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NBA Lockout 2011 Game Thread
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TymeLessKnicks
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7/1/2011  4:24 AM
so have they chained the doors at the practice gyms?

this is so ****ing ridiculous!

its 2011, what the **** are you doing having a lockout?

Had enough Melo?
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franco12
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7/1/2011  8:11 AM
I said this in another thread - but I think the players ought to look at forming a new, player owned league.

What is the exact value that the owners bring to the game?

What makes the game unique, a joy to watch, is the talents of the players.

Owners, as we know, can be born into the role, and can be complete idiots.

DrAlphaeus
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7/1/2011  10:33 AM
Going to the websites are hilarious. It's Permanent Old Timers Day now. Or cheerleaders.

I say that while the owners are locking out the players, the fans need to lock out the owners. Drop them from Twitter, Facebook and no NBA-related purchases whatsoever.

Baba Booey 2016 — "It's Silly Season"
martin
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7/1/2011  10:36 AM
franco12 wrote:I said this in another thread - but I think the players ought to look at forming a new, player owned league.

What is the exact value that the owners bring to the game?

What makes the game unique, a joy to watch, is the talents of the players.

Owners, as we know, can be born into the role, and can be complete idiots.

Stadiums, TV rights, administrative logistics.

Oh, and they founded the league.

100% sure there is a clause within the CBA that says the players can form their own league. That would be contract 101.

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DrAlphaeus
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7/1/2011  10:49 AM
Is it weird that I kinda hope the season gets trashed? I'm not even sure why. Maybe it's:

- "if we can't get past the first round, NO ONE WILL"
- I want to be more productive with my winter & spring (though I'll probably just end up over-Albaing)
- I secretly hope that this will force contraction
- I feel generous and feel like the great NBA fans around the world deserve to see some top flight basketball talent in their hometowns

Anybody else feel this way?

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BasketballJones
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7/1/2011  10:52 AM    LAST EDITED: 7/1/2011  10:53 AM
nyshakespeare wrote:http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/15282280/congratulations-nba-owners-you-got-what-you-wanted

Congratulations, NBA owners: You got what you wanted

NEW YORK -- First, some perspective: There's no need for disappointment, panic, or moral indignation after NBA owners voted to lock out the players Thursday. This is where this sham of a negotiation has been headed for months, if not years. This is what the owners want.

This is not what you want. But they don't care what you want. The owners don't and the players don't. They want what they want, and that's why we're here.
(Etc.)

I love this part:

The only cause for panic is among the worker bees in arenas and practice facilities all over the country that will be shut down for NBA business -- possibly for months, and potentially causing furloughs, pay cuts and job losses. Stern and deputy commissioner Adam Silver had the audacity to express remorse for such people Thursday, even as they carried out the cruel, twisted vision of arrogant owners who believe their almighty bottom line is bigger than the game.

As LeBron James said after the Finals, those regular folks can go back to their miserable lives now -- except they probably won't have jobs.

https:// It's not so hard.
TymeLessKnicks
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7/1/2011  10:56 AM
DrAlphaeus wrote:Going to the websites are hilarious. It's Permanent Old Timers Day now. Or cheerleaders.

I say that while the owners are locking out the players, the fans need to lock out the owners. Drop them from Twitter, Facebook and no NBA-related purchases whatsoever.

Fans "locking out" the owners would be awesome!

Imagine empty arenas when they decide to resume the season. Just the players, the announcers and the arena staff. A big "FUCK YOU"!

Maybe to the players as well...im looking at you melo, the guy that couldnt wait...

Had enough Melo?
DrAlphaeus
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7/1/2011  10:59 AM
TymeLessKnicks wrote:Maybe to the players as well...im looking at you melo, the guy that couldnt wait...

Well maybe considering what's going on right now, you sure can't call Melo stupid for doing that...

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TymeLessKnicks
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7/1/2011  11:10 AM
Carmelo Anthony has been secretly rehabbing a bum right elbow at the Knicks practice facility, and has been prohibited from lifting weights and any on-court work, including shooting, since the season ended in late April, The Post has learned. Anthony is suffering from elbow bursitis, a condition he had earlier this season in Denver. It flared up with the Knicks in late February when he talked about the possibility of having a drainage procedure but added he "doesn't like going under the knife." Anthony's Westchester rehab would end because of the expected lockout tomorrow -- one of the major behind-the-scenes detriments of NBA commissioner David Stern's work stoppage. Anthony would no longer be able to talk to the coaching or medical staff or have elbow treatment at the practice facility. New York Post


so I would really like to know if there are chains on the doors and police officers on guard...

