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MELO Ranked #12 on ESPN's TOP 100 Players
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Nalod
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11/27/2011  2:37 PM
No teams wins with just one major talent.

Lets not be silly, Amare is a great player and at # 13, or Melo @ 12 is all subjective.

Pau took that team to another level. Amare would have also.

Lakers are a better team and the players get more cred.

Pau also had Phil Jax.

Put Phil on the knicks and lets see what happens!

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Silverfuel
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11/27/2011  2:44 PM
Nalod wrote:No teams wins with just one major talent.

Lets not be silly, Amare is a great player and at # 13, or Melo @ 12 is all subjective.

Pau took that team to another level. Amare would have also.

Lakers are a better team and the players get more cred.

Pau also had Phil Jax.

Put Phil on the knicks and lets see what happens!


That goes without saying. The debate was Pau vs Amare, who is better.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
Nalod
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11/27/2011  2:48 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/27/2011  2:51 PM
Silverfuel wrote:
Nalod wrote:No teams wins with just one major talent.

Lets not be silly, Amare is a great player and at # 13, or Melo @ 12 is all subjective.

Pau took that team to another level. Amare would have also.

Lakers are a better team and the players get more cred.

Pau also had Phil Jax.

Put Phil on the knicks and lets see what happens!


That goes without saying. The debate was Pau vs Amare, who is better.

Thats easy to answer. Pau!

Why? Its subjective.

Pau was also better for that system then Amare at that time and place.

Can't argue two rings. Dude also is though enough to play big for Spain. Amare's knees are less stable.

Amare is awesome and is far more athletic. They are two different type of players.

Bonn1997
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11/27/2011  3:09 PM
Silverfuel wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Silverfuel wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Silverfuel wrote:
Nalod wrote:
nixluva wrote:Gasol? I just can't see how this guy is ahead of Melo and STAT. Gasol is VERY good, but i'd have to put him behind Melo and STAT. Gasol has shriveled in big situations at times IMO. He's gotten GREAT support from being on a stacked team.

Pau has had put himself in more big moments than Stat.

He still has two rings and Bynum was not always there.

Lets hope Stat's back holds. Otherwise he is a bloated contract.

Stat needs his athletic advantage to be effective.


Pau had Kobe which is why he won rings. The other poster brought up Bynum to point out how it makes Pau's defense look better not comparing how many more rings he has.

Comparing Pau's rings to Amare's rings is like comparing apples and oranges.


I have to agree with Nalod here. Pau took a mediocre team and turned it into a championship-level team. Maybe Amare hasn't had the same opportunity but that doesn't mean you should ignore what Pau did. Amare has had the very rare privilege of playing with a 2 time league MVP and several all-stars.

I don't know if you are kidding or if you are serious. Are you suggesting Pau is the reason the Lakers won championships?

The reason? There's no such thing as "the reason" a team wins a championship. You seem stuck in "single causality" thinking. He was the biggest change by far though in the team's transformation from mediocrity to championship level, though.

There you go arguing semantics again. Ok, let me put it to you this way; who was the best player on the Lakers?

Cause when you say "Pau took a mediocre team and turned it into a championship-level team," it seems like you are saying he is the best player on that team and not Kobe.

Regarding Amare, look at Phoenix's record this season. Compare their record to last season. Where was the two time MVP? Not that valuable without Amare was he?

Your comment would be justifiable if I were arguing Amare did not help his team. But I'm not. Of course he did and of course the team is worse without him.

The two time MVP player won 14 less games minus Amare which proves that he is not as valuable without Amare. Where is your "he was the biggest change" theory when discussing Amare? You used it for Pau right? Which means "Amare has had the rare privilege" is not a fair statement according to your logic. He averaged 26 points that year. He scored 37ppg in the playoff series when Duncan was guarding him! He was not the reason the Suns didn't win a championship.

Regarding the two-time MVP, he's old and slow now. Those awards were from 5 and 6 seasons ago.

His numbers have not gone down! He is still averaging 15ppg and 11apg. Old and slow my ass. Put him next to Amare and he still wins over 50 games!! And why would you take into consideration that it was 5 years ago for Nash when you want to hold Amare to a higher standard? Amare was also very young and just coming back from a knee surgery 4 or 5 years ago!

Losing Amare was the biggest change in the Suns drop in performance (as I already indicated). They did also shortly into the season lose their best scorer in Jason Richardson, though, and that was a significant secondary loss.

What you seem to be misunderstanding about Pau is that the mediocre .500 Lakers team already had Kobe. Getting Pau was the biggest change when the team went from mediocrity to championship level.

Silverfuel
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11/27/2011  4:30 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
Silverfuel wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Silverfuel wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Silverfuel wrote:
Nalod wrote:
nixluva wrote:Gasol? I just can't see how this guy is ahead of Melo and STAT. Gasol is VERY good, but i'd have to put him behind Melo and STAT. Gasol has shriveled in big situations at times IMO. He's gotten GREAT support from being on a stacked team.

Pau has had put himself in more big moments than Stat.

He still has two rings and Bynum was not always there.

Lets hope Stat's back holds. Otherwise he is a bloated contract.

Stat needs his athletic advantage to be effective.


Pau had Kobe which is why he won rings. The other poster brought up Bynum to point out how it makes Pau's defense look better not comparing how many more rings he has.

Comparing Pau's rings to Amare's rings is like comparing apples and oranges.


I have to agree with Nalod here. Pau took a mediocre team and turned it into a championship-level team. Maybe Amare hasn't had the same opportunity but that doesn't mean you should ignore what Pau did. Amare has had the very rare privilege of playing with a 2 time league MVP and several all-stars.

I don't know if you are kidding or if you are serious. Are you suggesting Pau is the reason the Lakers won championships?

The reason? There's no such thing as "the reason" a team wins a championship. You seem stuck in "single causality" thinking. He was the biggest change by far though in the team's transformation from mediocrity to championship level, though.

There you go arguing semantics again. Ok, let me put it to you this way; who was the best player on the Lakers?

