nixluva wrote:

martin wrote:

nixluva wrote:The thing I like with a kid like Shumpert is that he's already a bigtime defender and he's a physical specimen. I remember reading how shocked the media was when seeing him amongst the other PG's. He was clearly bigger than all of them in more than one way. Then he goes on to post impressive measurements and athletic ability. I'm hoping that other teams don't change their view of him so that he's still there for us. He kind of reminds me a little bit of Tyreke Evans and Westbrook. I like other PG's in this draft as well, but if we're talking about addressing our need to improve defensively then why not take the best defensive PG in the draft, that also is very capable in other areas as well, plus a lot of upside.

I feel like we can't lose in this draft cuz there are so many good players that one of them will fall to us and if we get another pick we can add yet another useful prospect. This isn't you typical top heavy draft, but it's a solid draft IMO. We've gotta come out of this draft with 2 players. A PG and C. Don't know if we'll be that fortunate, but i'd be workin real hard to try and make that happen. Shumpert and Vucevic would be an A+ draft IMO.

i like the Tyreke Eans comparison, but the question remains: how good a basketball player is he? Is he a SG or PG? can he run a team? Can he get better?

Physical specimen aside, what's going on in his head? Is he Gerald Green or can he be better?

Yeah I wondered about that too, but IMO I see him as already better than Rondo was coming into the league. Similar player, but I don't recall anyone feeling that strong about his PG skills and certainly not his shooting. Shumpert has displayed excellent court vision on top of everything else he has, but like Jimmer, he was a primary option this year. That sometimes skews what a player really is. In an interview he said he views himself as a pure point, a defensive player that is working on his offensive game. That was all I needed to hear. I went and looked at high school and college vids and he really looks smooth as a passer. No looks, nice catchable passes etc. I didn't see anything bad in his mechanics. Not a lot of wasted motion either. I don't know if he's any good in PnR. I didn't see a lot of that.

One video I saw that was real telling was a Georgia Tech practice where they were doing lateral movement drills and he was so quick and effortless in moving left and right. He's like a big cat. He was clearly the quickest on the entire team! Other guys looked sloppy and slow, but he was sharp and agile. With his 7'wingspan he's gonna be a terror on defense. Especially in this system where Mike likes his players to play the passing lanes. He's gonna be a top steals guy.

the flip side to what you're saying is that he produced at the college level just by being bigger and stronger than his opponents. He will lose that edge when he hits the pros and his production wasn't too impressive in college. will say the Westbrook/Evans comparison is interesting, especially when you look at the numbers, but Shumpert really only produced his junior year and those Georgia Tech teams disappointed and didn't meet expectation. I thought those Memphis and UCLA teams met or exceeded expectations

GustavBahler wrote:I can't remember, did the Knicks telegraph that they were selecting Hill last year? Maybe its a name that's going to come out of the blue.

Two drafts ago when they took Hill, if I remember correctly, they took him because he was the top big man prospect and was thought to be a higher pick--I can't even remember if they worked him out. When the Knicks took Toney Douglas I think they had worked him out twice but snuck him in with other bigger name players. So, if a guy comes in a couple of times for workouts and isn't the headliner, that may be the pick

SupremeCommander wrote:

nixluva wrote:

martin wrote:

nixluva wrote:The thing I like with a kid like Shumpert is that he's already a bigtime defender and he's a physical specimen. I remember reading how shocked the media was when seeing him amongst the other PG's. He was clearly bigger than all of them in more than one way. Then he goes on to post impressive measurements and athletic ability. I'm hoping that other teams don't change their view of him so that he's still there for us. He kind of reminds me a little bit of Tyreke Evans and Westbrook. I like other PG's in this draft as well, but if we're talking about addressing our need to improve defensively then why not take the best defensive PG in the draft, that also is very capable in other areas as well, plus a lot of upside.

I feel like we can't lose in this draft cuz there are so many good players that one of them will fall to us and if we get another pick we can add yet another useful prospect. This isn't you typical top heavy draft, but it's a solid draft IMO. We've gotta come out of this draft with 2 players. A PG and C. Don't know if we'll be that fortunate, but i'd be workin real hard to try and make that happen. Shumpert and Vucevic would be an A+ draft IMO.

i like the Tyreke Eans comparison, but the question remains: how good a basketball player is he? Is he a SG or PG? can he run a team? Can he get better?