Can someone drive by the facility to check this? Im 8 hours across the atlantic...

Had enough Melo?
TymeLessKnicks
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7/1/2011  11:10 AM
DrAlphaeus wrote:
TymeLessKnicks wrote:Maybe to the players as well...im looking at you melo, the guy that couldnt wait...

Well maybe considering what's going on right now, you sure can't call Melo stupid for doing that...

sure cant. but the knicks on the other hand...

Had enough Melo?
franco12
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7/1/2011  11:53 AM    LAST EDITED: 7/1/2011  11:55 AM
martin wrote:
franco12 wrote:I said this in another thread - but I think the players ought to look at forming a new, player owned league.

What is the exact value that the owners bring to the game?

What makes the game unique, a joy to watch, is the talents of the players.

Owners, as we know, can be born into the role, and can be complete idiots.

Stadiums, TV rights, administrative logistics.

Oh, and they founded the league.

100% sure there is a clause within the CBA that says the players can form their own league. That would be contract 101.

Isn't their contract basically over, hence the lockout? No contract, no provisions.

I'm not saying it would be easy.

There would be plenty of arenas that would be out - like MSG. But, there are plenty that are open, I'm sure, and many might have provisions that allow the local municipalities to allow another league in to use it- and since the NBA is out.

Granted - it would surely take time - maybe 5 years to be fully up and running, but the owners don't bring anything- they just happen to 'be'.

Logistics, GM, Refs - easily replaced. In fact, many could simply quit the NBA/their teams and come over for a steady pay check.

TV rights? Easy - there are other networks (NBC/CBS, Versus) that could be in a position to bid.

It could be done- and ideally, you'd need someone with big money to back it at the beginning - someone like a Warrent Buffet with Billions.

But the return could be enormous - you'd essentially be positioned to be the only owner of a future NBA league, in partnership with the players of that league.

If I had spare billions, I'd be on the phone to Hunter explaining just how big of a middle finger I could help him give to Stern and the Owners!

martin
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7/1/2011  12:04 PM
franco12 wrote:
martin wrote:
franco12 wrote:I said this in another thread - but I think the players ought to look at forming a new, player owned league.

What is the exact value that the owners bring to the game?

What makes the game unique, a joy to watch, is the talents of the players.

Owners, as we know, can be born into the role, and can be complete idiots.

Stadiums, TV rights, administrative logistics.

Oh, and they founded the league.

100% sure there is a clause within the CBA that says the players can form their own league. That would be contract 101.

Isn't their contract basically over, hence the lockout? No contract, no provisions.

I'm not saying it would be easy.

There would be plenty of arenas that would be out - like MSG. But, there are plenty that are open, I'm sure, and many might have provisions that allow the local municipalities to allow another league in to use it- and since the NBA is out.

Granted - it would surely take time - maybe 5 years to be fully up and running, but the owners don't bring anything- they just happen to 'be'.

Logistics, GM, Refs - easily replaced. In fact, many could simply quit the NBA/their teams and come over for a steady pay check.

TV rights? Easy - there are other networks (NBC/CBS, Versus) that could be in a position to bid.

It could be done- and ideally, you'd need someone with big money to back it at the beginning - someone like a Warrent Buffet with Billions.

But the return could be enormous - you'd essentially be positioned to be the only owner of a future NBA league, in partnership with the players of that league.

If I had spare billions, I'd be on the phone to Hunter explaining just how big of a middle finger I could help him give to Stern and the Owners!

owners and stockholders don't bring anything? Bill Gates just happens to "be"?

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franco12
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7/1/2011  12:48 PM
martin wrote:
franco12 wrote:
martin wrote:
franco12 wrote:I said this in another thread - but I think the players ought to look at forming a new, player owned league.

What is the exact value that the owners bring to the game?

What makes the game unique, a joy to watch, is the talents of the players.

Owners, as we know, can be born into the role, and can be complete idiots.

Stadiums, TV rights, administrative logistics.

Oh, and they founded the league.

100% sure there is a clause within the CBA that says the players can form their own league. That would be contract 101.

Isn't their contract basically over, hence the lockout? No contract, no provisions.

I'm not saying it would be easy.

There would be plenty of arenas that would be out - like MSG. But, there are plenty that are open, I'm sure, and many might have provisions that allow the local municipalities to allow another league in to use it- and since the NBA is out.

Granted - it would surely take time - maybe 5 years to be fully up and running, but the owners don't bring anything- they just happen to 'be'.

