nixluva wrote:Let me ask this of all the people that think it's more about the coach than the players. Who do you think made the most impact for the Celtics, KG or Thibs? If you don't have KG you don't have that defensive coach on the floor. He's the engine that made that run. I'm not saying you have to have KG, but if you look at great defensive teams at their heart they have some great defensive talent in order to be a great defensive team. It could be a Ben Wallace and Rasheed or KG and Perkins or more of a good group of defenders that work well as a unit. No matter how you add it up, you can't have a team with no real core of defensive players and just bring in a coach and everything is alright.

For years now the Knicks have had a collection of non defenders. When was the last time we had a C that was strong on defense? As for MDA, his PHX teams were far better on D than this team in NY and a lot of it had to do with the players and player movement in NY. With everyone knowing that certain players had no future here, they simply wouldn't put forth a Max effort on D. It's that simple. To blame the coach for that seems a bit harsh. Especially when those players weren't known as good defenders to begin with.

It seems to me that with a core of STAT and Melo you can't expect defensive excellence. They should be able to improve, but the history of those 2 players on D isn't very good. They aren't KG and Lebron. So we need a solid C and with focus, perhaps Woodson can really help to improve the D. I'm hoping for a realistic 15th in the league if all goes well. To do that this team has to improve it's defensive rating by about 3 pts. Middle of the league is 107 and the Knicks were at 110.

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:Let me ask this of all the people that think it's more about the coach than the players. Who do you think made the most impact for the Celtics, KG or Thibs? If you don't have KG you don't have that defensive coach on the floor. He's the engine that made that run. I'm not saying you have to have KG, but if you look at great defensive teams at their heart they have some great defensive talent in order to be a great defensive team. It could be a Ben Wallace and Rasheed or KG and Perkins or more of a good group of defenders that work well as a unit. No matter how you add it up, you can't have a team with no real core of defensive players and just bring in a coach and everything is alright.

For years now the Knicks have had a collection of non defenders. When was the last time we had a C that was strong on defense? As for MDA, his PHX teams were far better on D than this team in NY and a lot of it had to do with the players and player movement in NY. With everyone knowing that certain players had no future here, they simply wouldn't put forth a Max effort on D. It's that simple. To blame the coach for that seems a bit harsh. Especially when those players weren't known as good defenders to begin with.

It seems to me that with a core of STAT and Melo you can't expect defensive excellence. They should be able to improve, but the history of those 2 players on D isn't very good. They aren't KG and Lebron. So we need a solid C and with focus, perhaps Woodson can really help to improve the D. I'm hoping for a realistic 15th in the league if all goes well. To do that this team has to improve it's defensive rating by about 3 pts. Middle of the league is 107 and the Knicks were at 110.

Yes the players you have make a big difference in your success defensively as a team. However, it is hard to defend this coaches lack of effort in getting his team prepared defensively. The Knicks do not have game day shoot arounds when they are at home and up until this season they did not even have advance scouts scouting opponents during D'Antoni's tenure. The one thing that was a step in the right direction this year is the coach said that players are given a folder that provides information on their opponents tendencies etc.

I can tell you that it wouldn't have mattered one bit if they had advanced scouting with guys like Zach, Jamal, Eddy, Hughes, Harrington, Lee, Nate etc. Do you really think it would turn these guys into great defenders? I don't think that this means that the team didn't do anything at all to prepare for games as some seem to be suggesting.

That 2 previous years before last season were so broken based on the direction the franchise was headed, it really wasn't a situation setup to nurture a team defense. Lots of expiring vets or inexperienced rookies is a tough environment to build a defensive culture in.

My problem with those who are down on MDA is that there seems to be this blindness to the reality of the situation in yr 1&2. There seems to be this notion that they were just like any other normal seasons were your GM is doing everything he can to help the team win and they weren't. Just look at all the different players that have been on this team over the last 3 years. This isn't an official list, but you get the idea. No team has had this many players in the same amount of time.