Physical specimen aside, what's going on in his head? Is he Gerald Green or can he be better?

Yeah I wondered about that too, but IMO I see him as already better than Rondo was coming into the league. Similar player, but I don't recall anyone feeling that strong about his PG skills and certainly not his shooting. Shumpert has displayed excellent court vision on top of everything else he has, but like Jimmer, he was a primary option this year. That sometimes skews what a player really is. In an interview he said he views himself as a pure point, a defensive player that is working on his offensive game. That was all I needed to hear. I went and looked at high school and college vids and he really looks smooth as a passer. No looks, nice catchable passes etc. I didn't see anything bad in his mechanics. Not a lot of wasted motion either. I don't know if he's any good in PnR. I didn't see a lot of that.

One video I saw that was real telling was a Georgia Tech practice where they were doing lateral movement drills and he was so quick and effortless in moving left and right. He's like a big cat. He was clearly the quickest on the entire team! Other guys looked sloppy and slow, but he was sharp and agile. With his 7'wingspan he's gonna be a terror on defense. Especially in this system where Mike likes his players to play the passing lanes. He's gonna be a top steals guy.

the flip side to what you're saying is that he produced at the college level just by being bigger and stronger than his opponents. He will lose that edge when he hits the pros and his production wasn't too impressive in college. will say the Westbrook/Evans comparison is interesting, especially when you look at the numbers, but Shumpert really only produced his junior year and those Georgia Tech teams disappointed and didn't meet expectation. I thought those Memphis and UCLA teams met or exceeded expectations

 
Name		Hght w/o Shoes	Height w/shoes	Weight	Wingspan	Reach		No Step Vert	Max Vert  Bench	Agility	   Sprint
Isaiah Thomas	5' 8.75"	5' 10.25" 	186	6' 1.75"	7' 7.5"		31.5		40.0	  13	10.49	   3.14	
Kemba Walker	5' 11.5" 	6' 1"	 	184	6' 3.5"		7' 7.5"		32.0		39.5	  7	10.87	   3.16	
Norris Cole	6' 0.25" 	6' 1.75" 	174	6' 2.25"	7' 11.5"	29.5		38.5	  11	10.07	   3.22	
James Fredette	6' 0.75" 	6' 2.5"		196	6' 4.5"		8' 0.5"		28.0		33.0	  14	10.42	   3.21	
Shelvin Mack	6' 1"	 	6' 2.5"		209	6' 7.5"		8' 0.5"		32.0		39.0	  17	11.23	   3.18	
Andrew Goudelock6' 1.25" 	6' 2.75" 	198	6' 4.25"	8' 0.5"		32.5		37.0	  4	10.33	   3.10	
Brandon Knight	6' 1.5"		6' 3.25"	 177	6' 6.75"	8' 2.5"		29.0		37.5	  10	10.74	   3.07	
Charles Jenkins	6' 1.5"		6' 3.25" 	216	6' 7.5"		8' 0.5"		29.5		34.0	  16	11.68	   3.18	
Nolan Smith	6' 1.5"		6' 3.5"		188	6' 5.5"		8' 3"		28.5		34.0	  9	11.05	   3.17	
Josh Selby	6' 1.75" 	6' 3"		195	6' 5.25"	8' 2"		29.5		42.0	  5	11.13	   3.20	
Iman Shumpert	6' 4.25"	6' 5.5"		222	6' 9.5"		8' 3.5"		36.5		42.0	 18	11.10	   3.18	

itchetrigr wrote:

nixluva wrote:I really don't see how he's going to run into size and strength issues in the NBA. He's the size of a SG at the PG spot and he's strong already, long 7' wingspan, Quick and has a 42" vert. On what planet do they have a lot of guys like that he's gonna run into? As for him only doing it this year, that's how it works sometimes. Not every kid is an immediate success. He had to do more this year than in previous years as the team needed him to take on a bigger role. He adapted to it well and improved. Sure he's not a complete product yet, but what he's starting with is more than anyone else in terms of raw talent. No player cold match his overall physical package in this draft.

