #721
United Kingdom
12/22/2011  10:34 AM
I will add one thing. I watched most of Melos games with us last year and both preseason games. You say he takes contested shots based on your observations in preseason, thus indicating poor shot selection. I can only assume you're talking about his right elbow jumper because that's the only set shot he takes (outside of straight-on threes, which have their own mitigation) and he takes a lot of them. Melo is The best mid-range shooter in NBA, that much even his detractors in the media acknowledge.

I would want him to take that shot every play. I don't care whether he's guarded by Gary Payton and Ben Wallace, that shot is his comfort zone and that's what makes him unguardable from midrange. He takes that contested jumper two or three times and then the defender crowds him to nullify it. That's when Melo blows by him for a layup. Without that contested jumper, Melo wouldn't be half the offensive player he is. If you don't like him taking that shot, then you will never like Melo or appreciate him as a basketball player, and that's your problem not ours or his.

Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream things that never were and ask why not?
knicks1248
Posts: 42059
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/3/2004
Member: #582
12/22/2011  11:18 AM
fishmike wrote:2-0

bottom line

ES
Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
12/22/2011  11:38 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/22/2011  11:39 AM
firefly wrote:I will add one thing. I watched most of Melos games with us last year and both preseason games. You say he takes contested shots based on your observations in preseason, thus indicating poor shot selection. I can only assume you're talking about his right elbow jumper because that's the only set shot he takes (outside of straight-on threes, which have their own mitigation) and he takes a lot of them. Melo is The best mid-range shooter in NBA, that much even his detractors in the media acknowledge.

I would want him to take that shot every play. I don't care whether he's guarded by Gary Payton and Ben Wallace, that shot is his comfort zone and that's what makes him unguardable from midrange. He takes that contested jumper two or three times and then the defender crowds him to nullify it. That's when Melo blows by him for a layup. Without that contested jumper, Melo wouldn't be half the offensive player he is. If you don't like him taking that shot, then you will never like Melo or appreciate him as a basketball player, and that's your problem not ours or his.


It seems like you don't like my comments about Melo and that's your problem, not mine. I do like Melo for the potential he has and proudly wear my Carmelo shirt. He needs a coach that won't tolerate his bad shots though. I have no idea what the basis for your claim that he's the best mid range shooter in the game is, though. If you look at the link below, you'll see that last year he made 36.8% of his shots from 10-15 feet out (league average = 39.4%) and 40.0% from 16-23 feet (league average = 39.5%). That is NOT the kind of shot you want to take with more than 5 seconds on the shot-clock.
http://hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Carmelo%20Anthony
firefly
Posts: 23226
Alba Posts: 17
Joined: 7/26/2004
Member: #721
United Kingdom
12/22/2011  11:58 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
firefly wrote:I will add one thing. I watched most of Melos games with us last year and both preseason games. You say he takes contested shots based on your observations in preseason, thus indicating poor shot selection. I can only assume you're talking about his right elbow jumper because that's the only set shot he takes (outside of straight-on threes, which have their own mitigation) and he takes a lot of them. Melo is The best mid-range shooter in NBA, that much even his detractors in the media acknowledge.

I would want him to take that shot every play. I don't care whether he's guarded by Gary Payton and Ben Wallace, that shot is his comfort zone and that's what makes him unguardable from midrange. He takes that contested jumper two or three times and then the defender crowds him to nullify it. That's when Melo blows by him for a layup. Without that contested jumper, Melo wouldn't be half the offensive player he is. If you don't like him taking that shot, then you will never like Melo or appreciate him as a basketball player, and that's your problem not ours or his.


It seems like you don't like my comments about Melo and that's your problem, not mine. I do like Melo for the potential he has and proudly wear my Carmelo shirt. He needs a coach that won't tolerate his bad shots though. I have no idea what the basis for your claim that he's the best mid range shooter in the game is, though. If you look at the link below, you'll see that last year he made 36.8% of his shots from 10-15 feet out (league average = 39.4%) and 40.0% from 16-23 feet (league average = 39.5%). That is NOT the kind of shot you want to take with more than 5 seconds on the shot-clock.
http://hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Carmelo%20Anthony

Stats are fine and good but they dont account for lots of things, like how keyed in to the individual player the defense is (in Carmelos case a lot) how many touches a player gets, how pressured he is to score for his team compared to other scoring options etc etc.