Wilson Chandler 	Earl Barron              Raymond Felton
Mardy Collins           Jonathan Bender          Carmelo Anthony
Jamal Crawford 	        J. R. Giddens            Amar'e Stoudemire
Eddy Curry              Tony Douglas             Demetris Nichols
Chris Duhon             Eddie House              Darko Milicic
Danilo Gallinari        Tracy McGrady            Courtney Sims
Al Harrington           Sergio Rodríguez         Landry Fields
Larry Hughes            Bill Walker              Mouhamed Sene 
Jerome James            Jordan Hill              Chauncey Billups
Jared Jeffries          Renaldo Balkman          Cheikh, Samb  
David Lee               Andy Rautins             Timofey Mozgov
Zach Randolph           Derrick Brown            Joe Crawford
Quentin Richardson      Anthony Randolph         Chris Wilcox            
Anthony Roberson        Shelden Williams         Ronny Turiaf
Nate Robinson 	        Roger Mason              Tim Thomas              
Malik Rose              Shawne Williams          Anthony Carter

CrushAlot wrote:

Nalod wrote:And a different coach would have all this changed?

And are you sure we don't have scouts?

And are you really thinking that with another coach it would have been different?

And do you really think MDA and Donnie wanted to throw up when they looked at the 5 position?

And you really think MDA really wanted Jeffries?

And you think Moz got run cuz of injury insinuating he was ready to go but MDA kept him back? The dude was a opening game starter!

I think you don't khow if things would have been different if you don't try. I am not neccessarily talking about a different coach but I am talking about the coach doing basic preperation.

Yes I know that the Knicks didn't have advanced scouts D'Antoni's first two years. He was called out by his peers by it and I posted it. When I brought it up again this past season Andrew corrected me and linked me to an article that showed that this past season they did indeed use scouting.

I do think D'Antoni wanted Jeffries. He gave him major minutes in 09-10 and sat Hill even though Hill played ahead of him the entire time they were in Houston. I am not going to pretend to understand the fondness D'Antoni has for certain players like Jeffries and Duhon but in Jeffries case I believe that D'Antoni's relying on him cost the Knicks a playoff victory.

And yes Moz was out of the rotation and on the bench. Randolph and Moz both had good games but Moz blew up. Moz was not getting on the court for about a month and half. You can google it if you don't remember.

And no I don't think Walsh looked at the 5 and wanted to throw up. I think he tried to address the position. He traded for Darko, and drafted Hill. He traded for Turiaff and Randolph and brought in Moz. I think he tried to address the position and I think he tried to find guys that would fit with his coach and his style.

Advanced scouts are only one aspect of how teams prepare for the next opponent. This doesn't mean they didn't have video and breakdowns on the plays that the next opponent use. Clearly the had film sessions where MDA broke down the other team.

The Jeffries thing was simply a matter of versatility and familiarity. If there was a better option they could've added I'm sure Walsh would've tried to do something, but remember that they still wanted to look for an ending contract. The team still has some cap flexibility next year.

CLEARLY MDA really liked Moz. There's not even a need for discussion. He only pulled the kid when he wasn't making progress and was pressing. We all knew it was a matter of time before he got back in there.

We had almost nothing at C. Turiaf was his usual brittle self and once we traded Moz there really wasn't much there. Shelden was OK, but he's not a long term answer. Hill wasn't the answer and Darko wasn't the answer at C. Darko and Hill both messed up their own shot to take the C spot here. Both had to do with poor work attitudes early on. Both should've taken a more serious attitude about having a shot to win a starting C spot in the NBA and they didn't.

AR is no center in the NBA. Don't even........

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:I must be missing the point. When the words you use coincide with your actions and behavior its hard to figure out the point.

with your obvious, blind disdain for MDA, you are missing many points.

Thanks. I will try to be more open minded. I should have recognized that the 28 games Shaq played for D'Antoni prior to his being run out of Phoenix was when he transfromed.

how about this: name all of the traditional bigs in PHO that MDA did not play. That should support your theory.

Crush, crickets?

CrushAlot wrote: The Knicks do not have game day shoot arounds when they are at home and up until this season they did not even have advance scouts scouting opponents durning D'Antoni's tenure.

wow, really, this as a way to criticize him, again? didn't we address the fallacy of this argument ages ago?

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=36670

PresIke wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Childs2Dudley wrote:Stop making a mountain out of a mole hill......

The Knicks have been a lottery team for the last 6 years. I would think as a coach you would any opportunity to help prepare your team and make them end this awful streak. I haven't been happy watching D'Antoni's pained facial expressions while his team has gone 61-99 over the past two years. I maybe in the minority but I believe a coach does play a role in his teams success and I believe that a coach can help his team by preparing for opponents. I would like to see D'Antoni do a bit more to show he is more committed than he has been the last two years.