Cause when you say "Pau took a mediocre team and turned it into a championship-level team," it seems like you are saying he is the best player on that team and not Kobe.

Regarding Amare, look at Phoenix's record this season. Compare their record to last season. Where was the two time MVP? Not that valuable without Amare was he?

Your comment would be justifiable if I were arguing Amare did not help his team. But I'm not. Of course he did and of course the team is worse without him.

The two time MVP player won 14 less games minus Amare which proves that he is not as valuable without Amare. Where is your "he was the biggest change" theory when discussing Amare? You used it for Pau right? Which means "Amare has had the rare privilege" is not a fair statement according to your logic. He averaged 26 points that year. He scored 37ppg in the playoff series when Duncan was guarding him! He was not the reason the Suns didn't win a championship.

Regarding the two-time MVP, he's old and slow now. Those awards were from 5 and 6 seasons ago.

His numbers have not gone down! He is still averaging 15ppg and 11apg. Old and slow my ass. Put him next to Amare and he still wins over 50 games!! And why would you take into consideration that it was 5 years ago for Nash when you want to hold Amare to a higher standard? Amare was also very young and just coming back from a knee surgery 4 or 5 years ago!

Losing Amare was the biggest change in the Suns drop in performance (as I already indicated). They did also shortly into the season lose their best scorer in Jason Richardson, though, and that was a significant secondary loss.

What you seem to be misunderstanding about Pau is that the mediocre .500 Lakers team already had Kobe. Getting Pau was the biggest change when the team went from mediocrity to championship level.


I am not misunderstanding that at all but you cannot form an opinion based on one season. If you want to, then take a look at what happened to Phoenix after Amare left. That collapse is just as drastic as the Lakers resurgence. So should they cancel each other out? Amare outperformed Pau last year and thats what the rankings in this thread are based on.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
Silverfuel
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11/27/2011  4:37 PM
Nalod wrote:
Silverfuel wrote:
Nalod wrote:No teams wins with just one major talent.

Lets not be silly, Amare is a great player and at # 13, or Melo @ 12 is all subjective.

Pau took that team to another level. Amare would have also.

Lakers are a better team and the players get more cred.

Pau also had Phil Jax.

Put Phil on the knicks and lets see what happens!


That goes without saying. The debate was Pau vs Amare, who is better.

Thats easy to answer. Pau!

Why? Its subjective.

Pau was also better for that system then Amare at that time and place.

Can't argue two rings. Dude also is though enough to play big for Spain. Amare's knees are less stable.

Amare is awesome and is far more athletic. They are two different type of players.


The answer is subjective which is what makes this and every other debate on this forum. About the two rings, it is apples and oranges. Kobe got Pau those two rings. Pau has more rings than Dirk. Does that make him better than Dirk? Not when Dirk lit him up last season in the playoffs. Pau from 3 years ago, would have been better than Amare 3 years ago. But this thread is ranking them by their performance last year. Also, Amare has never had a teammate as good as Kobe. He finally has Melo, we will see what they can do this year.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
nixluva
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11/27/2011  4:52 PM
The 2.5 seasons Joe Johnson played with Amar'e he wasn't an All Star yet! He was an up and coming player but Johnson didn't make his 1st All Star appearance until 2007 when he was in ATL. Johnson avg'd 15.2 ppg in his 3.5 years with the Suns.

Sean Marion was an All Star in 2003, but not in 04. Then 2005, 06, 07. Marion wasn't an All Star in 08 and STAT's last 2 years in PHX Marion wasn't even there. So for STAT's last 3 years with Marion, he wasn't an All Star and hasn't reached that level again.

Shaq was on the downside of his career by the time he came along. Shaq was still effective, but not as dominant as in the past. In fact his slowness was a major factor in why the Suns couldn't go further in the playoffs. It matters whether a player is actually playing at an All Star level. Just having made All Star teams doesn't mean that the player is a perennial All Star of the highest order. Marion sure hasn't been that kind of player and Johnson hadn't reached that level yet. So can we stop with saying Amar'e played with all these All Stars! Nash was the key guy but those teams weren't stacked like the Lakers!!! In fact many of those years those teams were extremely small.

I think Pau is a very good player, but he's not the kind of DOMINANT player that STAT can be and I think many of you are really stretching the truth when talking about Pau. IMO no one fears Pau in the same way they do Amar'e.
If as a team you don't completely focus your defense to stopping Amar'e he'll KILL you! Teams pretty much single cover Pau. Teams practically have to have much of their defense paying attention to Amar'e at all times. COME ON! There's no comparison. All of us saw how dominant at key points Amar'e could be. He led the league in 4th qtr scoring. Pau chips in, but he's not the driving force that Amar'e is.

Bonn1997
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11/27/2011  6:31 PM
Silverfuel wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Silverfuel wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Silverfuel wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Silverfuel wrote:
Nalod wrote:
nixluva wrote:Gasol? I just can't see how this guy is ahead of Melo and STAT. Gasol is VERY good, but i'd have to put him behind Melo and STAT. Gasol has shriveled in big situations at times IMO. He's gotten GREAT support from being on a stacked team.

Pau has had put himself in more big moments than Stat.

He still has two rings and Bynum was not always there.

Lets hope Stat's back holds. Otherwise he is a bloated contract.

Stat needs his athletic advantage to be effective.


Pau had Kobe which is why he won rings. The other poster brought up Bynum to point out how it makes Pau's defense look better not comparing how many more rings he has.

Comparing Pau's rings to Amare's rings is like comparing apples and oranges.


I have to agree with Nalod here. Pau took a mediocre team and turned it into a championship-level team. Maybe Amare hasn't had the same opportunity but that doesn't mean you should ignore what Pau did. Amare has had the very rare privilege of playing with a 2 time league MVP and several all-stars.

I don't know if you are kidding or if you are serious. Are you suggesting Pau is the reason the Lakers won championships?

The reason? There's no such thing as "the reason" a team wins a championship. You seem stuck in "single causality" thinking. He was the biggest change by far though in the team's transformation from mediocrity to championship level, though.

