Markji wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Markji wrote:OK Jrod, here is someone with a little more intelligence speaking up for the Wall St protesters. The wealthy don't want their control of the system impinged upon in any way.
Note: Paul Krugman won the Nobel Prize in Economics (2008) and graduated from JFK High School in Bellemore, Long Island. He is a New Yorker!

Panic of the Plutocrats
By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: October 9, 2011

It remains to be seen whether the Occupy Wall Street protests will change America’s direction. Yet the protests have already elicited a remarkably hysterical reaction from Wall Street, the super-rich in general, and politicians and pundits who reliably serve the interests of the wealthiest hundredth of a percent.

And this reaction tells you something important — namely, that the extremists threatening American values are what F.D.R. called “economic royalists,” not the people camping in Zuccotti Park.

This special treatment can’t bear close scrutiny — and therefore, as they see it, there must be no close scrutiny. Anyone who points out the obvious, no matter how calmly and moderately, must be demonized and driven from the stage. In fact, the more reasonable and moderate a critic sounds, the more urgently he or she must be demonized, hence the frantic sliming of Elizabeth Warren.

So who’s really being un-American here? Not the protesters, who are simply trying to get their voices heard. No, the real extremists here are America’s oligarchs, who want to suppress any criticism of the sources of their wealth.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/10/opinion/panic-of-the-plutocrats.html?_r=2&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha212

And where in this intelligent article does it show what the agenda is? How does the "rigged system" get fixed? I listen to the audio of the protests every morning. They're given mics by news sources all over the country, and they still say nothing. They're yelling and moving from site to site, and no one ever talks about what the goal is, or what they're trying to achieve. All they know and keep saying is there are rich people who should pay more taxes. And the police are overreacting by arresting some of them. Oh yeah, and stop the war.

Yes, they're are rich people who make money off evil hedge funds and CDO's. CDO's, by the way, that were instruments backed by "individuals" who were happy to get into a mortgage that there was no way in hell they could afford. And the institutions were bailed out by your POTUS and TARP funds that were authorized by your current administration. Which your current taxpayers voted in.

The real criticism is that America's oligarch's are rich. And the protester's are not. Funny, where was Occupy Wall Street 4-5 years ago before the market collapsed, and all these mortgage-backed CDO's went into default? It's funny, I don't recall any "Occupy Wall Street" protests when Merrill Lynch was trading in the 90's... It would be interesting to see how many of these fine young protesters were day trading a few years ago...

And quoting FDR about economic royalists when FDR was an economic royalist is tremendously brilliant. NY Times. Fair. Balanced. Objective.

Well, at long last you finally admit that the system is rigged! That is the basic message of the protesters.

Krugman has written numerous articles on how to fix it. Do your homework; look it up and get a balanced view. Many others including people dealing in the financial markets have written as well. The Big Banks and Financial Markets do need to be regulated but their money and influence stops action against them. Buying off politicians with large campaigm contributions. FOX News, owned, run and controlled by Rupert Murdoch influences people by presenting very lopsided information and spouts emotional rhetoric. Etc.

Moonangie and Martin's comments are good and insightful.

Moonangie - Actually, it was Bush who authorized the bailout, and it was the Bush Administrations lack of oversight and focus on deregulation and unbridled greed that laid the foundation for the bubble and subsequent financial calamity. Obama had to deal with it, that's true. But like so many Fox news acolytes, you have your facts confused with your fictions.

It may not be focused or have an articulated message at this point, but it's still political activism aimed at the Wall Street-to-K-Street "fix" that millions of Americans believe has disenfranchised them from something they deserved: Opportunity.

Yes, and Bush caused the TARP funds and bush hired a Treasury Secretary who doesn't pay his own taxes, and Bush caused 911 and Bush caused the holocaust. Please, you're as unbalanced as you say Fox is.

Opportunity/NYTimes Code word: entitlement.

Bippity10 wrote:Democrats, Republicans and Big business all work together to keep each other in power and in the money. Republicans have been great about communicating to the upper middle class and making them believe that they are out for them, when in reality their decisions are being made by the super rich. Democrats have done a wonderful job of communicating to the middle class and below and making them believe that they are out for them. In the end, no matter who is in power, our standard of living decreases. One day, we will all get this, stop believing these two parties, become an independent and make both parties earn our votes.