If you can think of another NBA player who is a better mid-range shooter, please share.

Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream things that never were and ask why not?
Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
12/22/2011  12:07 PM
firefly wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
firefly wrote:I will add one thing. I watched most of Melos games with us last year and both preseason games. You say he takes contested shots based on your observations in preseason, thus indicating poor shot selection. I can only assume you're talking about his right elbow jumper because that's the only set shot he takes (outside of straight-on threes, which have their own mitigation) and he takes a lot of them. Melo is The best mid-range shooter in NBA, that much even his detractors in the media acknowledge.

I would want him to take that shot every play. I don't care whether he's guarded by Gary Payton and Ben Wallace, that shot is his comfort zone and that's what makes him unguardable from midrange. He takes that contested jumper two or three times and then the defender crowds him to nullify it. That's when Melo blows by him for a layup. Without that contested jumper, Melo wouldn't be half the offensive player he is. If you don't like him taking that shot, then you will never like Melo or appreciate him as a basketball player, and that's your problem not ours or his.


It seems like you don't like my comments about Melo and that's your problem, not mine. I do like Melo for the potential he has and proudly wear my Carmelo shirt. He needs a coach that won't tolerate his bad shots though. I have no idea what the basis for your claim that he's the best mid range shooter in the game is, though. If you look at the link below, you'll see that last year he made 36.8% of his shots from 10-15 feet out (league average = 39.4%) and 40.0% from 16-23 feet (league average = 39.5%). That is NOT the kind of shot you want to take with more than 5 seconds on the shot-clock.
http://hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Carmelo%20Anthony

Stats are fine and good but they dont account for lots of things, like how keyed in to the individual player the defense is (in Carmelos case a lot) how many touches a player gets, how pressured he is to score for his team compared to other scoring options etc etc.

If you can think of another NBA player who is a better mid-range shooter, please share.


If you think the fact that he misses almost two-thirds of his mid-range (10-15') shots is just an irrelevant statistic, then let's just say that a discussion between us on this topic will be useless. I on the other hand would love to see him attack the basket and then either finish or pass every time he currently takes contested mid range shots.
firefly
Posts: 23226
Alba Posts: 17
Joined: 7/26/2004
Member: #721
United Kingdom
12/22/2011  12:37 PM
No, due respect I never said it's a useless statistic, I just disagreed with using it to proclaim that Melo is a less-than-average mid-range shooter. I wrote earlier about the effects Melos mid-range shooting has on his game. Again, please name me a better mid-range shooter.
Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream things that never were and ask why not?
Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
12/22/2011  1:57 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/22/2011  2:08 PM
firefly wrote:No, due respect I never said it's a useless statistic, I just disagreed with using it to proclaim that Melo is a less-than-average mid-range shooter. I wrote earlier about the effects Melos mid-range shooting has on his game. Again, please name me a better mid-range shooter.

You'll find a long list of players shooting much better from mid-range. I realize you will then say the statistic doesn't capture Melo's full effect and that the list of players shooting better isn't important. So it's not worth going down that path. I never said Melo was a less-than-average mid-range shooter. I would, however, say that unless a player is at the Reggie Miller or at least Allan Houston level, contested mid-range jumpshots with a lot of time on the clock are poor shots to be taking. If Carmelo is being guarded tightly, that's great - he should drive right by the player. He's a good scorer inside and he's excellent at drawing fouls. If there's 18 left on the clock, why settle for a shot you make less than 37% of the time? Carmelo needs someone like Phil Jackson or Pat Riley to give him some tough love.
jrodmc
Posts: 32927
Alba Posts: 50
Joined: 11/24/2004
Member: #805
USA
12/23/2011  3:56 PM
Hey Bonn, here's a list; short of getting tough love sessions with either of two coaches we're most likely never going to see coaching the Knicks, please tell me which sharpshooting SF you want from the list below instead of Melo.