There you go arguing semantics again. Ok, let me put it to you this way; who was the best player on the Lakers?

Cause when you say "Pau took a mediocre team and turned it into a championship-level team," it seems like you are saying he is the best player on that team and not Kobe.

Regarding Amare, look at Phoenix's record this season. Compare their record to last season. Where was the two time MVP? Not that valuable without Amare was he?

Your comment would be justifiable if I were arguing Amare did not help his team. But I'm not. Of course he did and of course the team is worse without him.

The two time MVP player won 14 less games minus Amare which proves that he is not as valuable without Amare. Where is your "he was the biggest change" theory when discussing Amare? You used it for Pau right? Which means "Amare has had the rare privilege" is not a fair statement according to your logic. He averaged 26 points that year. He scored 37ppg in the playoff series when Duncan was guarding him! He was not the reason the Suns didn't win a championship.

Regarding the two-time MVP, he's old and slow now. Those awards were from 5 and 6 seasons ago.

His numbers have not gone down! He is still averaging 15ppg and 11apg. Old and slow my ass. Put him next to Amare and he still wins over 50 games!! And why would you take into consideration that it was 5 years ago for Nash when you want to hold Amare to a higher standard? Amare was also very young and just coming back from a knee surgery 4 or 5 years ago!

Losing Amare was the biggest change in the Suns drop in performance (as I already indicated). They did also shortly into the season lose their best scorer in Jason Richardson, though, and that was a significant secondary loss.

What you seem to be misunderstanding about Pau is that the mediocre .500 Lakers team already had Kobe. Getting Pau was the biggest change when the team went from mediocrity to championship level.


I am not misunderstanding that at all but you cannot form an opinion based on one season. If you want to, then take a look at what happened to Phoenix after Amare left. That collapse is just as drastic as the Lakers resurgence. So should they cancel each other out? Amare outperformed Pau last year and thats what the rankings in this thread are based on.

Where are you getting the "one season" idea from? The Lakers went from mediocre to championship level for several years. There's no way the two examples are equally dramatic. How many teams have lost multiple key players and then lost 14 more games than the previous season? Many. How many teams after one new acquisition have gone from mediocre deep into the season to championship level for three straight years? Regarding last year, Pau was either comparable to or significantly outperformed (rebounds and assist:turnover ratio) Amare in all categories except PPG, which can be attributed to field goal attempts.
Nalod
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11/27/2011  6:34 PM
Silver,

Pau plays on a better team than Amare. It might not be fair, but maybe this year will be different.

Silverfuel
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11/27/2011  6:54 PM
Nalod wrote:Silver,

Pau plays on a better team than Amare. It might not be fair, but maybe this year will be different.


I never argued fair or not. It doesn't matter in this case which player has a better team.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
nixluva
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11/27/2011  7:01 PM
Amar'e dragged the Suns deep into the playoffs in his last year.

Stoudemire would eventually lead the Suns to a 54–28 record, clinching the third seed in the Western Conference. Stoudemire finished the season averaging 23 points and 9 rebounds on 56% shooting. The Suns would defeat the Portland Trail Blazers 4–2 during the first round of the playoffs and beat the San Antonio Spurs 4–0 in the Conference Semifinals, to meet the defending champion Los Angeles Lakers in the Conference Finals. After dropping the first two games, Stoudemire would score 42 points in game 3 and 21 in game 4, to help the Suns tie the series 2–2. After Ron Artest's buzzer beater in game 5 and Kobe Bryant's 37 points in game 6, the Suns lost the series 4–2.

I think Amar'e has a greater impact on teams than Pau. He can takeover games at any point which Pau has less of an ability to do. Pau IMO is that classic middle of the game performer. He's so skilled and big that he's able to get a very high level of production almost by default. Still Pau doesn't strike the same fear in opponents that Amar'e does. The defensive focus isn't as great on Pau and he's able to get over because of it. Teams expend a lot more energy trying to stop Amar'e.

Silverfuel
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11/27/2011  7:10 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
Silverfuel wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Silverfuel wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Silverfuel wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Silverfuel wrote:
Nalod wrote:
nixluva wrote:Gasol? I just can't see how this guy is ahead of Melo and STAT. Gasol is VERY good, but i'd have to put him behind Melo and STAT. Gasol has shriveled in big situations at times IMO. He's gotten GREAT support from being on a stacked team.

Pau has had put himself in more big moments than Stat.

He still has two rings and Bynum was not always there.

Lets hope Stat's back holds. Otherwise he is a bloated contract.

Stat needs his athletic advantage to be effective.


Pau had Kobe which is why he won rings. The other poster brought up Bynum to point out how it makes Pau's defense look better not comparing how many more rings he has.

Comparing Pau's rings to Amare's rings is like comparing apples and oranges.


I have to agree with Nalod here. Pau took a mediocre team and turned it into a championship-level team. Maybe Amare hasn't had the same opportunity but that doesn't mean you should ignore what Pau did. Amare has had the very rare privilege of playing with a 2 time league MVP and several all-stars.

I don't know if you are kidding or if you are serious. Are you suggesting Pau is the reason the Lakers won championships?

The reason? There's no such thing as "the reason" a team wins a championship. You seem stuck in "single causality" thinking. He was the biggest change by far though in the team's transformation from mediocrity to championship level, though.

There you go arguing semantics again. Ok, let me put it to you this way; who was the best player on the Lakers?

Cause when you say "Pau took a mediocre team and turned it into a championship-level team," it seems like you are saying he is the best player on that team and not Kobe.

Regarding Amare, look at Phoenix's record this season. Compare their record to last season. Where was the two time MVP? Not that valuable without Amare was he?

Your comment would be justifiable if I were arguing Amare did not help his team. But I'm not. Of course he did and of course the team is worse without him.

The two time MVP player won 14 less games minus Amare which proves that he is not as valuable without Amare. Where is your "he was the biggest change" theory when discussing Amare? You used it for Pau right? Which means "Amare has had the rare privilege" is not a fair statement according to your logic. He averaged 26 points that year. He scored 37ppg in the playoff series when Duncan was guarding him! He was not the reason the Suns didn't win a championship.

