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I challenge you HARDCORE to a head to head debate on this trade !!!
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HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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2/16/2004  12:54 AM
Oh please K9 stop it. I was just sitting back down and saw the thread LOL.

I will post what I said about the trade from the other thread. NYVec beat me to the punch on most of the points I planned on making.

K9, you sound a little HYPED about the trade... I know you're heartbroken about your bootybuddy getting traded, but the issue that you wish to discuss has already been fleshed out.

Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
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HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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2/16/2004  12:56 AM
Posted by HARDCOREKNICKSFAN:

Basically, I'd rather have TT & Nazr than KVH & Doleac.
NYVector stole my thunder as for the reasons for that. One thing he neglected to add was the defense factor between the two. TT is more balanced, and has skills we need. We know that TT shoots fairly well from the outside as well as having the quickness to slash to the hoop and run in the break or in transition. He has some post-up moves, too. He also is a better defender that KVH, which is another major factor in why he fits in better. Nazr brings solid D and some rebounding inside.

Isiah Thomas said in the press conference that it wasn't an individual thing, and that he viewed the trade in it's entirety. He said that he would not have made the deal if it were KVH for TT trade straight up.
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
Rich
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2/16/2004  12:58 AM
Posted by Snowman:

RICH your wrong bro, HARRINGTON & DOLEAC has the same contract, check REALGM.COM

Here's my source:

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york.htm

Also, it was reported in the NY Post that Isiah tried to trade Harrington to Toronto, but they only wanted players with ending contracts, and Harrington's had another year to run.

May be someone else knows something.
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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2/16/2004  1:09 AM
LOL Rich. Good post, for a link that's a good source.

K9/Snowman, before you call folks out for a debate, get your facts straight. If you took the time to do that instead of reacting on emotion and heartbreak, then you may realize that the trade made the team better and that there is no reason to debate that foregone conclusion at all.


Aww... Look at the KVH fanclub now... LMMFAO!
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
simrud
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2/16/2004  1:19 AM
Aight, dramatics aside, here is my take on this trade:

Houston and Van Horn have very similar games. Both rely on the outside shot alot, like to iso on the wing and shoot over the defender 1 on 1. Both a re bad defenders, neither one cuts well, neither one finsihes well in trafic. Basically same player at 2 positions. Replace Van Horn with Thomas and we now have a guy who complements Houston, as he is a slasher, finisher, while still being just as much of a treah fron deep. This gives us balance, better spacing, more options.

Nazr is hands down better then Doleac. He is actually a real C as opposed to a 6 11 PF, which Dolac really is. We would rathe have Kurt executing the pick and roll with Steph over Doleac anyways, so loosing his touch is not that big of a deal. Nazr gives us toughness, boarding, and decent shotblocking. He can finish inside, can run for a C, and gets offensive boards. He gives us a very good option to replae Deke when the other team goes small because Nazr is quick. Plus he is still big and will punish the small teams on the boards, aka second chance pts.

So if this does work out well, and so far Iseah showed he knows a thing or two about basketball lol, the team is very well balanced and poised for a legitimate run in the playoffs.

Next year we are gonna get Sheed and hopefully will work Nazr into the staring role, because he has shown he is capable of 12 9 and 1 as a starter even earlier in his development. A starting five of Nazr, Sheed, TT, H20 and Steph is great. Now we might want to trade Thomas in the offseason for a better C. Maybe Dampier or Rasho. Then Nazr remains a backup and we have an even better C along the other 4 legitimate ballers.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
spreeeewell
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2/16/2004  9:33 AM
Posted by simrud:

Aight, dramatics aside, here is my take on this trade:

Houston and Van Horn have very similar games. Both rely on the outside shot alot, like to iso on the wing and shoot over the defender 1 on 1. Both a re bad defenders, neither one cuts well, neither one finsihes well in trafic. Basically same player at 2 positions. Replace Van Horn with Thomas and we now have a guy who complements Houston, as he is a slasher, finisher, while still being just as much of a treah fron deep. This gives us balance, better spacing, more options.

Nazr is hands down better then Doleac. He is actually a real C as opposed to a 6 11 PF, which Dolac really is. We would rathe have Kurt executing the pick and roll with Steph over Doleac anyways, so loosing his touch is not that big of a deal. Nazr gives us toughness, boarding, and decent shotblocking. He can finish inside, can run for a C, and gets offensive boards. He gives us a very good option to replae Deke when the other team goes small because Nazr is quick. Plus he is still big and will punish the small teams on the boards, aka second chance pts.

So if this does work out well, and so far Iseah showed he knows a thing or two about basketball lol, the team is very well balanced and poised for a legitimate run in the playoffs.

