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Players go for decertification
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BasketballJones
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11/14/2011  6:53 PM
https:// It's not so hard.
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BasketballJones
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11/14/2011  7:00 PM
https:// It's not so hard.
FrenchKnicks
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11/14/2011  7:14 PM
Players are so DUMB, I'm glad they aren't going earn any paycheck this year. Good for them... AH AH !!
Childs2Dudley
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11/14/2011  8:02 PM
These players will rue the day they made this decision.
"Our attitude toward life determines life's attitude towards us." - Earl Nightingale
CrushAlot
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11/14/2011  8:22 PM
This deal was too close and it was too much of a victory for the owners for them not to bend a bit on some of the system issues after the players agreed to the 50-50 BRI split in my opinion. I think the rigidity that the players faced when they attempted to negotiate and the constant spewing of talking points by Stern pushed them to this point. Several days ago Larry Coon wrote an article detailing why decertification might work for the players. He covered a lot including the owners options if this happened etc. Here is a bit of Coon's article:
Decertification owes its power to the uneasy truce between labor laws and antitrust laws. The antitrust laws prevent employers from banding together to restrain competition. For example, if all the banks in a city agreed that they would not pay their tellers more than $30,000 per year, it would almost certainly be an illegal case of "price fixing." Likewise, if the banks laid off all their tellers and refused to rehire them unless they agreed to take a pay cut to $30,000, it would almost certainly be an illegal "group boycott." These types of agreements -- which restrain competition -- are addressed by the antitrust laws.

However, collective bargaining encourages the very type of behavior that the antitrust laws make illegal. To resolve this inherent conflict, there is something called the "non-statutory labor exemption," which shields collective bargaining agreements from attack under antitrust law. This protection extends even after the agreement expires -- so long as a bargaining relationship continues to exist.

Here's the key to the whole process: This bargaining relationship continues to exist as long as the union is in place. If the players dissolve the union, the bargaining relationship dissolves with it. Without the bargaining relationship, the league is no longer shielded from antitrust laws.

Much of the economic structure of the NBA -- such as the salary cap, maximum salaries, rookie-scale salaries and the luxury tax -- could be challenged under the antitrust laws as a form of price fixing if there was no union. The lockout itself could be challenged as a group boycott.

In many normal businesses, employers fight unionization and would be thrilled if the employees decided to get rid of their union. But in the sports world, employers benefit from the existence of the union -- so the employees can use the dissolution of the union as a threat.

So far the NBA players have kept the dispute within the realm of labor law by continuing to negotiate as a union. If the players dissolve the union -- either by decertifying or through a related process called a disclaimer of interest -- they surrender their collective bargaining rights, lift the shield of protection provided by the non-statutory labor exemption, and shift the venue from labor law to antitrust law.

After decertifying, the players could then bring an antitrust suit against the league, challenge any rules that constitute a restraint of trade, and ask the court to end the lockout. They could also seek treble (triple the amount) damages -- up to $6 billion per year. The odds of winning are not 100 percent certain (they never are), but the risk to the owners would be enormous. Such a case could take years to resolve.

Once the union decertifies, the collective bargaining process would be over -- there literally would be no union with which the owners could negotiate. Billy Hunter, Derek Fisher and the other players on the executive committee would no longer be in charge -- as a practical matter, control would pass to attorneys. The players also could not reassemble the union for one year without the league's consent. However, such consent obviously would be granted if the two sides eventually cut a deal.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/decertification-111104/nba-decertification-threat-strong-message

I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
jazz74
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11/14/2011  8:35 PM
well, though i definitely blame both, i blame the owners so much more. this is unbelievable. i guess my only nba will be nba 2k12.
TymeLessKnicks
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11/14/2011  8:44 PM
idiots. this is not your league. practice hard, play hard, become a star, get your shoe deal...etc
Had enough Melo?
Moonangie
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11/14/2011  9:01 PM
TymeLessKnicks wrote:idiots. this is not your league. practice hard, play hard, become a star, get your shoe deal...etc

It's not the owners' league, either. They have a business arrangement that is mutually dependent. Not to mention, it's our league as well, since we invest a lot of money and (more importantly) interest in seeing it succeed.

The owners failed here to provide an acceptable deal, even after they had basically raped the players on BRI. So they were intent on being hard asses and they will now reap what they sowed. The players will lose a year or more of income, and the owners will lose a huge amount of interest and audience. It will cost them a lot to make that back.

On a more positive note: At least Dolan wasn't one of the *******s in this deal. He would have been MUCH more fair to the players as he has never quibbled about money. Just giving him some props, since he usually deserves ridicule.