Regarding the two-time MVP, he's old and slow now. Those awards were from 5 and 6 seasons ago.

His numbers have not gone down! He is still averaging 15ppg and 11apg. Old and slow my ass. Put him next to Amare and he still wins over 50 games!! And why would you take into consideration that it was 5 years ago for Nash when you want to hold Amare to a higher standard? Amare was also very young and just coming back from a knee surgery 4 or 5 years ago!

Losing Amare was the biggest change in the Suns drop in performance (as I already indicated). They did also shortly into the season lose their best scorer in Jason Richardson, though, and that was a significant secondary loss.

What you seem to be misunderstanding about Pau is that the mediocre .500 Lakers team already had Kobe. Getting Pau was the biggest change when the team went from mediocrity to championship level.


I am not misunderstanding that at all but you cannot form an opinion based on one season. If you want to, then take a look at what happened to Phoenix after Amare left. That collapse is just as drastic as the Lakers resurgence. So should they cancel each other out? Amare outperformed Pau last year and thats what the rankings in this thread are based on.

Where are you getting the "one season" idea from? The Lakers went from mediocre to championship level for several years. There's no way the two examples are equally dramatic. How many teams have lost multiple key players and then lost 14 more games than the previous season? Many. How many teams after one new acquisition have gone from mediocre deep into the season to championship level for three straight years? Regarding last year, Pau was either comparable to or significantly outperformed (rebounds and assist:turnover ratio) Amare in all categories except PPG, which can be attributed to field goal attempts.

So going by that you believe that Pau is better than Dirk because that applies to Dirk as well!

Also, Amare had more blocks than Pau and has significantly more ppg than Pau. Amare doesn't have as many people to pass to so he averages one less assist a game than Pau! Also, being the main scoring thread Amare has to run forward so that he can be in a better position to score while Pau can stand back and rebound and Kobe can score so he gets only 2 more rebounds per game than Amare. Amare has more ppg and blocks per game but Pau is better because he can pass to Kobe and he can stand back and rebound while Kobe scores. It is amazing how much you dislike Amare. I know you wanted Bosh but come on now!

A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
Silverfuel
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11/27/2011  7:14 PM
nixluva wrote:Amar'e dragged the Suns deep into the playoffs in his last year.

Stoudemire would eventually lead the Suns to a 54–28 record, clinching the third seed in the Western Conference. Stoudemire finished the season averaging 23 points and 9 rebounds on 56% shooting. The Suns would defeat the Portland Trail Blazers 4–2 during the first round of the playoffs and beat the San Antonio Spurs 4–0 in the Conference Semifinals, to meet the defending champion Los Angeles Lakers in the Conference Finals. After dropping the first two games, Stoudemire would score 42 points in game 3 and 21 in game 4, to help the Suns tie the series 2–2. After Ron Artest's buzzer beater in game 5 and Kobe Bryant's 37 points in game 6, the Suns lost the series 4–2.

I think Amar'e has a greater impact on teams than Pau. He can takeover games at any point which Pau has less of an ability to do. Pau IMO is that classic middle of the game performer. He's so skilled and big that he's able to get a very high level of production almost by default. Still Pau doesn't strike the same fear in opponents that Amar'e does. The defensive focus isn't as great on Pau and he's able to get over because of it. Teams expend a lot more energy trying to stop Amar'e.


This is so true! Amare dropped 30 routinely on Duncan in the playoffs but Pau is better because he gets 2 more rebounds and 1 more assist?
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
Bonn1997
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11/27/2011  7:34 PM
Silverfuel wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Silverfuel wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Silverfuel wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Silverfuel wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Silverfuel wrote:
Nalod wrote:
nixluva wrote:Gasol? I just can't see how this guy is ahead of Melo and STAT. Gasol is VERY good, but i'd have to put him behind Melo and STAT. Gasol has shriveled in big situations at times IMO. He's gotten GREAT support from being on a stacked team.

Pau has had put himself in more big moments than Stat.

He still has two rings and Bynum was not always there.

Lets hope Stat's back holds. Otherwise he is a bloated contract.

Stat needs his athletic advantage to be effective.


Pau had Kobe which is why he won rings. The other poster brought up Bynum to point out how it makes Pau's defense look better not comparing how many more rings he has.

Comparing Pau's rings to Amare's rings is like comparing apples and oranges.


I have to agree with Nalod here. Pau took a mediocre team and turned it into a championship-level team. Maybe Amare hasn't had the same opportunity but that doesn't mean you should ignore what Pau did. Amare has had the very rare privilege of playing with a 2 time league MVP and several all-stars.

I don't know if you are kidding or if you are serious. Are you suggesting Pau is the reason the Lakers won championships?

The reason? There's no such thing as "the reason" a team wins a championship. You seem stuck in "single causality" thinking. He was the biggest change by far though in the team's transformation from mediocrity to championship level, though.

There you go arguing semantics again. Ok, let me put it to you this way; who was the best player on the Lakers?

Cause when you say "Pau took a mediocre team and turned it into a championship-level team," it seems like you are saying he is the best player on that team and not Kobe.

Regarding Amare, look at Phoenix's record this season. Compare their record to last season. Where was the two time MVP? Not that valuable without Amare was he?

Your comment would be justifiable if I were arguing Amare did not help his team. But I'm not. Of course he did and of course the team is worse without him.

The two time MVP player won 14 less games minus Amare which proves that he is not as valuable without Amare. Where is your "he was the biggest change" theory when discussing Amare? You used it for Pau right? Which means "Amare has had the rare privilege" is not a fair statement according to your logic. He averaged 26 points that year. He scored 37ppg in the playoff series when Duncan was guarding him! He was not the reason the Suns didn't win a championship.

Regarding the two-time MVP, he's old and slow now. Those awards were from 5 and 6 seasons ago.