The Knicks are following the same routine as every other team in the NBA now. It's not a big deal.

The article said about half a dozen teams do this. Not every team. It would be interesting to see where those other 5-6 teams records are and who their coach is. If Jerry Sloan does this I will leave this subject alone.

honestly, this is a pretty poor piece of op-ed writing that distorts the truth of the matter.

you could have done a quick google search rather than assume that this is based in this seemingly fictional sense that d'antoni is lazy or not committed...

the knicks got rid of the morning shoot around last year joining...

The Celtics, Spurs, Wizards, Nuggets and Trailblazers...

and the notion of getting rid of it is based in...

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/20/sports/basketball/20sleep.html

A growing interest in sleep science — and a recognition that players need more time to recharge — is fueling the trend. Simply speaking, N.B.A. players often fail to get enough sleep.

The typical night game ends at about 10 p.m. By the time players shower, dress and speak with the news media, it is close to 11 p.m. They are usually famished, so everyone eats a late dinner. Even the most conservative players — those who do not frequent nightclubs — will not get to sleep until at least 2 a.m. If the team is traveling, players may not reach their hotel until 3 a.m.

For a shoot-around or practice that starts at 10 a.m., players have to arrive as early as 9 a.m. to lift weights, receive treatment or be taped.

“You’re talking about our players functioning on five or six hours of sleep a day,” Rivers said, “and that’s just not good enough.”

Rivers was once a skeptic on the topic. He now speaks like a sleep evangelist.

“If you go three, four, five days in a row with less than six hours of sleep, your reaction time is comparable to that of someone legally drunk,” Rivers said. “You’re trying to play a basketball game where just a 10th of second, a degree off, throws your whole game off.”

So this isn't some silly "let's be lazy" and not prepare the team idea at all. It's based in scientific research about sleep.

Secondly, the article/blog you cite does in fact say that the Knicks are joining the rest of the NBA in terms of having their evening shoot around start at a more commonly used time.

This season the Knicks are dropping the pregame meal and requiring players to be at Madison Square Garden by 6 p.m., or 90 minutes before tipoff, which is the typical reporting time.

Why did players have to come early last year?

Last season the Knicks dropped the shootaround in favor of a late-afternoon walk-through, followed by a team meal. It reduced the commute time and ensured that players ate a healthy pregame dinner — a main goal of the medical staff.

so, it wasn't like mda dropped the shootaround and left the players with only free time. the coaching staff experimented with a different routine that they hoped would be more helpful in maximizing player performance. how exactly is that a sign of someone not committed to being a good manager?

nykshaknbake wrote:No I think I got it right.

martin wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:Just pointing out the inconsistency. I've heard over and over how MDA really is a good defensive coach, but in the end its we need D.HOward otherwise we can't expect anything. And like he said if D.Howard was here you or I could coach D too! coaching and talent are multiplicative but with nixluva if something goes well under mDA it's all his ingenioius system, if not it's all the players. We don't have the squad too be a top defensive team but we do have the squad to put a hand up when a shot goes up, rotate compentently towards an open shooter and the like. That stuff is on the personnel but also alot on the coach.

martin wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:Great so the only way we have defense if D. Howard comes here. Nothing elser coach could do so might as well do nothing. Poor misunderstood MDA. No way a caoch who is better than Jackson, SLoan and RIvers should ever be criticized. If it's all about talent than you'd have no problem if MDA was shown the door right?

nixluva wrote:NYC is where coaches come to die! It's amazing how many coaches that have had very good careers come to NY and get ripped and talked about like they are garbage. Yeah i'm talking about MDA and Woodson too if he ever got to be headcoach here. Does it really matter who it is? This city chews them up and spits them out.

Anyway. I'm apathetic to this hiring cuz I believe that it's not about the coaching as much as it is the talent a coach has to work with. You put D. Howard on this team and I could coach the defense!!! If we do in fact sign Dalembert or Pryz or Aaron Gray then I believe this team can improve.

You don't think talent leads to good offense or good defense? it's just all coaching?