Logistics, GM, Refs - easily replaced. In fact, many could simply quit the NBA/their teams and come over for a steady pay check.

TV rights? Easy - there are other networks (NBC/CBS, Versus) that could be in a position to bid.

It could be done- and ideally, you'd need someone with big money to back it at the beginning - someone like a Warrent Buffet with Billions.

But the return could be enormous - you'd essentially be positioned to be the only owner of a future NBA league, in partnership with the players of that league.

If I had spare billions, I'd be on the phone to Hunter explaining just how big of a middle finger I could help him give to Stern and the Owners!

owners and stockholders don't bring anything? Bill Gates just happens to "be"?

Bill Gates is not James Dolan - completely different market/product.

Bill Gates invented code, was a software developer.

Dolan never played basketball.

martin
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7/1/2011  12:57 PM
franco12 wrote:
martin wrote:
franco12 wrote:
martin wrote:
franco12 wrote:I said this in another thread - but I think the players ought to look at forming a new, player owned league.

What is the exact value that the owners bring to the game?

What makes the game unique, a joy to watch, is the talents of the players.

Owners, as we know, can be born into the role, and can be complete idiots.

Stadiums, TV rights, administrative logistics.

Oh, and they founded the league.

100% sure there is a clause within the CBA that says the players can form their own league. That would be contract 101.

Isn't their contract basically over, hence the lockout? No contract, no provisions.

I'm not saying it would be easy.

There would be plenty of arenas that would be out - like MSG. But, there are plenty that are open, I'm sure, and many might have provisions that allow the local municipalities to allow another league in to use it- and since the NBA is out.

Granted - it would surely take time - maybe 5 years to be fully up and running, but the owners don't bring anything- they just happen to 'be'.

Logistics, GM, Refs - easily replaced. In fact, many could simply quit the NBA/their teams and come over for a steady pay check.

TV rights? Easy - there are other networks (NBC/CBS, Versus) that could be in a position to bid.

It could be done- and ideally, you'd need someone with big money to back it at the beginning - someone like a Warrent Buffet with Billions.

But the return could be enormous - you'd essentially be positioned to be the only owner of a future NBA league, in partnership with the players of that league.

If I had spare billions, I'd be on the phone to Hunter explaining just how big of a middle finger I could help him give to Stern and the Owners!

owners and stockholders don't bring anything? Bill Gates just happens to "be"?

Bill Gates is not James Dolan - completely different market/product.

Bill Gates invented code, was a software developer.

Dolan never played basketball.

so what? Dolan invented the Knicks. What's the difference? They are both owners, and after their initial entry, in your words, just "be"

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franco12
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7/1/2011  1:10 PM
martin wrote:
franco12 wrote:
martin wrote:
franco12 wrote:
martin wrote:
franco12 wrote:I said this in another thread - but I think the players ought to look at forming a new, player owned league.

What is the exact value that the owners bring to the game?

What makes the game unique, a joy to watch, is the talents of the players.

Owners, as we know, can be born into the role, and can be complete idiots.

Stadiums, TV rights, administrative logistics.

Oh, and they founded the league.

100% sure there is a clause within the CBA that says the players can form their own league. That would be contract 101.

Isn't their contract basically over, hence the lockout? No contract, no provisions.

I'm not saying it would be easy.

There would be plenty of arenas that would be out - like MSG. But, there are plenty that are open, I'm sure, and many might have provisions that allow the local municipalities to allow another league in to use it- and since the NBA is out.

Granted - it would surely take time - maybe 5 years to be fully up and running, but the owners don't bring anything- they just happen to 'be'.

Logistics, GM, Refs - easily replaced. In fact, many could simply quit the NBA/their teams and come over for a steady pay check.

TV rights? Easy - there are other networks (NBC/CBS, Versus) that could be in a position to bid.

It could be done- and ideally, you'd need someone with big money to back it at the beginning - someone like a Warrent Buffet with Billions.

But the return could be enormous - you'd essentially be positioned to be the only owner of a future NBA league, in partnership with the players of that league.

If I had spare billions, I'd be on the phone to Hunter explaining just how big of a middle finger I could help him give to Stern and the Owners!

owners and stockholders don't bring anything? Bill Gates just happens to "be"?

Bill Gates is not James Dolan - completely different market/product.

Bill Gates invented code, was a software developer.

Dolan never played basketball.

so what? Dolan invented the Knicks. What's the difference? They are both owners, and after their initial entry, in your words, just "be"

There is a difference. Gates is the founder of Microsoft. He wrote the code, and his vision has guided the development of Microsoft. Remove him from the history of Microsoft, and there is no Microsoft.