His numbers have not gone down! He is still averaging 15ppg and 11apg. Old and slow my ass. Put him next to Amare and he still wins over 50 games!! And why would you take into consideration that it was 5 years ago for Nash when you want to hold Amare to a higher standard? Amare was also very young and just coming back from a knee surgery 4 or 5 years ago!

Losing Amare was the biggest change in the Suns drop in performance (as I already indicated). They did also shortly into the season lose their best scorer in Jason Richardson, though, and that was a significant secondary loss.

What you seem to be misunderstanding about Pau is that the mediocre .500 Lakers team already had Kobe. Getting Pau was the biggest change when the team went from mediocrity to championship level.


I am not misunderstanding that at all but you cannot form an opinion based on one season. If you want to, then take a look at what happened to Phoenix after Amare left. That collapse is just as drastic as the Lakers resurgence. So should they cancel each other out? Amare outperformed Pau last year and thats what the rankings in this thread are based on.

Where are you getting the "one season" idea from? The Lakers went from mediocre to championship level for several years. There's no way the two examples are equally dramatic. How many teams have lost multiple key players and then lost 14 more games than the previous season? Many. How many teams after one new acquisition have gone from mediocre deep into the season to championship level for three straight years? Regarding last year, Pau was either comparable to or significantly outperformed (rebounds and assist:turnover ratio) Amare in all categories except PPG, which can be attributed to field goal attempts.

So going by that you believe that Pau is better than Dirk because that applies to Dirk as well!

Also, Amare had more blocks than Pau and has significantly more ppg than Pau. Amare doesn't have as many people to pass to so he averages one less assist a game than Pau! Also, being the main scoring thread Amare has to run forward so that he can be in a better position to score while Pau can stand back and rebound and Kobe can score so he gets only 2 more rebounds per game than Amare. Amare has more ppg and blocks per game but Pau is better because he can pass to Kobe and he can stand back and rebound while Kobe scores. It is amazing how much you dislike Amare. I know you wanted Bosh but come on now!


Pau had a better regular season than Dirk did last year.
Regarding the Amare-Pau comparison I'll add the following: Pau is clearly the more efficient offensive player. He shoots a higher percentage and has a much better assist:turnover ratio (you brought up just assists but I've been talking about the assist:turnover ratio, as that's more relevant to offensive efficiency and effectiveness). And Amare's assist:turnover ratio was very bad even in Phoenix when he was privileged to have several all-stars to pass to. Pau is more efficient on offense, a significantly better rebounder, and the blocked shots are quite close although Amare does get a small edge there. Amare when healthy is a very good player. I'm not criticizing him here; I'm just comparing him to a more efficient player with a better track record.
Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
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Member: #581
USA
11/27/2011  7:42 PM
Nalod wrote:Silver,

Pau plays on a better team than Amare. It might not be fair, but maybe this year will be different.


Right now he does. But Amare had a two time MVP and several all-stars. It's not clear to me that the Suns team in its prime without Amare would lose to the Lakers without Pau.
Silverfuel
Posts: 31750
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 6/27/2002
Member: #268
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11/27/2011  7:59 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
Silverfuel wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Silverfuel wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Silverfuel wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Silverfuel wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Silverfuel wrote:
Nalod wrote:
nixluva wrote:Gasol? I just can't see how this guy is ahead of Melo and STAT. Gasol is VERY good, but i'd have to put him behind Melo and STAT. Gasol has shriveled in big situations at times IMO. He's gotten GREAT support from being on a stacked team.

Pau has had put himself in more big moments than Stat.

He still has two rings and Bynum was not always there.

Lets hope Stat's back holds. Otherwise he is a bloated contract.

Stat needs his athletic advantage to be effective.


Pau had Kobe which is why he won rings. The other poster brought up Bynum to point out how it makes Pau's defense look better not comparing how many more rings he has.

Comparing Pau's rings to Amare's rings is like comparing apples and oranges.


I have to agree with Nalod here. Pau took a mediocre team and turned it into a championship-level team. Maybe Amare hasn't had the same opportunity but that doesn't mean you should ignore what Pau did. Amare has had the very rare privilege of playing with a 2 time league MVP and several all-stars.

I don't know if you are kidding or if you are serious. Are you suggesting Pau is the reason the Lakers won championships?

The reason? There's no such thing as "the reason" a team wins a championship. You seem stuck in "single causality" thinking. He was the biggest change by far though in the team's transformation from mediocrity to championship level, though.

There you go arguing semantics again. Ok, let me put it to you this way; who was the best player on the Lakers?

Cause when you say "Pau took a mediocre team and turned it into a championship-level team," it seems like you are saying he is the best player on that team and not Kobe.

Regarding Amare, look at Phoenix's record this season. Compare their record to last season. Where was the two time MVP? Not that valuable without Amare was he?

Your comment would be justifiable if I were arguing Amare did not help his team. But I'm not. Of course he did and of course the team is worse without him.

The two time MVP player won 14 less games minus Amare which proves that he is not as valuable without Amare. Where is your "he was the biggest change" theory when discussing Amare? You used it for Pau right? Which means "Amare has had the rare privilege" is not a fair statement according to your logic. He averaged 26 points that year. He scored 37ppg in the playoff series when Duncan was guarding him! He was not the reason the Suns didn't win a championship.

Regarding the two-time MVP, he's old and slow now. Those awards were from 5 and 6 seasons ago.

His numbers have not gone down! He is still averaging 15ppg and 11apg. Old and slow my ass. Put him next to Amare and he still wins over 50 games!! And why would you take into consideration that it was 5 years ago for Nash when you want to hold Amare to a higher standard? Amare was also very young and just coming back from a knee surgery 4 or 5 years ago!

Losing Amare was the biggest change in the Suns drop in performance (as I already indicated). They did also shortly into the season lose their best scorer in Jason Richardson, though, and that was a significant secondary loss.

What you seem to be misunderstanding about Pau is that the mediocre .500 Lakers team already had Kobe. Getting Pau was the biggest change when the team went from mediocrity to championship level.