 
Name		Hght w/o Shoes	Height w/shoes	Weight	Wingspan	Reach		No Step Vert	Max Vert  Bench	Agility	   Sprint
Isaiah Thomas	5' 8.75"	5' 10.25" 	186	6' 1.75"	7' 7.5"		31.5		40.0	  13	10.49	   3.14	
Kemba Walker	5' 11.5" 	6' 1"	 	184	6' 3.5"		7' 7.5"		32.0		39.5	  7	10.87	   3.16	
Norris Cole	6' 0.25" 	6' 1.75" 	174	6' 2.25"	7' 11.5"	29.5		38.5	  11	10.07	   3.22	
James Fredette	6' 0.75" 	6' 2.5"		196	6' 4.5"		8' 0.5"		28.0		33.0	  14	10.42	   3.21	
Shelvin Mack	6' 1"	 	6' 2.5"		209	6' 7.5"		8' 0.5"		32.0		39.0	  17	11.23	   3.18	
Andrew Goudelock6' 1.25" 	6' 2.75" 	198	6' 4.25"	8' 0.5"		32.5		37.0	  4	10.33	   3.10	
Brandon Knight	6' 1.5"		6' 3.25"	 177	6' 6.75"	8' 2.5"		29.0		37.5	  10	10.74	   3.07	
Charles Jenkins	6' 1.5"		6' 3.25" 	216	6' 7.5"		8' 0.5"		29.5		34.0	  16	11.68	   3.18	
Nolan Smith	6' 1.5"		6' 3.5"		188	6' 5.5"		8' 3"		28.5		34.0	  9	11.05	   3.17	
Josh Selby	6' 1.75" 	6' 3"		195	6' 5.25"	8' 2"		29.5		42.0	  5	11.13	   3.20	
Iman Shumpert	6' 4.25"	6' 5.5"		222	6' 9.5"		8' 3.5"		36.5		42.0	 18	11.10	   3.18	

physically he's a freak obviously one of the top 3 physical specimens in the draft but whats the info on his skill level? is it so far behind that its dropping him to a late 1st or more realistically 2nd round? To me he sounds more like a project than someone who can contribute right away. I might be hesitent to use a 17th on this kid, buying a pick might be the only way he ends up on the knicks.

I guess i need to know a couple of things to consider him a worthy 17th pick. I feel as if we can get a starter at the 17 pick and we need to get this pick right. I am convinced he has reasonable upside as a role player and strong defensive player. That makes him worth of buying a pick in the late first round for him. But can he start at the 2-guard aside Billups, or can he become an eventual replacement for Billups at the point? He might be a good fit next to Billups because he can allow Billups to play off the ball and spot up. But i need to be convinced he can shoot well enough and has a high enough bball IQ to be a possible starter in the league at one of the back court position. If that is the case than i'm all for drafting him that high, i guess i just need to learn more about him though.

nixluva wrote:

martin wrote:

nixluva wrote:Maybe the Shumpert injury rumor is a smokescreen. Maybe the Knicks gave him a promise and they don't want him to workout for anymore teams.

when i first read the Shumpert got hurt and closed himself down in workout I thought it may have been a smokescreen. We shall see if he works out for anyone else going forward.

Something definitely to keep an eye on. Shades of Amare scheming?

Yeah have you seen this kid? He's a physical specimen and flat out beast at the PG/SG spot. Kids got guns and all kinds of explosion. Freakin 7' wingspan and 42" vert. If they saw that he could shoot and pass, i see no way they let him get past them. After enduring the awful defense from TD as Rondo abused him, that would be enough for Donnie to want to finally get a kid like Westbrook who he loved.

So is the Selby blurb a smokescreen too? Or is this another one of the trillion cases of a fan picking and choosing where to read in between the lines?

martin wrote:

Juice wrote:

nixluva wrote:

martin wrote:

nixluva wrote:Maybe the Shumpert injury rumor is a smokescreen. Maybe the Knicks gave him a promise and they don't want him to workout for anymore teams.

when i first read the Shumpert got hurt and closed himself down in workout I thought it may have been a smokescreen. We shall see if he works out for anyone else going forward.

Something definitely to keep an eye on. Shades of Amare scheming?

Yeah have you seen this kid? He's a physical specimen and flat out beast at the PG/SG spot. Kids got guns and all kinds of explosion. Freakin 7' wingspan and 42" vert. If they saw that he could shoot and pass, i see no way they let him get past them. After enduring the awful defense from TD as Rondo abused him, that would be enough for Donnie to want to finally get a kid like Westbrook who he loved.

So is the Selby blurb a smokescreen too? Or is this another one of the trillion cases of a fan picking and choosing where to read in between the lines?