-The new and improved, kinder and genter, sweeter and less sarcastic, Bipman

Markji wrote:
If you are referring to me where in the f***king world did you pick this up. Or ever hear me say any of this. You are getting too overheated. Just take a deep breath, relax, meditate or take a Prozac. Really. It's too much!

Hyperbole and conjecture from the rodman. Sigh. You are better than that bro! I can tell you be thinkin' 'n' stuff but you don't have to be the forum's Rush Limbaugh to prove your point. In fact, what a great way to totally discredit your point of view. But I know you are all Clint Eastwood with yours.

martin wrote:

jrodmc wrote:The real criticism is that America's oligarch's are rich. And the protester's are not.

this is about as least informed as it comes.

Very meaty post, martin. And how would you inform me about the subtleties involved in this?

Bippity10 wrote:I understand the protestors frustration and agree that there is some craziness happening on Wall Street that someone needs to pay for (Bear Stearns,Naked short selling etc). That being said, I'm not sure how you have a legitimate protest, without a focused message. If you are a "fat cat banker" with a heart how can you fight to change a system for people when you have no idea what they are complaining about. "Corporate Greed", "fat cat bankers", "lazy protestors", "college slackers", "throw wall streeters in jail". It's basically just people whining about each other. It doesn't get to the heart of the problem at all. Without a focused message how are the "corporate fat cats" going to get any type of message?

Personally I think the protests should start on wall street and finish at the white house (not just Obama, but all the politicians in power) who talk a great game but continue their alliance. Democrats, Republicans and Big business all work together to keep each other in power and in the money. Republicans have been great about communicating to the upper middle class and making them believe that they are out for them, when in reality their decisions are being made by the super rich. Democrats have done a wonderful job of communicating to the middle class and below and making them believe that they are out for them. In the end, no matter who is in power, our standard of living decreases. One day, we will all get this, stop believing these two parties, become an independent and make both parties earn our votes.

-The new and improved, kinder and genter, sweeter and less sarcastic, Bipman

Amen Bipster! You're probably still throwing rocks at small baby animals though.

You didn't appear to finish your sentence on Democrats, however. Who's really making the decisions for the Democrats. Hmmmmmm.
I actually voted independent in the last two elections, by the way. Unfortunately, we are as pragmatic a society as they come. Nobody wants to "waste their vote" on someone "who won't win".

Markji wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:Democrats, Republicans and Big business all work together to keep each other in power and in the money. Republicans have been great about communicating to the upper middle class and making them believe that they are out for them, when in reality their decisions are being made by the super rich. Democrats have done a wonderful job of communicating to the middle class and below and making them believe that they are out for them. In the end, no matter who is in power, our standard of living decreases. One day, we will all get this, stop believing these two parties, become an independent and make both parties earn our votes.

-The new and improved, kinder and genter, sweeter and less sarcastic, Bipman

Hey Bip, I am also an independent, and stand with you on this.

We have been, and always will be, brothers to the core!

jrodmc wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:I understand the protestors frustration and agree that there is some craziness happening on Wall Street that someone needs to pay for (Bear Stearns,Naked short selling etc). That being said, I'm not sure how you have a legitimate protest, without a focused message. If you are a "fat cat banker" with a heart how can you fight to change a system for people when you have no idea what they are complaining about. "Corporate Greed", "fat cat bankers", "lazy protestors", "college slackers", "throw wall streeters in jail". It's basically just people whining about each other. It doesn't get to the heart of the problem at all. Without a focused message how are the "corporate fat cats" going to get any type of message?

Personally I think the protests should start on wall street and finish at the white house (not just Obama, but all the politicians in power) who talk a great game but continue their alliance. Democrats, Republicans and Big business all work together to keep each other in power and in the money. Republicans have been great about communicating to the upper middle class and making them believe that they are out for them, when in reality their decisions are being made by the super rich. Democrats have done a wonderful job of communicating to the middle class and below and making them believe that they are out for them. In the end, no matter who is in power, our standard of living decreases. One day, we will all get this, stop believing these two parties, become an independent and make both parties earn our votes.