Childs2Dudley
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11/14/2011  9:54 PM
The owners pay to keep the league afloat so it is their league.
"Our attitude toward life determines life's attitude towards us." - Earl Nightingale
nixluva
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11/14/2011  10:45 PM
What do the owners actually own now without players? All the value of their franchises is gone without the product on the floor! Where do the owners go to replace the unique talents of the best players in the world? You think fans will pay anything close to the big ticket prices the owners charge for scabs?

It's silly to treat the players like the staff at a real business. While I don't think the players should've done this I also think the owners should've made sure it never came to this. That is a colossal blunder on their part. They spent a ton on their franchie and saw the values reach great highs only to scuttle all that hard work and investment and for what?

Childs2Dudley
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11/14/2011  11:52 PM
How many times are we going to discuss the same exact thing over and over again?

The current business model is broken. It needed to be changed. The owners wanted to change it. They did. The players don't like it because of being spoiled with the best CBA in sports (outside MLB) all these years. That's too damn bad. This economy is awful and teams are in the red. Changes needed to be made; radical ones. They were made. Players said no, we'll sue you and try to win our freedom. Too bad no court would ever rule in their favor.

"Our attitude toward life determines life's attitude towards us." - Earl Nightingale
tkf
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11/15/2011  12:30 AM
DurzoBlint wrote:you guys realize that there is absolutely NO blueprint for how thin will turn out. It could be more than one season at risk.

Those small market teams think they have attendance problems now.....more than a season off will see many teams totally fail due to apathy.

Also, if Stern succeeds in Voiding contracts, the NBA landscape (roster) wise can end up totally different from now. You think your happy with the idea of Melo & Amare...well if contracts get voided, it changes the game.

Say Dwight being a free agent once the lockout is resolved says: "Hey Amare, come join me in LA?" You think Amare doesn't seriously consider....New York Loyalty or no New York Loyalty. Then Amare call up Melo and is like "I know you like that whole coming home thing but, I'm signing in LA to play with Dwight, you should roll with us."

Melo, then after thinking it through decides, wifey can market herself just as well in LA as NY.


That is my current fear, that the desertification will change everything.

great, let those guys go to LA, what have they won, we can then work on lebron and getting gallo back..... get the team we should have had in the start.. I am fine with that.. LOL

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
tkf
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11/15/2011  12:41 AM
Childs2Dudley wrote:How many times are we going to discuss the same exact thing over and over again?

The current business model is broken. It needed to be changed. The owners wanted to change it. They did. The players don't like it because of being spoiled with the best CBA in sports (outside MLB) all these years. That's too damn bad. This economy is awful and teams are in the red. Changes needed to be made; radical ones. They were made. Players said no, we'll sue you and try to win our freedom. Too bad no court would ever rule in their favor.

exactly, it is pretty simple... not hard to grasp at all....

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
SupremeCommander
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11/15/2011  12:46 AM
Childs2Dudley wrote:Too bad no court would ever rule in their favor.

I have no idea if this is true or false... source?

DLeethal wrote: Lol Rick needs a safe space
nixluva
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11/15/2011  12:46 AM
Childs2Dudley wrote:How many times are we going to discuss the same exact thing over and over again?

The current business model is broken. It needed to be changed. The owners wanted to change it. They did. The players don't like it because of being spoiled with the best CBA in sports (outside MLB) all these years. That's too damn bad. This economy is awful and teams are in the red. Changes needed to be made; radical ones. They were made. Players said no, we'll sue you and try to win our freedom. Too bad no court would ever rule in their favor.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that the players from the start had conceded salary and at the end had accepted a 50/50 share!!! Nevermind the fact that the owners always win these CBA battles and they agreed to the 57% share for the players and did so with no arm twisting by the players. The owners agreed to that CBA with all the financial info and predictions good or bad! Remember the owners are the businessmen in this relationship. Now they're going at the players with anger and threats as if it was the players that somehow tricked them into creating the last CBA! Come on man, you can't be that anti worker that you refuse to see this! Please don't tell me that it's jealousy or you resent the players making good money!

Are we to shed a tear when billionaire businessmen mess up a business that they control and dictate the rules in? Plus how can u characterize these billionaire owners as "losing their shirts"? Do you realize how silly that sounds? 300 mil spread over 30 teams won't bankrupt billionaires!!! And I remind you they did this to themselves.

y2zipper
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11/15/2011  2:46 AM
It really doesn't matter who's wrong and who's right here. Heck, I really don't support either side in particular but I will come back to basketball because I'm a fan and because I understand collective bargaining. The negotiation is about one thing: leverage. Whoever has the leverage wins the negotiation.

The players don't have leverage or options. They can't start their own league. They can't go overseas. They can't recover any of the money. All they can do is threaten to take the NBA to court through this disclaimer of interest, but it won't matter.