Dolan just happened to be the son of a man who made a lot of money, and bought the team. Remove him from the equation, and you can very easily have another owner. I could be the owner, if I had billions.

There is nothing that James Dolan brings to the equation besides his sizable check book.

What would happen if every NBA owner died tragically tomorrow in a plane crash? The NBA would continue to exist- new owners, likely heirs, would step in their place.

What if every present NBA player died similarly?

Would there be a season? Would it be any good? How long would it take for the talent level to be replaced? 5 years?

This is one of those areas of the economy where you can take a real Marxist stand about 'Capitalists' and 'Workers', and see how owners could be simply removed and shifted to the workers themselves.

martin
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7/1/2011  1:44 PM
franco12 wrote:
martin wrote:
franco12 wrote:
martin wrote:
franco12 wrote:
martin wrote:
franco12 wrote:I said this in another thread - but I think the players ought to look at forming a new, player owned league.

What is the exact value that the owners bring to the game?

What makes the game unique, a joy to watch, is the talents of the players.

Owners, as we know, can be born into the role, and can be complete idiots.

Stadiums, TV rights, administrative logistics.

Oh, and they founded the league.

100% sure there is a clause within the CBA that says the players can form their own league. That would be contract 101.

Isn't their contract basically over, hence the lockout? No contract, no provisions.

I'm not saying it would be easy.

There would be plenty of arenas that would be out - like MSG. But, there are plenty that are open, I'm sure, and many might have provisions that allow the local municipalities to allow another league in to use it- and since the NBA is out.

Granted - it would surely take time - maybe 5 years to be fully up and running, but the owners don't bring anything- they just happen to 'be'.

Logistics, GM, Refs - easily replaced. In fact, many could simply quit the NBA/their teams and come over for a steady pay check.

TV rights? Easy - there are other networks (NBC/CBS, Versus) that could be in a position to bid.

It could be done- and ideally, you'd need someone with big money to back it at the beginning - someone like a Warrent Buffet with Billions.

But the return could be enormous - you'd essentially be positioned to be the only owner of a future NBA league, in partnership with the players of that league.

If I had spare billions, I'd be on the phone to Hunter explaining just how big of a middle finger I could help him give to Stern and the Owners!

owners and stockholders don't bring anything? Bill Gates just happens to "be"?

Bill Gates is not James Dolan - completely different market/product.

Bill Gates invented code, was a software developer.

Dolan never played basketball.

so what? Dolan invented the Knicks. What's the difference? They are both owners, and after their initial entry, in your words, just "be"

There is a difference. Gates is the founder of Microsoft. He wrote the code, and his vision has guided the development of Microsoft. Remove him from the history of Microsoft, and there is no Microsoft.

Dolan just happened to be the son of a man who made a lot of money, and bought the team. Remove him from the equation, and you can very easily have another owner. I could be the owner, if I had billions.

There is nothing that James Dolan brings to the equation besides his sizable check book.

What would happen if every NBA owner died tragically tomorrow in a plane crash? The NBA would continue to exist- new owners, likely heirs, would step in their place.

What if every present NBA player died similarly?

Would there be a season? Would it be any good? How long would it take for the talent level to be replaced? 5 years?

This is one of those areas of the economy where you can take a real Marxist stand about 'Capitalists' and 'Workers', and see how owners could be simply removed and shifted to the workers themselves.

Dolan and his buddies are the founders of the NBA, same as Gates is with Microsoft.

It starts with the idea: one was software, the other an entertainment corporation.

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Childs2Dudley
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7/1/2011  2:13 PM
Dolan became owner after the lockout of 1999. Not sure how that makes him one of the founders of the NBA.
"Our attitude toward life determines life's attitude towards us." - Earl Nightingale
martin
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7/1/2011  2:18 PM
Childs2Dudley wrote:Dolan became owner after the lockout of 1999. Not sure how that makes him one of the founders of the NBA.

illustration by example. same family handed down, so who cares about the end dude.

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PresIke
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7/1/2011  3:22 PM
this thread is gonna wind up being epic in length...
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
PresIke
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7/1/2011  3:31 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=coon_larry&page=NBAFinancials-110630 - Larry Coon's take (courtesy kby from the ex-nytimes forum)

basically he's saying that the teams that are claiming the biggest losses and affecting the perception of how far in the red they are is about recently purchased teams like the nets and hornets who are in debt and using it to show them as worse off.