Rank Player eFG%
1. Shaquille O'Neal .5823
2. Dwight Howard .5778
3. Tyson Chandler .5682
4. Nene Hilario .5633
5. Steve Nash .5554
6. Mike Miller .5470
7. David Lee .5462
8. Eddy Curry .5453
9. Kyle Korver .5401
10. Leandro Barbosa .5392
11. Amare Stoudemire .5380
12. Carlos Boozer .5372
13. Peja Stojakovic .5322
14. Ray Allen .5279
15. Shane Battier .5266
16. Rashard Lewis .5262
17. Andrew Bogut .5249
18. Yao Ming .5246
19. Pau Gasol .5232
20. Boris Diaw .5217
21. Samuel Dalembert .5196
22. Manu Ginobili .5185
23. Emeka Okafor .5161
24. J.R. Smith .5150
25. Jason Terry .5137
26. Jameer Nelson .5133
27. Raja Bell .5127
28. LeBron James .5124
29. Shawn Marion .5120
30. Dirk Nowitzki .5120
31. Vladimir Radmanovic .5102
32. Tony Parker .5102
33. Tim Duncan .5085
34. Kevin Martin .5069
35. Danny Granger .5065
36. Deron Williams .5065
37. Michael Redd .5046
38. Mike Dunleavy .5042
39. Mehmet Okur .5038
40. Jason Richardson .5036
41. Richard Jefferson .5032
42. Chris Paul .5030
43. Kevin Garnett .5028
44. Elton Brand .5019
45 Al Jefferson .5019
46. Lamar Odom .5012
47. Dwyane Wade .5000
48. Ben Gordon .4997
49. Udonis Haslem .4995
50. Gerald Wallace .4993
ramtour420
Posts: 26282
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 3/19/2007
Member: #1388
Russian Federation
12/23/2011  4:04 PM
jrodmc wrote:Hey Bonn, here's a list; short of getting tough love sessions with either of two coaches we're most likely never going to see coaching the Knicks, please tell me which sharpshooting SF you want from the list below instead of Melo.

Rank Player eFG%
1. Shaquille O'Neal .5823
2. Dwight Howard .5778
3. Tyson Chandler .5682
4. Nene Hilario .5633
5. Steve Nash .5554
6. Mike Miller .5470
7. David Lee .5462
8. Eddy Curry .5453
9. Kyle Korver .5401
10. Leandro Barbosa .5392
11. Amare Stoudemire .5380
12. Carlos Boozer .5372
13. Peja Stojakovic .5322
14. Ray Allen .5279
15. Shane Battier .5266
16. Rashard Lewis .5262
17. Andrew Bogut .5249
18. Yao Ming .5246
19. Pau Gasol .5232
20. Boris Diaw .5217
21. Samuel Dalembert .5196
22. Manu Ginobili .5185
23. Emeka Okafor .5161
24. J.R. Smith .5150
25. Jason Terry .5137
26. Jameer Nelson .5133
27. Raja Bell .5127
28. LeBron James .5124
29. Shawn Marion .5120
30. Dirk Nowitzki .5120
31. Vladimir Radmanovic .5102
32. Tony Parker .5102
33. Tim Duncan .5085
34. Kevin Martin .5069
35. Danny Granger .5065
36. Deron Williams .5065
37. Michael Redd .5046
38. Mike Dunleavy .5042
39. Mehmet Okur .5038
40. Jason Richardson .5036
41. Richard Jefferson .5032
42. Chris Paul .5030
43. Kevin Garnett .5028
44. Elton Brand .5019
45 Al Jefferson .5019
46. Lamar Odom .5012
47. Dwyane Wade .5000
48. Ben Gordon .4997
49. Udonis Haslem .4995
50. Gerald Wallace .4993


