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so..do you really need 3 superstars to win a championship
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MaTT4281
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6/13/2011  12:09 AM    LAST EDITED: 6/13/2011  12:09 AM
Here I thought champions needed both offense AND defense...
AUTOADVERT
Paladin55
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6/13/2011  12:13 AM
AnubisADL wrote:
BasketballJones wrote:
AnubisADL wrote:Your talking crazy man.

I suggest you look back over the last few years. Dallas aint winning **** next year.

Lebron, Wade, Bosh, two hobbled players, plus scrubs just made it to the NBA Finals in one year.

You think they arent going to fix their holes?

They have three rather large holes they need to deal with.

Dude they didnt have a center and their PG position was hit or miss.

A healthy Haslem and Miller means reduced minutes for the Big 3.

They are no different than the Knick in the sense that we have to have unreal games from Amare and Carmelo for us to do damage in the playoffs.


Not sure BBJones was talking about the same kind of "holes" you're talking about.
No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities- C.N. Bovee
nixluva
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6/13/2011  12:13 AM
Juice wrote:
nixluva wrote:The Mavs won because they had better OFFENSE!!! The Mavs play great D, but in the end the Heat couldn't keep up scoring wise. The Heat can't play any better defense, it was GREAT Mavs offense that won this title. So I don't wanna hear that you can't win with a good defense and a great offense. You don't have to have the #1 defense to win a championship. This isn't to say that defense isn't important, we all know it is, so don't go there. I'm just saying that you want a team that is capable of getting it done in more than one way. The Heat have never been a very good offensive team. They tended to beat teams with their defense getting steals and scoring easy buckets on the break. With the Mavs they run such good offense, that there weren't a lot of those easy fastbreak buckets that the Heat usually live off of.

The Mavs spread the floor and passed so well that it stretched the limits of the Heats great defensive quickness. The Heat didn't have an answer for the Mavs best player defensively, cuz the Mavs had enough real threats on the floor to give him room to work against single coverage or a late help defender. The Heat offense stinks. If not for the great individual talents of Lebron and Wade their offense wouldn't be that effective. The Mavs were deeper and had more answers for the Heat defense than any team they faced in the East.

Lebron just said they were good DEFENSIVELY and wouldn't allow him to do what he wanted to do. They deserve credit and they are underrated defensively. He didn't say anything about their Offense at least to start his presser. I'll take what a professional athlete says who played against them versus anything jibberish you have to say


That's a freakin copout!!! You think MJ or Kobe would talk like that in their prime??? Tell me why did Dallas score 100+ if their offense wasn't superior? Does a top defensive team like the Heat let just anyone score that many points? NO!!! That Mavs team had a superior offense and that's why they won. The Mavs have a good D, but they have to use a ZONE in order to be effective. When you score 100 in a close out finals game on the road against a top defensive team, you've got some GREAT offense. How many shots did Lebron and his guys miss down the stretch? How many 3's did the Mavs make? Man you guys don't want to admit it, but i'm right.
Juice
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6/13/2011  12:23 AM    LAST EDITED: 6/13/2011  12:25 AM
nixluva wrote:
Juice wrote:
nixluva wrote:The Mavs won because they had better OFFENSE!!! The Mavs play great D, but in the end the Heat couldn't keep up scoring wise. The Heat can't play any better defense, it was GREAT Mavs offense that won this title. So I don't wanna hear that you can't win with a good defense and a great offense. You don't have to have the #1 defense to win a championship. This isn't to say that defense isn't important, we all know it is, so don't go there. I'm just saying that you want a team that is capable of getting it done in more than one way. The Heat have never been a very good offensive team. They tended to beat teams with their defense getting steals and scoring easy buckets on the break. With the Mavs they run such good offense, that there weren't a lot of those easy fastbreak buckets that the Heat usually live off of.

The Mavs spread the floor and passed so well that it stretched the limits of the Heats great defensive quickness. The Heat didn't have an answer for the Mavs best player defensively, cuz the Mavs had enough real threats on the floor to give him room to work against single coverage or a late help defender. The Heat offense stinks. If not for the great individual talents of Lebron and Wade their offense wouldn't be that effective. The Mavs were deeper and had more answers for the Heat defense than any team they faced in the East.