Big market owners who are making a profit, like Cuban, Dolan and the guy who owns the Heat have more leverage than the players do. These guys want to get a deal done and want to avoid the lawsuits because the current system benefits these guys.

The guys with the leverage right now are the small-market owners who want to control player movement. These guys are losing money that they get to keep if there's no season so the lawsuits don't scare them.

The players believe that revenue sharing will take care of this (and it might), but revenue sharing comes with a harder salary cap because a hard salary cap is beneficial to every team. It benefits small market owners because everyone competes with the same money and it benefits big market owners because an Owner like Jerry Buss doesn't have to spend 90 million on his team if there's a hard cap.

The systematic issues are much more important to the owners and players than the BRI. On the BRI front, both sides wills say that they conceded. The players conceded to 50 percent from 57, and the owners conceded from 53 to 50 if you ask them. Ultimately the BRI doesn't really matter.

The bottom line is that this should have at least gone to a vote. Simply put, the only chance the players have is if they win an antitrust lawsuit and that doesn't seem likely. It's a huge gamble because the owners get to write their own CBA if the owners win the lawsuit.

Childs2Dudley
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11/15/2011  4:25 AM
SupremeCommander wrote:
Childs2Dudley wrote:Too bad no court would ever rule in their favor.

I have no idea if this is true or false... source?

NBA hasn't violated any labor or anti-trust laws.

Past cases involving this.

NFL went the way of disclaimer of interest and tried to get a judge to lift the lockout. It was eventually decided that the judge did not have the power to end the NFL lockout. This caused the players to return to the bargaining table and an agreement came together quickly after the players had lost the last leverage they had. This will play out the same.

"Our attitude toward life determines life's attitude towards us." - Earl Nightingale
SupremeCommander
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11/15/2011  5:06 AM
Childs2Dudley wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:
Childs2Dudley wrote:Too bad no court would ever rule in their favor.

I have no idea if this is true or false... source?

NBA hasn't violated any labor or anti-trust laws.

Past cases involving this.

NFL went the way of disclaimer of interest and tried to get a judge to lift the lockout. It was eventually decided that the judge did not have the power to end the NFL lockout. This caused the players to return to the bargaining table and an agreement came together quickly after the players had lost the last leverage they had. This will play out the same.

Thank you.

I have read that NBA players are more likely to win than the NFL players, whatever that means (still doesn't imply that it is likely they'll win).

I also saw the NBA filed a lawuit claiming the players were using decertification as a neogtiating tactic, whatever that means.

DLeethal wrote: Lol Rick needs a safe space
loweyecue
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11/15/2011  6:38 AM
Childs2Dudley wrote:How many times are we going to discuss the same exact thing over and over again?

The current business model is broken. It needed to be changed. The owners wanted to change it. They did. The players don't like it because of being spoiled with the best CBA in sports (outside MLB) all these years. That's too damn bad. This economy is awful and teams are in the red. Changes needed to be made; radical ones. They were made. Players said no, we'll sue you and try to win our freedom. Too bad no court would ever rule in their favor.

I think that's a good summary. The lawsuits will be expensive to both sides but eventually more damaging to the players. Only the lawyers make out in this arrangement.

TKF on Melo ::....he is a punk, a jerk, a self absorbed out of shape, self aggrandizing, unprofessional, volume chucking coach killing playoff loser!!
DurzoBlint
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11/15/2011  7:34 AM
tkf wrote:
DurzoBlint wrote:you guys realize that there is absolutely NO blueprint for how thin will turn out. It could be more than one season at risk.

Those small market teams think they have attendance problems now.....more than a season off will see many teams totally fail due to apathy.

Also, if Stern succeeds in Voiding contracts, the NBA landscape (roster) wise can end up totally different from now. You think your happy with the idea of Melo & Amare...well if contracts get voided, it changes the game.

Say Dwight being a free agent once the lockout is resolved says: "Hey Amare, come join me in LA?" You think Amare doesn't seriously consider....New York Loyalty or no New York Loyalty. Then Amare call up Melo and is like "I know you like that whole coming home thing but, I'm signing in LA to play with Dwight, you should roll with us."

Melo, then after thinking it through decides, wifey can market herself just as well in LA as NY.


That is my current fear, that the desertification will change everything.

great, let those guys go to LA, what have they won, we can then work on lebron and getting gallo back..... get the team we should have had in the start.. I am fine with that.. LOL

your taking it too literal. I just used that to show that it could have a greater domino effect than people are projecting.

the fact that you can't even have an unrelated thread without some tool here bringing him up make me think that rational minds are few and far between. Bunch of emotionally weak, angst riddled people. I mean, how many times can you argue the same shyt
Players go for decertification

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