Next year we are gonna get Sheed and hopefully will work Nazr into the staring role, because he has shown he is capable of 12 9 and 1 as a starter even earlier in his development. A starting five of Nazr, Sheed, TT, H20 and Steph is great. Now we might want to trade Thomas in the offseason for a better C. Maybe Dampier or Rasho. Then Nazr remains a backup and we have an even better C along the other 4 legitimate ballers.
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WOODMANnYk
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2/16/2004  10:36 AM
NO argument!! Hands down, this was a no-brainer for the Knicks!! Under the tulage of Zeke,Aguirre and Wilkins, watch how Thomas becomes a better more effective all-around player.

Nazr/Thomas younger, better defensively and athletically more gifted than KVH/Doleac

HArdcore,I give it to you!! You predicted that KVH would get traded right around the deadline.. GOOD CALL!!

Some People were heartbroken over this trade but honestly it was best for the Knicks. KVH was a serious defensive liability..
The Future. GO KNICKS!
playa2
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2/16/2004  10:40 AM
I think you guys should wait on this one, talent and tickets sales doesn't neccesarily mean good chemistry so far so good though.
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
DefAndReb
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2/16/2004  12:53 PM
This SHOULD make the team more exciting to watch. I liked the way KVH was playing for us, but with KVH, KT and Deke on the floor, it's like watching trees play. They never leave the floor. Meanwhile, over in Swampville, Kenyon and Jefferson routinely fly through the air to slam down the alley-oop.

TT and Nazr SHOULD (not saying they will, but the potential is there) bring the Knicks offense above the rim. KT can still stop and pop, Deke the occasional hook shot, but now we have a couple guys to jump for the ball, move without the ball, slam the ball down in someone's face.

This gives the Knicks more offensive versatility, without sacrificing defense, given TT and KVH are both weak defenders. Doleac does his job well, especially for the lower salary, but we had too many jump shooters down low.

Just like KVH, TT will have to grow some peach fuzz and play more to his potential. If he gets a hot hand at MSG, he'll start to feel it. Just like KVH ... he has the talent, but is afraid to use it. If he doesn't figure it out, Isiah will ship him out.

We needed someone like Nazr. I think he'll get some good minutes.
ko
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2/16/2004  2:23 PM
I think it was a dumb trade! If you dont greatly improve then why do it? Lets face it. A lot of people hated on kvh because he's white! But I saw someone who was the perfect compliment to steph and h20. Especially come play-offs. No matter what yall say, no 3 was guarding kvh. I know he has flaws, everyone has them except mj in his prime. You don't replace that kind of scoring and rebounding while hoping! Yep you guys are going to get what you want. No skill players who move fast and don't have it. I can't say I was a huge kvh fan but I thought he was the best three for us! It's not about running with no marbury, its about talent. Kvh is a much better play-off player than tt will ever be. I told yall I don't like Isiah. He is no knick and let you not forget that. He would have been better leaving kvh alone. For tt? Yea you will see two more dunks a game. Wooptee dam doo! I don't like it at all. And yall know kvh gave us a better chance at beating nj than tt does. What garbage! Isiah is like a big kid playing with other peoples toys. After they all broke up he gonna go play somewhere else, Laughing the whole time. A disgusting, non-imaginative trade that should raise all of our Eyebrows. FYi mine was raised the first day this cat was hired! I considered kvh the x factor. now there is none, not now anyway.
nyvector16
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2/16/2004  2:37 PM
KVH would put a good amount of points on our side of the score board... But his counterpart in the opposing team come playoff time.. will be someone of real talent.. who will light us up for 30... then when we Rotate to help defensively our whole defensive scheme would break down and it becomes a shoot out.. Which we proved we can't win... (see previous 2 Mav games) We already have a defensive liability in Houston... No team can afford two.... No team with hopes of a championship anyway. And all this is not even taking into consideration our huge upgrade at teh 5 with Nazr.
martin
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2/16/2004  2:39 PM
Posted by ko:

I think it was a dumb trade! If you dont greatly improve then why do it? Lets face it. A lot of people hated on kvh because he's white! But I saw someone who was the perfect compliment to steph and h20. Especially come play-offs. No matter what yall say, no 3 was guarding kvh. I know he has flaws, everyone has them except mj in his prime. You don't replace that kind of scoring and rebounding while hoping! Yep you guys are going to get what you want. No skill players who move fast and don't have it. I can't say I was a huge kvh fan but I thought he was the best three for us! It's not about running with no marbury, its about talent. Kvh is a much better play-off player than tt will ever be. I told yall I don't like Isiah. He is no knick and let you not forget that. He would have been better leaving kvh alone. For tt? Yea you will see two more dunks a game. Wooptee dam doo! I don't like it at all. And yall know kvh gave us a better chance at beating nj than tt does. What garbage! Isiah is like a big kid playing with other peoples toys. After they all broke up he gonna go play somewhere else, Laughing the whole time. A disgusting, non-imaginative trade that should raise all of our Eyebrows. FYi mine was raised the first day this cat was hired! I considered kvh the x factor. now there is none, not now anyway.

"Jane you ignorant slut."

I just had to get that quote out of my system.

Where do I start. At the beginning. So, inching towards a Championship team is out? Gotta trade for Shaq or draft Tim Duncan?
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HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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2/16/2004  2:45 PM
LOL Martin...