Lebron just said they were good DEFENSIVELY and wouldn't allow him to do what he wanted to do. They deserve credit and they are underrated defensively. He didn't say anything about their Offense at least to start his presser. I'll take what a professional athlete says who played against them versus anything jibberish you have to say


That's a freakin copout!!! You think MJ or Kobe would talk like that in their prime??? Tell me why did Dallas score 100+ if their offense wasn't superior? Does a top defensive team like the Heat let just anyone score that many points? NO!!! That Mavs team had a superior offense and that's why they won. The Mavs have a good D, but they have to use a ZONE in order to be effective. When you score 100 in a close out finals game on the road against a top defensive team, you've got some GREAT offense. How many shots did Lebron and his guys miss down the stretch? How many 3's did the Mavs make? Man you guys don't want to admit it, but i'm right.


They only scored over 100pts 2 the Heat 1 this series.... the rest of the games were high 80s low 90s. Seriously you sound quite desperate in an attempt for a failing agenda. I mean how many Free Throws did Wade/Lebron/Bosh average during the season compared to this series and what were their shooting percentages, The Heat's PPG average. Did you even bother to look up the defensive statistics before you came to your confusion?
nixluva
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6/13/2011  12:28 AM
Childs2Dudley wrote:
nixluva wrote:The Mavs won because they had better OFFENSE!!! The Mavs play great D, but in the end the Heat couldn't keep up scoring wise. The Heat can't play any better defense, it was GREAT Mavs offense that won this title. So I don't wanna hear that you can't win with a good defense and a great offense. You don't have to have the #1 defense to win a championship. This isn't to say that defense isn't important, we all know it is, so don't go there. I'm just saying that you want a team that is capable of getting it done in more than one way. The Heat have never been a very good offensive team. They tended to beat teams with their defense getting steals and scoring easy buckets on the break. With the Mavs they run such good offense, that there weren't a lot of those easy fastbreak buckets that the Heat usually live off of.

The Mavs spread the floor and passed so well that it stretched the limits of the Heats great defensive quickness. The Heat didn't have an answer for the Mavs best player defensively, cuz the Mavs had enough real threats on the floor to give him room to work against single coverage or a late help defender. The Heat offense stinks. If not for the great individual talents of Lebron and Wade their offense wouldn't be that effective. The Mavs were deeper and had more answers for the Heat defense than any team they faced in the East.

This is a dumb statement. Completely dumb.

Both teams played very good defense the entire series.

Rick Carlisle really knew how to take LeBron out of the game. He coached a great series on both sides of the ball.

Defense still wins championships, no matter how many times you want to say otherwise to show your support for Mike D'Antoni.


You and all the other guys that keep opposing me on this assume that I don't care about D. That's ridiculous, of course I love D. I'm not saying that you don't need to play D to win. I am saying that it's not the end all and be all. The best defensive team was the Bulls and THEY LOST!!! The next best defensive team was the Heat and THEY LOST!!! In both cases, the Bulls and Heat were not good enough offensively to close the deal. You can say what you want, but in the end the Heat were a superior defensive team to Dallas. Dallas can defend no doubt, but they couldn't score on an inferior defense to theirs. Dallas can defend, but they aren't the best defensive team in the league. The Mavs are the most BALANCED team in the league and that's what i've been trying to say. I've never said that you don't need D, that's what you and your friends that bash me keep hearing. I've said that you want a team that has a great offense too cuz when you get to the final 4 and then the finals, those are gonna be the better defensive teams and you'd better have an answer for that tough defense. The Heat didn't have an answer for the Mavs D, but the Mavs did have an answer for the Heats D.
Juice
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6/13/2011  12:37 AM    LAST EDITED: 6/13/2011  12:39 AM
No The Mavs D had an answer to the Heat's O.... the stats back it up

Nixluva watched game 6 saw the Mavs make all those 3's and used 1 game to define this series, getting on his usual pollyanish soap box.
franco12
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6/13/2011  12:55 AM
you need a well crafted team that gets on a hot streak at the right time of the year.
nixluva
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6/13/2011  12:55 AM
Juice wrote:No The Mavs D had an answer to the Heat's O.... the stats back it up

Nixluva watched game 6 saw the Mavs make all those 3's and used 1 game to define this series, getting on his usual pollyanish soap box.


