[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

Knicks' or Cavs' situation?


Author Poll
Bonn1997
Posts: 38654
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
Which situation would you prefer?
Lottery picks 1 and 4, lots of cap space in 2012, many upcoming 1st round picks
Carmelo and Amare, limited cap space, few 1st round picks
View Results


Author Thread
Swishfm3
Posts: 23309
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 3/28/2003
Member: #392
5/18/2011  9:41 PM
misterearl wrote:"Situation" or "ownership"?

It was Dolan who pressed the panic button.

I miss Ernie Grnfeld

Thats speculation.

anyway...I'll trade proven talent for "potential" any day.

AUTOADVERT
martin
Posts: 76215
Alba Posts: 108
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #2
USA
5/18/2011  9:56 PM
Swishfm3 wrote:
misterearl wrote:"Situation" or "ownership"?

It was Dolan who pressed the panic button.

I miss Ernie Grnfeld

Thats speculation.

anyway...I'll trade proven talent for "potential" any day.

it's pretty much confirmed that Dolan lead negotiations on Melo deal or at least pushed for completion under terms that Donnie would not have done so on his own.

Official sponsor of the PURE KNICKS LOVE Program
toodarkmark
Posts: 21145
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 1/2/2004
Member: #515
USA
5/18/2011  10:10 PM
Everyone sweats draft picks, but so often they don't work out. Irving might blow out his knee and he's done. He's already missed almost the entire year. Greg Oden anyone? And at 4 who do you get, Kanter? Are you kidding me? Please. Over A'mare? Oh and PS, no free agents are clamoring to go to Cleveland.
I don't care what people think. People are stupid. - Charles Barkley
Anji
Posts: 25523
Alba Posts: 9
Joined: 4/14/2006
Member: #1122
USA
5/19/2011  12:20 AM    LAST EDITED: 5/19/2011  12:23 AM
I say the Cavs because Potentially they could have the gretest team since the 70 win Bulls. Literally they can build a team some where between the Dream Team and the Monstars from space Jam!!!!!!

And the way we had it we potentially could have had Gallo(dirk), Chandler(Shawn Marion), Moz, AR, Felton, Amare, Melo, Paul or Deron(our pick) and DHoward........ plus an assortment of picks ranging from Danny Granger type players to David Lee/Monta Ellis types(on the low end).

Because Potentially everything being good is better than actually being good. I mean there's no way Melo takes any deal where he gets his extension and of course the Knicks were going to be the team the Jazz called next to secretly shop Deron Williams(see how widely accept our assets where in the Melo deal). Potentially what would that team look like with another year of running Amare in the ground and needing to sign Chandler,Felton,Feilds,Gallo???? Great............ LOL

"Really, all Americans want is a cold beer, warm p***y, and some place to s**t with a door on it." - Mr. Ford
Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
5/19/2011  6:27 AM
loweyecue wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:There is no Amare Stoudemire or Carmelo Anthony in this draft.

At least three 2012 FAs are better than Amare and Carmelo. Unless you have a top 10 NBA player (and we don't), you're better off with an ordinary all-star or even borderline all-star on a rookie contract than what we have. We're an average team with below average opportunity for improvement.

OK so what should we have done? Retained the players we had been right at around .500 with no hope of ever landing anyone in the top 10?

Where's that search function??? I've written about this many times already. It should be in all the Carmelo trade threads.

EwingsGlass
Posts: 27500
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 4/29/2005
Member: #893
USA
5/19/2011  7:22 AM
Do you think the Cavs wouldn't trade both 1st rders and some more for Melo or Amare? I think they would.
You know I gonna spin wit it
Knixkik
Posts: 35448
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #11
USA
5/19/2011  7:56 AM
EwingsGlass wrote:Do you think the Cavs wouldn't trade both 1st rders and some more for Melo or Amare? I think they would.

Yeah they would. This is a no-brainer. Always take the certain over the uncertain. Odds of either of these players becoming at the level of Stoudemire and Melo, if not both, is pretty slim.
franco12
Posts: 34069
Alba Posts: 4
Joined: 2/19/2004
Member: #599
USA
5/19/2011  8:07 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
JrZyHuStLa wrote:There is no Amare Stoudemire or Carmelo Anthony in this draft.