Wtf, Melo not even on the list ? Aaaaaa let's at least try to get Mehmet Okur from the
Nyets
Everything you have ever wanted is on the other side of fear- George Adair
ramtour420
Posts: 26282
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 3/19/2007
Member: #1388
Russian Federation
12/23/2011  4:18 PM
Also, I don't think anyone from that list is a tougher cover from mid range. Maybe Dirk, he might have better mid-range shot. I still think Melo is a tougher cover from 10-12 feet and out
Everything you have ever wanted is on the other side of fear- George Adair
Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
12/23/2011  4:29 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/23/2011  4:33 PM
jrodmc wrote:Hey Bonn, here's a list; short of getting tough love sessions with either of two coaches we're most likely never going to see coaching the Knicks, please tell me which sharpshooting SF you want from the list below instead of Melo.

Rank Player eFG%
1. Shaquille O'Neal .5823
2. Dwight Howard .5778
3. Tyson Chandler .5682
4. Nene Hilario .5633
5. Steve Nash .5554
6. Mike Miller .5470
7. David Lee .5462
8. Eddy Curry .5453
9. Kyle Korver .5401
10. Leandro Barbosa .5392
11. Amare Stoudemire .5380
12. Carlos Boozer .5372
13. Peja Stojakovic .5322
14. Ray Allen .5279
15. Shane Battier .5266
16. Rashard Lewis .5262
17. Andrew Bogut .5249
18. Yao Ming .5246
19. Pau Gasol .5232
20. Boris Diaw .5217
21. Samuel Dalembert .5196
22. Manu Ginobili .5185
23. Emeka Okafor .5161
24. J.R. Smith .5150
25. Jason Terry .5137
26. Jameer Nelson .5133
27. Raja Bell .5127
28. LeBron James .5124
29. Shawn Marion .5120
30. Dirk Nowitzki .5120
31. Vladimir Radmanovic .5102
32. Tony Parker .5102
33. Tim Duncan .5085
34. Kevin Martin .5069
35. Danny Granger .5065
36. Deron Williams .5065
37. Michael Redd .5046
38. Mike Dunleavy .5042
39. Mehmet Okur .5038
40. Jason Richardson .5036
41. Richard Jefferson .5032
42. Chris Paul .5030
43. Kevin Garnett .5028
44. Elton Brand .5019
45 Al Jefferson .5019
46. Lamar Odom .5012
47. Dwyane Wade .5000
48. Ben Gordon .4997
49. Udonis Haslem .4995
50. Gerald Wallace .4993

I could come up with a list but the issue though is that I want Melo to stop taking *so many* shots that he hits at a low percentage. The issue is not the low percentage per se but rather the low percentage plus the frequency of contested shots. These two factors combined lead to several missed contested jump-shots per game. It's really just blind love if you want him taking several contested shots per game from an area that he hits at less than 37%.

On edit: I thought you were posting mid-range percentages rather than effective field goal percentages. My point still stands though about Melo taking way too many contested jump-shots. Also, I do not use the effective field goal percentage statistic. True shooting percentage is a better measure of shooting efficiency.

Also note that most people do not understand the importance of offensive efficiency. If player A goes 9-18 for 25 points and player B goes 9-20 for 25 points but B is much flashier and hitting more impressive shots, most people will think player B is the better player.
ramtour420
Posts: 26282
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 3/19/2007
Member: #1388
Russian Federation
12/25/2011  3:35 AM
Carmelo Anthony Preseason Highlight Mix, By BigC

http://www.fromthebaseline.com/home-mainmenu-1/blogs/4375-carmelo-anthony-preseason-highlight-mix

Everything you have ever wanted is on the other side of fear- George Adair
Page 2 of 2 ‹ Previous 1  2 
« Reply To Topic
Carmelo's Preseason
Forum Index  ›  NY Knicks Forum

©2001-2025 ultimateknicks.comm All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.

Terms of Use and Privacy Policy