No don't be an imbecile! I'm not an idiot. The Heat just don't have a great team offense. They have some great individual offensive players, but in terms of how they function as a team, their offense is easier to stop than the Mavs. It only looked like the Mavs D was great when in reality the Heat offense isn't that sophisticated. When the Mavs went into Zone the Heat couldn't figure it out and had no answer for it. A ZONE! They started heaving up bad shots. Sure the Mavs executed, but if you're a great team with the kind of superstars the Heat have, you should be able to break a zone and make them pay for using it. How many wide open shots did Dirk miss? If he was on his usual game they blow the Heat out!!! That's just how much better they are than the Heat offensively. The Mavs have one Great player and he was sick in one game and off in this last one. STILL the Mavs offense kept the Heat off balance.

In this series the Heat could never really pull away from the Mavs. Even when they got a good lead they couldn't hold the Mavs down forever and the Mavs would come on strong in the 4th. All that passing basically wore the Heat down. The Mavs spread the floor and kept moving the ball and forcing the Heat to use up every ounce of energy they had and then they'd unleash Dirk on them when the Heat's legs were rubbery. A great offense will make a defense work so hard that even tho the Heat have one of the most stifling defenses we've ever seen, the Mavs were able to still get wins.
BasketballJones
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6/13/2011  12:55 AM
Paladin55 wrote:
AnubisADL wrote:
BasketballJones wrote:
AnubisADL wrote:Your talking crazy man.

I suggest you look back over the last few years. Dallas aint winning **** next year.

Lebron, Wade, Bosh, two hobbled players, plus scrubs just made it to the NBA Finals in one year.

You think they arent going to fix their holes?

They have three rather large holes they need to deal with.

Dude they didnt have a center and their PG position was hit or miss.

A healthy Haslem and Miller means reduced minutes for the Big 3.

They are no different than the Knick in the sense that we have to have unreal games from Amare and Carmelo for us to do damage in the playoffs.


Not sure BBJones was talking about the same kind of "holes" you're talking about.

https:// It's not so hard.
knicks1248
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6/13/2011  1:15 AM
I think some of you are missing the real reason they won..the pg play for dallas was fantastic..berea and kidd was/is a great tandem..you look at kidd stats and think, it wasn't a real factor, but he hit some super timely 3's..and berea provided excellent energy (along with terry) off the bench...dallas had tyson chandler and 2 other bigs that came off the bench to provid solid d.

Miami has no trade chips, no draft picks. No cap space...they will eventually trade bosh..its the only way to provide some quality depth

ES
nixluva
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6/13/2011  1:32 AM
knicks1248 wrote:I think some of you are missing the real reason they won..the pg play for dallas was fantastic..berea and kidd was/is a great tandem..you look at kidd stats and think, it wasn't a real factor, but he hit some super timely 3's..and berea provided excellent energy (along with terry) off the bench...dallas had tyson chandler and 2 other bigs that came off the bench to provid solid d.

Miami has no trade chips, no draft picks. No cap space...they will eventually trade bosh..its the only way to provide some quality depth


I agree with you. I didn't get into specifics, but that was a huge factor. The Mavs offense isn't simply based on individual talent as much as the Heat. They actually work great together and share the ball. They're more patient and that comes from having Kidd and Barea who are really good PG's. Barea breaks the other team down and Kidd just gets the team into their sets, defends and makes smart plays. Still I don't want these guys to ignore the fact that the Mavs offense was superior and even tho the Heat have a great defense, they were able to find ways to beat that defense with smart team BB and timely play from their star Dirk. Think about how many Mavs really stood out in this series. Dirk, Kidd, Barea, Terry, Marion and even Stephenson. It wasn't that way for the Heat.

Another problem the Heat has is that I still don't think the Lebron/Wade pairing works. The reason is that Lebron is not a great player off the ball and this leads to him disappearing for stretches of games. Wade and Lebron are too similar. They both need the ball to do what they do, but Lebron even more so. Also since they don't really have a post player, they can't really hurt a team inside. All the Mavs did was go Zone or a kind of hybrid zone at times and force the Heat to hit jumpers. They shut down penetration and that was it for the Heat. If the Heat had a great offense they couldn't be shut down like that. Neither the Bulls nor the Heat have a CHAMPIONSHIP OFFENSE. They've got the D, just not the O.
knickstorrents
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6/13/2011  1:32 AM
The answer is teams win championships. You don't need three of anything (though an excellent platoon of 3 guards is very helpful - kidd/barea/terry).