I am not misunderstanding that at all but you cannot form an opinion based on one season. If you want to, then take a look at what happened to Phoenix after Amare left. That collapse is just as drastic as the Lakers resurgence. So should they cancel each other out? Amare outperformed Pau last year and thats what the rankings in this thread are based on.

Where are you getting the "one season" idea from? The Lakers went from mediocre to championship level for several years. There's no way the two examples are equally dramatic. How many teams have lost multiple key players and then lost 14 more games than the previous season? Many. How many teams after one new acquisition have gone from mediocre deep into the season to championship level for three straight years? Regarding last year, Pau was either comparable to or significantly outperformed (rebounds and assist:turnover ratio) Amare in all categories except PPG, which can be attributed to field goal attempts.

So going by that you believe that Pau is better than Dirk because that applies to Dirk as well!

Also, Amare had more blocks than Pau and has significantly more ppg than Pau. Amare doesn't have as many people to pass to so he averages one less assist a game than Pau! Also, being the main scoring thread Amare has to run forward so that he can be in a better position to score while Pau can stand back and rebound and Kobe can score so he gets only 2 more rebounds per game than Amare. Amare has more ppg and blocks per game but Pau is better because he can pass to Kobe and he can stand back and rebound while Kobe scores. It is amazing how much you dislike Amare. I know you wanted Bosh but come on now!


Pau had a better regular season than Dirk did last year.

So Pau is better than Dirk? He is not and everyone knows it. Dirk only has one ring, Pau has two. By your logic, Pau is better than him because he is also a significantly better rebounder than Dirk.
Regarding the Amare-Pau comparison I'll add the following: Pau is clearly the more efficient offensive player. He shoots a higher percentage and has a much better assist:turnover ratio (you brought up just assists but I've been talking about the assist:turnover ratio, as that's more relevant to offensive efficiency and effectiveness). And Amare's assist:turnover ratio was very bad even in Phoenix when he was privileged to have several all-stars to pass to. Pau is more efficient on offense, a significantly better rebounder, and the blocked shots are quite close although Amare does get a small edge there. Amare when healthy is a very good player. I'm not criticizing him here; I'm just comparing him to a more efficient player with a better track record.

We aren't debating who is the more efficient offensive player. Amare has more turnovers because he has to carry the offensive load. Since he has to score more often than Pau, his assists are lower too! Amare shoots 50% from the field. Thats because the defense is focused on stopping him. Pau shoots 53% when he is being defended man to man. Not that much better at all! Especially since Amare scored 7 more points per game with that FG%! Also, call it what it is man. Pau wasn't a significantly better rebounder than Amare was last year. Kevin Love was a significantly better rebounder. Pau averaged only 2 more assists a game!
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
nixluva
Posts: 56258
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11/27/2011  8:05 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/27/2011  8:07 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
Nalod wrote:Silver,

Pau plays on a better team than Amare. It might not be fair, but maybe this year will be different.


Right now he does. But Amare had a two time MVP and several all-stars. It's not clear to me that the Suns team in its prime without Amare would lose to the Lakers without Pau.

Stop exaggerating the teams Amare has had around him. I just posted the facts about those Suns teams Amare was on. You can't really count Joe Johnson and Marion has been overrated for the purpose of downplaying the impact of Amar'e. The 2 key players have been Nash and STAT. Where are these "several All Stars" that gave Amar'e an advantage?

The 2.5 seasons Joe Johnson played with Amar'e he wasn't an All Star yet! He was an up and coming player but Johnson didn't make his 1st All Star appearance until 2007 when he was in ATL. Johnson avg'd 15.2 ppg in his 3.5 years with the Suns.

Sean Marion was an All Star in 2003, but not in 04. Then 2005, 06, 07. Marion wasn't an All Star in 08 and STAT's last 2 years in PHX Marion wasn't even there. So for STAT's last 3 years in PHX, one with Marion, he wasn't an All Star and hasn't reached that level again.

Shaq was on the downside of his career by the time he came along. Shaq was still effective, but not as dominant as in the past. In fact his slowness was a major factor in why the Suns couldn't go further in the playoffs. It matters whether a player is actually playing at an All Star level. Just having made All Star teams doesn't mean that the player is a perennial All Star of the highest order. Marion sure hasn't been that kind of player and Johnson hadn't reached that level yet. So can we stop with saying Amar'e played with all these All Stars! Nash was the key guy but those teams weren't stacked like the Lakers!!! In fact many of those years those teams were extremely small.

Silverfuel
Posts: 31750
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Joined: 6/27/2002
Member: #268
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11/27/2011  8:18 PM
nixluva wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Nalod wrote:Silver,

Pau plays on a better team than Amare. It might not be fair, but maybe this year will be different.


Right now he does. But Amare had a two time MVP and several all-stars. It's not clear to me that the Suns team in its prime without Amare would lose to the Lakers without Pau.

Stop exaggerating the teams Amare has had around him. I just posted the facts about those Suns teams Amare was on. You can't really count Joe Johnson and Marion has been overrated for the purpose of downplaying the impact of Amar'e. The 2 key players have been Nash and STAT. Where are these "several All Stars" that gave Amar'e an advantage?

The 2.5 seasons Joe Johnson played with Amar'e he wasn't an All Star yet! He was an up and coming player but Johnson didn't make his 1st All Star appearance until 2007 when he was in ATL. Johnson avg'd 15.2 ppg in his 3.5 years with the Suns.

Sean Marion was an All Star in 2003, but not in 04. Then 2005, 06, 07. Marion wasn't an All Star in 08 and STAT's last 2 years in PHX Marion wasn't even there. So for STAT's last 3 years in PHX, one with Marion, he wasn't an All Star and hasn't reached that level again.

Shaq was on the downside of his career by the time he came along. Shaq was still effective, but not as dominant as in the past. In fact his slowness was a major factor in why the Suns couldn't go further in the playoffs. It matters whether a player is actually playing at an All Star level. Just having made All Star teams doesn't mean that the player is a perennial All Star of the highest order. Marion sure hasn't been that kind of player and Johnson hadn't reached that level yet. So can we stop with saying Amar'e played with all these All Stars! Nash was the key guy but those teams weren't stacked like the Lakers!!! In fact many of those years those teams were extremely small.