I can't remember where I saw the stats (and don't really have time to look it up) but most all the really good defensive teams have very good bigs. It's kind of a prerequisite.

if that's what you are getting out of the posts, you haven't read them closely enough. Couldn't be further from what is being said.

Yeah I read the article giving the merits for not having shoot arounds and it has been covered before. However,this coach is always giving his team breaks. They have short practices and according to a player once every two weeks they have a working practice where they are together for two hours. Where most coaches are blurry eyed from excessive preperation this guy seems like a part timer. Not a lot of time is needed because guys just have to understand the 'system' and as soon as that happens everything will be fine. Why try when there aren't guys on the roster that can play the 'system'? If Mike D'Antoni could get his team to react on defense as quickly as guys do hear defending him the Knicks would be a lot better.

CrushAlot wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:No I think I got it right.

martin wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:Just pointing out the inconsistency. I've heard over and over how MDA really is a good defensive coach, but in the end its we need D.HOward otherwise we can't expect anything. And like he said if D.Howard was here you or I could coach D too! coaching and talent are multiplicative but with nixluva if something goes well under mDA it's all his ingenioius system, if not it's all the players. We don't have the squad too be a top defensive team but we do have the squad to put a hand up when a shot goes up, rotate compentently towards an open shooter and the like. That stuff is on the personnel but also alot on the coach.

martin wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:Great so the only way we have defense if D. Howard comes here. Nothing elser coach could do so might as well do nothing. Poor misunderstood MDA. No way a caoch who is better than Jackson, SLoan and RIvers should ever be criticized. If it's all about talent than you'd have no problem if MDA was shown the door right?

nixluva wrote:NYC is where coaches come to die! It's amazing how many coaches that have had very good careers come to NY and get ripped and talked about like they are garbage. Yeah i'm talking about MDA and Woodson too if he ever got to be headcoach here. Does it really matter who it is? This city chews them up and spits them out.

Anyway. I'm apathetic to this hiring cuz I believe that it's not about the coaching as much as it is the talent a coach has to work with. You put D. Howard on this team and I could coach the defense!!! If we do in fact sign Dalembert or Pryz or Aaron Gray then I believe this team can improve.

You don't think talent leads to good offense or good defense? it's just all coaching?

I can't remember where I saw the stats (and don't really have time to look it up) but most all the really good defensive teams have very good bigs. It's kind of a prerequisite.

if that's what you are getting out of the posts, you haven't read them closely enough. Couldn't be further from what is being said.

I agree that you have gotten it right. This has become the ifs and buts forum for this coach. I can't imagine another site where a guy loses like this coach has that has more defenders. Imagine defending a coach that doesn't employ advance scoutsts by saying the team was so bad it wouldn't have made a difference. Really? When guys come out and say they don't play d and don't have set plays the argument is that the player quoted doesn't know what he is talking about and doesn't understand the coach.

Yeah I read the article giving the merits for not having shoot arounds and it has been covered before. However,this coach is always giving his team breaks. They have short practices and according to a player once every two weeks they have a working practice where they are together for two hours. Where most coaches are blurry eyed from excessive preperation this guy seems like a part timer. Not a lot of time is needed because guys just have to understand the 'system' and as soon as that happens everything will be fine. Why try when there aren't guys on the roster that can play the 'system'? If Mike D'Antoni could get his team to react on defense as quickly as guys do hear defending him the Knicks would be a lot better.

YOu have an IMPRESSION of MDA that is not based on fact. You really don't know his level of preperation or the hours him and his staff put in.

I think the team after the first 13 games went on a tear and you got to see the potential of what Ray could do with the utes and Stat.

The staff took an unknown Russian and turned him into an NBA player in half a season. Your impression is he was held back, but he came on. Worked in Shawn Williams, had Ray playing at a high level, Got Gallo to to to the hoop, Wilson was sharp as hell, etc.

You don't look for progress but it was there. Why? The talent was maturing and we bought in two veteran starters and a Second round pick WHO STARTED!

Forget him? Took the 32nd pick and Landry fields became a top ten rookie!

Or do you prefer to lament on Rautins shortcomings?

Personally I could care less about MDA as a person but speaking for myself I defend him because fans like you who call for the coaches head every year don't want to see things objectively.

How many coaches we have since JVG? Six or seven? Two HOF coaches BTW, and one HOF point with two rings and look at the stink the rosters had despite top coaching talent.