I had the same feeling when I read that post. I just chose to let the KVH fans cry their tears away.

You always know who the KVH fans are because they come up with all types of reasons to nitpick about TT and Nazr.

KVH the Knicks' X-Factor? Nah son. I like KVH for what he is now:

The Knicks' X-player! LMAO!

Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
martin
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2/16/2004  2:52 PM
Posted by HARDCOREKNICKSFAN:

LOL Martin...

I had the same feeling when I read that post. I just chose to let the KVH fans cry their tears away.

You always know who the KVH fans are because they come up with all types of reasons to nitpick about TT and Nazr.

KVH the Knicks' X-Factor? Nah son. I like KVH for what he is now:

The Knicks' X-player! LMAO!

I tell you what though, I was a big fan of KVH and his game. BIG. For whatever reason too. It was the glimpses of brilliance that we all saw: around the back with the left-handed layup, the rain of 3-pointer after 3-pointer when he was on, that face-up up-and-under that always drew a foul, the rebounds, the surprising team D he played on Artest in the Indiana match, and so forth.

That said, the 2 guys he was traded for bettered the Knicks, IMHO. And so it's done. And we inch towards a Championship.
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toodarkmark
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2/16/2004  2:52 PM
I just cant believe people go on about KVH's stats. This guy puts up great regular season stats everywhere he goes and still gets dumped to the next team every other year. Do you think thats a coincidence?

Who cares if he scored two more points a game and two more rebounds. I like KVH's game but in the end he is an unwanted player who was disliked by our star player. Alot of teams did not want him in a trade, and we were actually able to move him. To me this is a miracle! I was ready to take Ostertagg and Clark for him. In the end it would be game 5 of a playoff series with Indiana and KVH would miss a three pointer, some free throws and turn the ball over and Steph would KILL him. If TT does it, it wont be the same anger and hatred. It wont be KVH as usual. That is the single most important aspect of this trade. Stats do not win championships.
I don't care what people think. People are stupid. - Charles Barkley
ko
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2/16/2004  3:39 PM
martin why be so weak! do think what you posted follows your forum etikit? or you just made that exception for me? Then you delete two of my post responding to yourS THAT WAy you win huhg? you a phony but you already now that lets make this three

DefAndReb
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2/16/2004  3:41 PM
What "ko" is missing is that this is Marbury's team now, and I'm not just hyping Marbury, Isiah said it and Lenny said it. This is officially Marbury's team, and that means Marbury needs someone to feed it to. KVH, like Allan, KT, and Doleac, is a spot shooter. Set a screen and put the ball where he can catch and shoot. This is fine, except when all our players have this same offense. KVH played well, won a few games for the team. Right now, KVH is better than TT, true, but Marbury and Penny are just setting up screen plays for the other guys. They need some hops to vary the offense, and TT brings that (so does Nazr). This expands Stephon's options.

Marbury now has someone to get it above the rim. He simply didn't have that before. Even Shandon, our most on-the-move player, is a baseline driver.

Still, the other guys will have to step up to replace Keith's scoring and rebounding. And Tim will have to play consistently.

Now all we need is a low-post game. Oh wait, that's right, we'll probably sign Drunkie!
martin
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2/16/2004  3:46 PM
Posted by ko:

martin why be so weak! do think what you posted follows your forum etikit? or you just made that exception for me? Then you delete two of my post responding to yourS THAT WAy you win huhg? you a phony but you already now that lets make this three

ko, perhaps you need a reminder: we Mod mostly based on direct language usuage and than a very little on content.

Second question: Who hated KVH because of his race? And thus my sarcastic quote.
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nyvector16
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2/16/2004  3:59 PM
Hey KO..
1. You knock on IT who took us out of the Doldrums and into the real world of relevance & significance while claiming he does'nt have the team's best interest in mind... LUDICROUS!

2. You claim the trade was race motivated... RIDICULOUS!

3. You claim it's about Talent.. not chemistry with our Centerpiece Superstar Marbury... IGNORANT!

4. You consider a player who is know throughtout his career as being consistantly soft in the clutch as the X-Factor. PREPOSTEROUS!

5. Then you attack the site Admin when he makes fun of your ignorant post... ***** Just plain stupid...
ko
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2/16/2004  4:19 PM
Martin youre a phony! ... Def I know this is marburys team and he his self said he had never played with this kind of talent. Plus he had amare and the matrix and what did that get them? I love street ball and dunks just like the next man. But this is not the rucker its the nba. we have weakened our perimeter greatly now we are back to having one shooter. I hope tt plays great but i believe its the wrong trade. we didnt improve. at nothing. I hope Im wrong. But this is bad. And yes i believe most "nit picked" his game based on his image. yes i do! if I'm wrong then great. but tt is no defender and also carries the soft label. nobody should be loving this trade except the kvh haters. we still need what we needed before this trade and thats the bottom line!

I challenge you HARDCORE to a head to head debate on this trade !!!

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