A team that trusts each other, finds the open man, covers each other on defense, these are the necessary qualities of a championship team.

Rose is not the answer.
nixluva
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6/13/2011  1:39 AM
knickstorrents wrote:The answer is teams win championships. You don't need three of anything (though an excellent platoon of 3 guards is very helpful - kidd/barea/terry).

A team that trusts each other, finds the open man, covers each other on defense, these are the necessary qualities of a championship team.

With the talent they have they shouldn't lose. The problem is that Lebron and Wade aren't as potent as you would think cuz they're too similar. Lebron can't play off the ball. They both need the ball and it takes away from their effectiveness when they don't have it. If the Heat had a great team offensive attack they would be champions, but they don't have a Championship Offense.

Neither the Bulls nor Heat are on that level offensively. IMO if the Knicks can somehow improve their defense, they can surpass the Bulls and Heat. It's a tough task, but not impossible. This draft and FA market could really push the Knicks into the Elite in the East. We've got to take advantage of the available 2 way players in this draft. There are PG's available that are great defenders and bigs that can help us inside.
Paladin55
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6/13/2011  2:22 AM
MaTT4281 wrote:
VDesai wrote:There's no formula- you need a good team whatever way you can get it. Balance, depth, and a dominant player or group of players that can execute in crunch time. There's no number of players. There's no set position that's most important.

Seriously.

For as long as I can remember, everyone said you needed two stars. Then Detroit won with no superstars. Now we're back to needing 1? Good teams will find a way to win. These 'formulas' are pointless after a while.


Yup.

A balanced team with players who can compliment and pick up for each other, whether it is stocked with superstars or just good players, is going to beat a team with better players who just don't know how to play together as a team.

Dallas has a number of good players, and a number of guys who are able to take over at certain moments of a game, even though they are not named Wade or James. They have some size and ruggedness, outside shooting, playmakers, and players who are not afraid to step up against the superstars which so many on UK seem to be bowing to all the time.

In short, a team wins games, not a bunch of individuals who just happen to be playing together on the same side at the same moment.

No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities- C.N. Bovee
nixluva
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6/13/2011  2:27 AM
Paladin55 wrote:
MaTT4281 wrote:
VDesai wrote:There's no formula- you need a good team whatever way you can get it. Balance, depth, and a dominant player or group of players that can execute in crunch time. There's no number of players. There's no set position that's most important.

Seriously.

For as long as I can remember, everyone said you needed two stars. Then Detroit won with no superstars. Now we're back to needing 1? Good teams will find a way to win. These 'formulas' are pointless after a while.


Yup.

A balanced team with players who can compliment and pick up for each other, whether it is stocked with superstars or just good players, is going to beat a team with better players who just don't know how to play together as a team.

Dallas has a number of good players, and a number of guys who are able to take over at certain moments of a game, even though they are not named Wade or James. They have some size and ruggedness, outside shooting, playmakers, and players who are not afraid to step up against the superstars which so many on UK seem to be bowing to all the time.

In short, a team wins games, not a bunch of individuals who just happen to be playing together on the same side at the same moment.


The 3 Amigos have unbelievable individual talent, but they aren't a great TEAM. Dallas is a true great team. They all play with and off of each other. Sharing the ball, executing on a high level. They have parts that complement each other perfectly. They have quality at every position and depth. The Heat get by mostly cuz their big 3 is so talented, but as a team they aren't built to the same standard as the Mavs. Also I don't think Spoelstra is on the same level as Carlisle. Basically the Mavs are just better overall. Miami's raw talent got them very far tho. Now they have to see if there's anyway they can improve the team and its chemistry.
Olbrannon
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6/13/2011  6:41 AM
nixluva wrote:The Mavs won because they had better OFFENSE!!! The Mavs play great D, but in the end the Heat couldn't keep up scoring wise. The Heat can't play any better defense, it was GREAT Mavs offense that won this title. So I don't wanna hear that you can't win with a good defense and a great offense. You don't have to have the #1 defense to win a championship. This isn't to say that defense isn't important, we all know it is, so don't go there. I'm just saying that you want a team that is capable of getting it done in more than one way. The Heat have never been a very good offensive team. They tended to beat teams with their defense getting steals and scoring easy buckets on the break. With the Mavs they run such good offense, that there weren't a lot of those easy fastbreak buckets that the Heat usually live off of.