Selby had a poor workout and was invited back. Why dont you tell us why you think it's like what happened with Shumpert.

For his part, Shumpert (who was eighth in the NCAA in steals with 2.7 per game) said he held his own on both ends of the court. Ford has him ranked 41st in his Top 100, in large part because of his college shooting numbers (.406 from the field and .278 from 3-point range last season).

"I shot it real well. I impressed everybody. They all said I couldn't shoot, and I shot it well," said Shumpert, who estimated he made 17 or 18 of 25 NBA 3-point shots during shooting drills. He is scheduled to workout for the Cavs, Suns, Celtics and Bobcats prior to the June 23 draft.

Also in the house Thursday was Florida State small forward Chris Singleton, an intriguing prospect because he is considered perhaps the top overall lockdown defender in this year's draft.

I asked Singleton which NBA defender he tries to emulate, and as I mentioned in today's chat, I was left disappointed when he mentioned Bruce Bowen rather than someone more conventional, such as DeShawn Stevenson or Tony Allen.

If he is taken by the Knicks, he likely would begin the season spelling Carmelo Anthony at the small forward position and/or Amare Stoudemire at the 4.

"At the 3 and the 4 I'd get to learn a lot. You've got the No. 1 power foward and maybe the No. 1 small forward in the country, and it would just be an honor if I get a chance to play along with them," said Singleton, who is projected to be selected 12th (by Utah) in Ford's latest mock draft. "If you do good, the whole city is behind you."

In closing, with the draft now just two weeks away, the time has come for me to issue my first prediction of who the Knicks will take at No. 17 (my choice is subject to change depending on what transpires in the next two weeks). My educated guess at this point is Nikola Vujevic, followed by Klay Thompson and Lucas Nogueira, the Brazilian big man who the Knicks will get a closer look at this weekend at the adidas Eurocamp in Italy.

PresIke wrote:so, td is now a poor defender?

huh?

Yeah, he's terrible. He is the culprit on most of the opposing teams scores. Whether he gambles for a steal or is staring at the ball while his man pops out for an open 3. Or he guards rose/rondo out at the 1/2 court line and gets burned. Anyone who thinks he plays good d needs to pay more attention or just learn the game better honestly. I miss feltons nasty defense.

Juice wrote:I doubt we've guaranteed any player at this point we'd pick him if he's there and that's a lot of workouts to be scheduled after a guarantee. Selby is Melo's boy, therefore we're giving him a little special treatment here

Childs2Dudley wrote:Selby, Shampert - these guys are not point guards. We have this type of guy in Toney Douglas. We need an actual PG here.

Westbrook isn't really a PG either, but it works for some teams. Both Selby and Shumpert have very good court Vision. Shumpert being a taller point gives him a very good angle of view. When interviewed Shumpert said that he sees himself as a Pure Point and not a combo guard. Selby views himself as a combo guard. I feel comfortable that Shumpert sees himself as a PG 1st and foremost. He was placed in a position to have to score more this season. I'm sure they had him run PnR and so forth to see if he was a capable play maker in his Ny workout.

AnubisADL wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Childs2Dudley wrote:Selby, Shampert - these guys are not point guards. We have this type of guy in Toney Douglas. We need an actual PG here.

Westbrook isn't really a PG either, but it works for some teams. Both Selby and Shumpert have very good court Vision. Shumpert being a taller point gives him a very good angle of view. When interviewed Shumpert said that he sees himself as a Pure Point and not a combo guard. Selby views himself as a combo guard. I feel comfortable that Shumpert sees himself as a PG 1st and foremost. He was placed in a position to have to score more this season. I'm sure they had him run PnR and so forth to see if he was a capable play maker in his Ny workout.

His biggest criticisms are his decision making and shooting. Problem is he played 3 yrs of college ball.

Westbrook has the same problem, but that doesn't mean he's not an effective player. I think it's up to Donnie and Mike to determine if those critiques are well founded or not. I didn't see anything wrong with his form on his shot and they said he shot well in workouts. Players do improve and I think it's possible that a kid like him could grow into the role. From what I saw of him he already looks better than TD in terms of court vision and ability to deliver catchable passes. Like most players you take the good with the bad if the good is on an elite level. I wouldn't say that Rose is a pure point either, but I would take him in a heartbeat. From what I saw this kid looks more comfortable than Rondo already.