Thank you!
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
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11/27/2011  8:46 PM
Silverfuel wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Silverfuel wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Silverfuel wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Silverfuel wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Silverfuel wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Silverfuel wrote:
Nalod wrote:
nixluva wrote:Gasol? I just can't see how this guy is ahead of Melo and STAT. Gasol is VERY good, but i'd have to put him behind Melo and STAT. Gasol has shriveled in big situations at times IMO. He's gotten GREAT support from being on a stacked team.

Pau has had put himself in more big moments than Stat.

He still has two rings and Bynum was not always there.

Lets hope Stat's back holds. Otherwise he is a bloated contract.

Stat needs his athletic advantage to be effective.


Pau had Kobe which is why he won rings. The other poster brought up Bynum to point out how it makes Pau's defense look better not comparing how many more rings he has.

Comparing Pau's rings to Amare's rings is like comparing apples and oranges.


I have to agree with Nalod here. Pau took a mediocre team and turned it into a championship-level team. Maybe Amare hasn't had the same opportunity but that doesn't mean you should ignore what Pau did. Amare has had the very rare privilege of playing with a 2 time league MVP and several all-stars.

I don't know if you are kidding or if you are serious. Are you suggesting Pau is the reason the Lakers won championships?

The reason? There's no such thing as "the reason" a team wins a championship. You seem stuck in "single causality" thinking. He was the biggest change by far though in the team's transformation from mediocrity to championship level, though.

There you go arguing semantics again. Ok, let me put it to you this way; who was the best player on the Lakers?

Cause when you say "Pau took a mediocre team and turned it into a championship-level team," it seems like you are saying he is the best player on that team and not Kobe.

Regarding Amare, look at Phoenix's record this season. Compare their record to last season. Where was the two time MVP? Not that valuable without Amare was he?

Your comment would be justifiable if I were arguing Amare did not help his team. But I'm not. Of course he did and of course the team is worse without him.

The two time MVP player won 14 less games minus Amare which proves that he is not as valuable without Amare. Where is your "he was the biggest change" theory when discussing Amare? You used it for Pau right? Which means "Amare has had the rare privilege" is not a fair statement according to your logic. He averaged 26 points that year. He scored 37ppg in the playoff series when Duncan was guarding him! He was not the reason the Suns didn't win a championship.

Regarding the two-time MVP, he's old and slow now. Those awards were from 5 and 6 seasons ago.

His numbers have not gone down! He is still averaging 15ppg and 11apg. Old and slow my ass. Put him next to Amare and he still wins over 50 games!! And why would you take into consideration that it was 5 years ago for Nash when you want to hold Amare to a higher standard? Amare was also very young and just coming back from a knee surgery 4 or 5 years ago!

Losing Amare was the biggest change in the Suns drop in performance (as I already indicated). They did also shortly into the season lose their best scorer in Jason Richardson, though, and that was a significant secondary loss.

What you seem to be misunderstanding about Pau is that the mediocre .500 Lakers team already had Kobe. Getting Pau was the biggest change when the team went from mediocrity to championship level.


I am not misunderstanding that at all but you cannot form an opinion based on one season. If you want to, then take a look at what happened to Phoenix after Amare left. That collapse is just as drastic as the Lakers resurgence. So should they cancel each other out? Amare outperformed Pau last year and thats what the rankings in this thread are based on.

Where are you getting the "one season" idea from? The Lakers went from mediocre to championship level for several years. There's no way the two examples are equally dramatic. How many teams have lost multiple key players and then lost 14 more games than the previous season? Many. How many teams after one new acquisition have gone from mediocre deep into the season to championship level for three straight years? Regarding last year, Pau was either comparable to or significantly outperformed (rebounds and assist:turnover ratio) Amare in all categories except PPG, which can be attributed to field goal attempts.

So going by that you believe that Pau is better than Dirk because that applies to Dirk as well!

Also, Amare had more blocks than Pau and has significantly more ppg than Pau. Amare doesn't have as many people to pass to so he averages one less assist a game than Pau! Also, being the main scoring thread Amare has to run forward so that he can be in a better position to score while Pau can stand back and rebound and Kobe can score so he gets only 2 more rebounds per game than Amare. Amare has more ppg and blocks per game but Pau is better because he can pass to Kobe and he can stand back and rebound while Kobe scores. It is amazing how much you dislike Amare. I know you wanted Bosh but come on now!


Pau had a better regular season than Dirk did last year.

So Pau is better than Dirk? He is not and everyone knows it. Dirk only has one ring, Pau has two. By your logic, Pau is better than him because he is also a significantly better rebounder than Dirk.
Regarding the Amare-Pau comparison I'll add the following: Pau is clearly the more efficient offensive player. He shoots a higher percentage and has a much better assist:turnover ratio (you brought up just assists but I've been talking about the assist:turnover ratio, as that's more relevant to offensive efficiency and effectiveness). And Amare's assist:turnover ratio was very bad even in Phoenix when he was privileged to have several all-stars to pass to. Pau is more efficient on offense, a significantly better rebounder, and the blocked shots are quite close although Amare does get a small edge there. Amare when healthy is a very good player. I'm not criticizing him here; I'm just comparing him to a more efficient player with a better track record.

We aren't debating who is the more efficient offensive player. Amare has more turnovers because he has to carry the offensive load. Since he has to score more often than Pau, his assists are lower too! Amare shoots 50% from the field. Thats because the defense is focused on stopping him. Pau shoots 53% when he is being defended man to man. Not that much better at all! Especially since Amare scored 7 more points per game with that FG%! Also, call it what it is man. Pau wasn't a significantly better rebounder than Amare was last year. Kevin Love was a significantly better rebounder. Pau averaged only 2 more assists a game!