The Mavs spread the floor and passed so well that it stretched the limits of the Heats great defensive quickness. The Heat didn't have an answer for the Mavs best player defensively, cuz the Mavs had enough real threats on the floor to give him room to work against single coverage or a late help defender. The Heat offense stinks. If not for the great individual talents of Lebron and Wade their offense wouldn't be that effective. The Mavs were deeper and had more answers for the Heat defense than any team they faced in the East.

Sorry I disagree. they won because of defense. How many times did the Mav's go on a tear in which they came from behind and while shutting the other team down? At least 4 times. They win because Dirk and the Jet would not be denied. Because Berea made timely jaunts to the hoop and some big 3's

It was a team thing and it would not have happened if the Mav's had not shut down the other team when they were behind rand them down and then beat them. The Mav's played GREAT defense.

Bill Simmons on Tyreke Evans "The prototypical 0-guard: Someone who handles the ball all the time, looks for his own shot, gets to the rim at will and operates best if his teammates spread the floor to watch him."
misterearl
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6/13/2011  6:44 AM
Corey Brewer was waiting in the wings, just in case. Caron Butler never suited up. Brendan Hawywood was chillin'.

Quality Depth

once a knick always a knick
Childs2Dudley
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6/13/2011  6:50 AM
misterearl wrote:Corey Brewer was waiting in the wings, just in case. Caron Butler never suited up. Brendan Hawywood was chillin'.

Quality Depth

Butler has been injured most of the season.

Brewer was used in the Lakers series. I think Haywood was a bit too.

This is a case of Carlisle utilizing his bench and not having "his guys" and telling anyone he doesn't know to prove themselves to him. Carlisle literally used everyone from Brian cardinal to DeShawn Stevenson in the playoffs. If you ever seen Mike go past 8 players in the playoffs you can come kick me in the nuts. Carlisle knows how to play matchups and adjust accordingly. He knows how to utilize the weapons he has. He knows when to call a timely time out and calm the team down. Everything he has done in his career is great but this playoff series defined him as a coach. Nearly every move he made worked. He pushed the right buttons for sure. Mike D'Antoni is not that type of creative, open-minded coach. Not even close.

"Our attitude toward life determines life's attitude towards us." - Earl Nightingale
misterearl
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6/13/2011  6:55 AM
Childs2Dudley wrote:
misterearl wrote:Corey Brewer was waiting in the wings, just in case. Caron Butler never suited up. Brendan Hawywood was chillin'.

Quality Depth

Butler has been injured most of the season.

Brewer was used in the Lakers series. I think Haywood was a bit too.

This is a case of Carlisle utilizing his bench and not having "his guys" and telling anyone he doesn't know to prove themselves to him. Carlisle literally used everyone from Brian cardinal to DeShawn Stevenson in the playoffs. If you ever seen Mike go past 8 players in the playoffs you can come kick me in the nuts. Carlisle knows how to play matchups and adjust accordingly. He knows how to utilize the weapons he has. He knows when to call a timely time out and calm the team down. Everything he has done in his career is great but this playoff series defined him as a coach. Nearly every move he made worked. He pushed the right buttons for sure. Mike D'Antoni is not that type of creative, open-minded coach. Not even close.

The Custodian rules.

once a knick always a knick
jazz74
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6/13/2011  7:17 AM
look, lets not forget that this heat team was only two wins away from winning it all. they will find a way to get the pieces they need. say what you want about riley, he is a shrewd and resourceful businessman and will find a way to get better with his limited hand. with that said, heat did have a royal carpet to the finals playing a overachieving but not talented sixers team, aging celtics team, and an offensive deprived bulls team. dallas just had balance and carlisle is a genius making adjustments throughout. now, looking at this, i think the knicks SHOULD feel hope. they have melo, one of the top three offensive players in the league and one of the best fourth quarter finishers. that is something that lebron cant claim yet. maybe wade but he didnt the last two games. that seems to be the key so we just have to get established "role" players. however, deron williams or chris paul would fit nicely too.
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so..do you really need 3 superstars to win a championship
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