-The new and improved, kinder and genter, sweeter and less sarcastic, Bipman

Amen Bipster! You're probably still throwing rocks at small baby animals though.

You didn't appear to finish your sentence on Democrats, however. Who's really making the decisions for the Democrats. Hmmmmmm.
I actually voted independent in the last two elections, by the way. Unfortunately, we are as pragmatic a society as they come. Nobody wants to "waste their vote" on someone "who won't win".

The Democrats are the exact same. If you really follow the trail of money they are no differetn then the Republicans. They're just good at throwing a bone our way every now and then to make it look like they are affecting change for us. Meanwhile some really odd stuff went down with Bear Stearns that played a part in our collapse and yet neither Republican or Democrat has done anything about it. Some odd stuff went on with Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac yet they continue to operate as usual, losing billions. Our home values have all gone in the crapper because of our actions. Yet, little has changed for them. The common thread in all this, is that government did nothing to regulate, stop, fix or prevent. Yet we all take our Republican/Democrat sides, root for "our team" to win, defend "our team" regardless of their actions/inactions, blast the "opposing team" at all costs, and they just laugh at us. They all go back to the safety of Washington and count their own money, all the while your life gets no better. But you do get to have fun arguing in chat rooms about which "team" the Republicans or Democrats are going to win the title next election.

DrAlphaeus wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:I understand the protestors frustration and agree that there is some craziness happening on Wall Street that someone needs to pay for (Bear Stearns,Naked short selling etc). That being said, I'm not sure how you have a legitimate protest, without a focused message. If you are a "fat cat banker" with a heart how can you fight to change a system for people when you have no idea what they are complaining about. "Corporate Greed", "fat cat bankers", "lazy protestors", "college slackers", "throw wall streeters in jail". It's basically just people whining about each other. It doesn't get to the heart of the problem at all. Without a focused message how are the "corporate fat cats" going to get any type of message?

Personally I think the protests should start on wall street and finish at the white house (not just Obama, but all the politicians in power) who talk a great game but continue their alliance. Democrats, Republicans and Big business all work together to keep each other in power and in the money. Republicans have been great about communicating to the upper middle class and making them believe that they are out for them, when in reality their decisions are being made by the super rich. Democrats have done a wonderful job of communicating to the middle class and below and making them believe that they are out for them. In the end, no matter who is in power, our standard of living decreases. One day, we will all get this, stop believing these two parties, become an independent and make both parties earn our votes.

-The new and improved, kinder and genter, sweeter and less sarcastic, Bipman

Amen Bipster! You're probably still throwing rocks at small baby animals though.

You didn't appear to finish your sentence on Democrats, however. Who's really making the decisions for the Democrats. Hmmmmmm.
I actually voted independent in the last two elections, by the way. Unfortunately, we are as pragmatic a society as they come. Nobody wants to "waste their vote" on someone "who won't win".

I voted Nader in 2000 in NJ, then Bush v. Gore happened, so I had to rethink my "they are the same thing" motto fell flat, because would President Gore have done all the stuff Bush did that I disagreed with? Maybe a lot of it, but probably not all. So I think a lot of "liberals" with 8 long years to think about that were primed for Obama and his "Change" message. He's the first political candidate I've ever donated money to. Now? I'm totally cold on him. Even when I vote for Democrats, luckily I can vote for them on the Working Families line here in NY so hopefully that's sending a message? But I kind of wish US voters were more principled vs. pragmatic. Maybe it's so hard to do in such a large country. When you really talk about issues with thoughtful people, we certainly don't fit in two boxes, that's for sure. I'm socially liberal but this self-employment tax is a killer! I'm a lower-middle-class black atheist self-employed tech worker... who really gives a damn about my vote? Democrats pander to me, Republicans rather I don't exist.

I feel you brother. I consider myself a slightly above middle class black business owner. I've worked my ass off. I spent about 8 years working 17 hour days. I almost went bankrupt, almost lost my wife and had health issues. I have strong beliefs about what you need to do to get ahead. I do not pay attention to what letter is in front of a guys name before I vote. I think that is ridiculous. I learn what they believe in and I vote accordingly. I've learned that I lean democrat but have no problem voting republican. I want them to earn my vote. Voting for one party en masse is just a guarantee that this party will throw some bones your way to keep you happy but not actually do anything for you.