Now I think you're just trying to be obnoxious, as you're either arguing against statements I never made or raising points I've already addressed.
Silverfuel
Posts: 31750
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 6/27/2002
Member: #268
USA
11/27/2011  8:50 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
Silverfuel wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Silverfuel wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Silverfuel wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Silverfuel wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Silverfuel wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Silverfuel wrote:
Nalod wrote:
nixluva wrote:Gasol? I just can't see how this guy is ahead of Melo and STAT. Gasol is VERY good, but i'd have to put him behind Melo and STAT. Gasol has shriveled in big situations at times IMO. He's gotten GREAT support from being on a stacked team.

Pau has had put himself in more big moments than Stat.

He still has two rings and Bynum was not always there.

Lets hope Stat's back holds. Otherwise he is a bloated contract.

Stat needs his athletic advantage to be effective.


Pau had Kobe which is why he won rings. The other poster brought up Bynum to point out how it makes Pau's defense look better not comparing how many more rings he has.

Comparing Pau's rings to Amare's rings is like comparing apples and oranges.


I have to agree with Nalod here. Pau took a mediocre team and turned it into a championship-level team. Maybe Amare hasn't had the same opportunity but that doesn't mean you should ignore what Pau did. Amare has had the very rare privilege of playing with a 2 time league MVP and several all-stars.

I don't know if you are kidding or if you are serious. Are you suggesting Pau is the reason the Lakers won championships?

The reason? There's no such thing as "the reason" a team wins a championship. You seem stuck in "single causality" thinking. He was the biggest change by far though in the team's transformation from mediocrity to championship level, though.

There you go arguing semantics again. Ok, let me put it to you this way; who was the best player on the Lakers?

Cause when you say "Pau took a mediocre team and turned it into a championship-level team," it seems like you are saying he is the best player on that team and not Kobe.

Regarding Amare, look at Phoenix's record this season. Compare their record to last season. Where was the two time MVP? Not that valuable without Amare was he?

Your comment would be justifiable if I were arguing Amare did not help his team. But I'm not. Of course he did and of course the team is worse without him.

The two time MVP player won 14 less games minus Amare which proves that he is not as valuable without Amare. Where is your "he was the biggest change" theory when discussing Amare? You used it for Pau right? Which means "Amare has had the rare privilege" is not a fair statement according to your logic. He averaged 26 points that year. He scored 37ppg in the playoff series when Duncan was guarding him! He was not the reason the Suns didn't win a championship.

Regarding the two-time MVP, he's old and slow now. Those awards were from 5 and 6 seasons ago.

His numbers have not gone down! He is still averaging 15ppg and 11apg. Old and slow my ass. Put him next to Amare and he still wins over 50 games!! And why would you take into consideration that it was 5 years ago for Nash when you want to hold Amare to a higher standard? Amare was also very young and just coming back from a knee surgery 4 or 5 years ago!

Losing Amare was the biggest change in the Suns drop in performance (as I already indicated). They did also shortly into the season lose their best scorer in Jason Richardson, though, and that was a significant secondary loss.

What you seem to be misunderstanding about Pau is that the mediocre .500 Lakers team already had Kobe. Getting Pau was the biggest change when the team went from mediocrity to championship level.


I am not misunderstanding that at all but you cannot form an opinion based on one season. If you want to, then take a look at what happened to Phoenix after Amare left. That collapse is just as drastic as the Lakers resurgence. So should they cancel each other out? Amare outperformed Pau last year and thats what the rankings in this thread are based on.

Where are you getting the "one season" idea from? The Lakers went from mediocre to championship level for several years. There's no way the two examples are equally dramatic. How many teams have lost multiple key players and then lost 14 more games than the previous season? Many. How many teams after one new acquisition have gone from mediocre deep into the season to championship level for three straight years? Regarding last year, Pau was either comparable to or significantly outperformed (rebounds and assist:turnover ratio) Amare in all categories except PPG, which can be attributed to field goal attempts.

So going by that you believe that Pau is better than Dirk because that applies to Dirk as well!

Also, Amare had more blocks than Pau and has significantly more ppg than Pau. Amare doesn't have as many people to pass to so he averages one less assist a game than Pau! Also, being the main scoring thread Amare has to run forward so that he can be in a better position to score while Pau can stand back and rebound and Kobe can score so he gets only 2 more rebounds per game than Amare. Amare has more ppg and blocks per game but Pau is better because he can pass to Kobe and he can stand back and rebound while Kobe scores. It is amazing how much you dislike Amare. I know you wanted Bosh but come on now!


Pau had a better regular season than Dirk did last year.

So Pau is better than Dirk? He is not and everyone knows it. Dirk only has one ring, Pau has two. By your logic, Pau is better than him because he is also a significantly better rebounder than Dirk.
Regarding the Amare-Pau comparison I'll add the following: Pau is clearly the more efficient offensive player. He shoots a higher percentage and has a much better assist:turnover ratio (you brought up just assists but I've been talking about the assist:turnover ratio, as that's more relevant to offensive efficiency and effectiveness). And Amare's assist:turnover ratio was very bad even in Phoenix when he was privileged to have several all-stars to pass to. Pau is more efficient on offense, a significantly better rebounder, and the blocked shots are quite close although Amare does get a small edge there. Amare when healthy is a very good player. I'm not criticizing him here; I'm just comparing him to a more efficient player with a better track record.

We aren't debating who is the more efficient offensive player. Amare has more turnovers because he has to carry the offensive load. Since he has to score more often than Pau, his assists are lower too! Amare shoots 50% from the field. Thats because the defense is focused on stopping him. Pau shoots 53% when he is being defended man to man. Not that much better at all! Especially since Amare scored 7 more points per game with that FG%! Also, call it what it is man. Pau wasn't a significantly better rebounder than Amare was last year. Kevin Love was a significantly better rebounder. Pau averaged only 2 more assists a game!

Now I think you're just trying to be obnoxious, as you're either arguing against statements I never made or raising points I've already addressed.

Wow, this back and forth has degraded to name calling. All right buddy, Pau is better.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
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