But these statements also illustrate the accounting practices to which Hunter and the players association take issue. Brooklyn Basketball (the Nets' parent company) paid $361 million for the team. In order for the balance sheet to balance, it had to show assets in that amount. Some of these are real, physical assets; accounts receivable; and the like. Other parts are "intangible" assets, which represent the amount the buyer paid above the value of the tangible assets. These assets (but not the franchise itself) are amortized over their "useful lives," with a portion of their value (a total of $200 million for the Nets) counted as an operating expense each year. For the Nets this expense added up to $41.5 million in 2005 and $40.2 million in 2006.

In other words, $41.5 million of the Nets' $49 million operating loss in 2005, and $40.2 million of its $57.4 million in 2006, is there simply to make the books balance. It is part of the purchase price of the team, being expensed each year. This doesn't mean they cooked their books, or that they tried to pull a fast one on the players. It is part of the generally accepted accounting practice to transfer expenses from the acquisition to the profit and loss over a certain time period. However, it's an argument that doesn't hold water in a discussion with Hunter and the players association, who would claim that the Nets didn't really "lose" a combined $106.4 million in those two years, but rather that they lost $7.5 million and $17.2 million, respectively.

The Hornets' statements show that despite their hardships, the team would have turned a reasonable operating profit in 2009 had it not been for the interest expense on their crushing debt. Despite operating on such a thin margin, the team loaned Shinn and his company $35 million at a low interest rate -- while at the same time borrowing $100 million at higher interest rates. While there is no reason to suspect it wasn't for legitimate reasons, the loan still contributed to the team's cash flow issues. Here the players would argue that it isn't their responsibility when teams mismanage their franchises, nor for the portion of debt that is unrelated to the actual basketball operations of the teams.

In either case their argument is the same: some issues simply aren't the players' problem. Unless the players can share in the profit when a team is sold, they don't want to be burdened with the costs associated with buying the team in the first place. And if they don't have a say in the team's management decisions, they don't want to pay the cost when those decisions go awry.

still don't get it? neither did i, since i'm not an accountant or lawyer...

here's ex-uk member kam's explanation from that forum:

The following is my understanding based on one semester of Accounting I took at Rutgers, but I don't know if it actually explains things or just shows off what little I remember about balance sheets.

Balancing a balance sheet is like balancing your checkbook and making sure the debits match the credits.
When any business purchases an asset like a building or a piece of machinery or a patent, that thing has a generally accepted useful life. Over time, the value of that building or that piece of machinery or that patent declines. For example, you own a delivery business. You just bought a delivery van for 20,000. Thats 20,000 you've credited to your business. In 5 years, the van will still be an asset, but it will have a lesser (depreciated) value on the books. As a GAAP (generally accepted accounting principles) practice, you can amortize or debit the 20,000 over the useful life of the asset, so that if the van has a depreciation schedule of 5 years, you can expense the cost of purchasing the asset over the 5 years either evenly with straight line depreciation (4000 per year) or following a modified depreciation schedule called MACRS 5 or MACRS 7 which depreciates the value of the asset unevenly, as asset value tends to depreciate slower over time. At the end of the 5 years, the vehicle you have bought (credit 20,000) and depreciated will has a salvage value (20,000 - depreciation) or a book value because you can still sell the asset. Say you sell the asset for book value after 5 years. WHen reviewing the balance sheet, you will see 20,000 went into the business and the business got $20,000 back over the 5 years in lifetime depreciation and salvage value. Sometimes a business can sell the asset back for higher than book value (so you got more than $20,000 out of that vehicle when all was said and done) but then they have to pay taxes on the windfall amount.

businesses have capital spending costs and operating costs.

buying the team is capital spending. paying salaries and keeping the lights on is an operating expense.

the players are saying... we don't care that you financed yourself out the ass to buy the team. The costs of financing your debt are of no concern to us so don't claim that as an operating loss. your capital losses are your own, and you can try to recoup them when you sell the team, as we the players don't see any of the profits of the team sales.

in short, the owners are including cost of capital when they claim operating losses of 350 mil.

Operating losses are closer to 150 mil not the total 350 mil the owners claim.

Now if this were corporate america where shareholders get paid when the business gets sold, its perfectly acceptable practice to include depreciation and other capital budgeting items on a balance sheet.

But in the nba the players don't share the profits when the team gets sold. they aren't shareholders at all. so they argue the NBA shouldn't be using those GAAP principles.

players are right, but to the outside world, the owners LOOK right.

Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
NBA Lockout 2011 Game Thread

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