TheGame wrote:That is the truth. Although I most vote Democrat, I agree with the Republicans on alot of things. I do think we need to control the size of government and we need to balance the budget. However, the fundamental disagreement I have is that rich people should not be allowed to exploit the middle class and poor. The whole Reganomics and other ideas Republicans promote are nothing more than attempts to let rich people keep more of their money. Why in the world would a millionaire have a lower effective tax rate than a person make $40K a year. Why would you give millionaires even more tax breaks under some idiotic notion that they are the "job creators?"" The job creators are the working-class people that have to spend 100% of their income buying consumer goods in this country. That money they spend increases profits which in turn allow for the creation of more jobs. If you want to create jobs then start giving tax breaks to those companies that do not move their jobs overseas. There are over 1 million call-center jobs alone that companies have moved overseas. Give those companies a tax break to bring those jobs back to American and you can create 1 million jobs within a year or so just from that. The government also needs to tax more of the money American companies make overseas. There are all kinds of loopholes that the Republicans have put in place that are allowing these rich companies to avoid paying billions in taxes and when the budget cannot get balanced the first thing the Republicans say is to cut medicare and social secutiry benefits to people trying to live on $40K a year. That is something I cannot agree with.

This is another one of those talk a good game, but not really do anything. Obama has gone on and on about closing tax loopholes to help make our lives better but the actual proposal he brought to the table will do very little to cut into the deficit or to allow you to buy that Ipad 2 you've always wanted. It's lipservice. The only candidate really talking about drastic change to the tax code is Herman Cain. Agree or disagree wtih him, at least he is discussing it. The rest are just saying enough to energize their base for the next election(like they do every election). The tax code will remain relatively unchanged. the rich will still have all the loopholes. And you will still be worrying about paying your mortgage/rent/cardboard box insurance.

Bippity10 wrote:

TheGame wrote:That is the truth. Although I most vote Democrat, I agree with the Republicans on alot of things. I do think we need to control the size of government and we need to balance the budget. However, the fundamental disagreement I have is that rich people should not be allowed to exploit the middle class and poor. The whole Reganomics and other ideas Republicans promote are nothing more than attempts to let rich people keep more of their money. Why in the world would a millionaire have a lower effective tax rate than a person make $40K a year. Why would you give millionaires even more tax breaks under some idiotic notion that they are the "job creators?"" The job creators are the working-class people that have to spend 100% of their income buying consumer goods in this country. That money they spend increases profits which in turn allow for the creation of more jobs. If you want to create jobs then start giving tax breaks to those companies that do not move their jobs overseas. There are over 1 million call-center jobs alone that companies have moved overseas. Give those companies a tax break to bring those jobs back to American and you can create 1 million jobs within a year or so just from that. The government also needs to tax more of the money American companies make overseas. There are all kinds of loopholes that the Republicans have put in place that are allowing these rich companies to avoid paying billions in taxes and when the budget cannot get balanced the first thing the Republicans say is to cut medicare and social secutiry benefits to people trying to live on $40K a year. That is something I cannot agree with.

This is another one of those talk a good game, but not really do anything. Obama has gone on and on about closing tax loopholes to help make our lives better but the actual proposal he brought to the table will do very little to cut into the deficit or to allow you to buy that Ipad 2 you've always wanted. It's lipservice. The only candidate really talking about drastic change to the tax code is Herman Cain. Agree or disagree wtih him, at least he is discussing it. The rest are just saying enough to energize their base for the next election(like they do every election). The tax code will remain relatively unchanged. the rich will still have all the loopholes. And you will still be worrying about paying your mortgage/rent/cardboard box insurance.

I am starting to pay more attention to Cain. I am not sold on him yet, but I definitely like him more than the other Republican candidates. I am going to vote for whoever is going to fix our budget and bring about a more fiscally responsible government, but it cannot be accomplished simply by cutting social programs. There has got to be revenue increases. If a candidate is not willing to cut some of these loopholes, then he will not get my support.