At least three 2012 FAs are better than Amare and Carmelo. Unless you have a top 10 NBA player (and we don't), you're better off with an ordinary all-star or even borderline all-star on a rookie contract than what we have. We're an average team with below average opportunity for improvement.

The bold part perfectly sums up our situation! I mean, you might argue with whether we are average or slightly above average.

But unless Walsh or the front office can add more gems like Moz through unconventional means, like NBDL, unsigned guys or buying picks and lucking out with above place talent, there is a real limit to how we can improve.

Nalod
Posts: 71155
Alba Posts: 155
Joined: 12/24/2003
Member: #508
USA
5/19/2011  8:08 AM

NY fans need the hot item to be a competitive product fighting for a large, but not infinite entertainment dollars. A big market had to have its "stars" to market.

From a pure entertainment standpoint watching stars is fun. I used to go to Bobcat games and the stars sold tickets. No one in charlotte was a Cavs fan but about 5 years ago when Lebron really became a huge draw they would sell out and Cavs jersey's were everywhere. Business wise I get it.

Im not afraid of the future and a team rebuilding with youth takes time. What I found very enjoyable the 1st 50 games with the yoots was the team was in the game most nites, won more than they lost and were just plain fun to watch! I can't say they there championship quality or ever would be. Future trades, draft picks, asset piling, etc etc could have happened and who knows how we draft, or can trade up to get a certain player.

Drafts have no guarantees but you sure as hell pay big for established ones.

There is nothing better than growing your own players. Ewing was loved in NY. Management feared his departure and he used that leverage to his advantage. NY management runs on fear.

There is a time to rebuild and a time to succeed. Spurs, Bulls, Lakers and Celtics in the last 30 years have endured rebuilding and had great success. We have endured failure and instead of cashing in with high picks and salary cap we compromise.

Melo and Amare will keep us relevant which satisfies the hardcore fan and it satisfies revenue expectations.

What I fear is it won't satisfy the requirements to build a true champion.

Boston's "Big" three had a youthier deep bench the year they won it. Miami will need that to win.

Celtics got a championship, but if its the only one has it failed in the longer run? Was it a great season or was it a great team?

Can a fan truely love Pierce? The difficult personality of KG? Or do they love them because they wear the green jersey?

I guess the hero's welcome that the Toxic Marbury received is evident of either our lust for stars or how desperate we are to win. He was a vile egocentric personality before he got here and even some still had sympathy toward him when MDA put him in the doghouse.

If winning is the only thing Im afraid we miss the best part which is the "Journey".

I am reminded by the Islanders in the 1970's whom won 4 straight stanley cups. At the time they also broke the record for winning the most straight playoff series. In their fifth attempt to win they went to the finals before losing a very tough hard fought long series against Gretky's Oilers. The previous champion Canadians had won 5 straight cups. That team was constructed by them trading aging established players to new expansion franchises who needed to make a big impact to recoup the investment. The St. Louis Blues went to the finals their first year in existance. Remember this is before free agency!

The Islanders instead kept all the their picks, grew a solid nucleus and became the first franchise to win a major championship in the shortest time period. I think it was 5 years. After three years them had made the playoffs and got better each year.

Sometimes the journey is more fun than the destination.

The Islanders had a 6 year run. The year before they won their first they made some incredible series and became the first team to come back from a 3-1 series. The next 4 seasons were amazing with the same group. the last year of the run they took it to the limit in the final series and lost, but lost like true warriors on the ice.

Bringing in free agent stars denies that bond. It denies a culture of winning. The Spurs have, the Lakers have it, and maybe the celtics borrowed it from their storied history and superimposed it on their recent core. I don't think this is a "great celtic tradition" type team. But it beats the crap we got going on here.

Solace
Posts: 30002
Alba Posts: 20
Joined: 10/30/2003
Member: #479
USA
5/19/2011  8:10 AM    LAST EDITED: 5/19/2011  8:10 AM
Sadly, the Cavs situation is probably better, but you're looking at another 4 years before they're a playoff team again, IMHO. They will probably have a string of being a perennial lottery team for a while, before they bust out with a lot of lottery picks and look like a good team. In four to six years, the Cavs are a good playoff team, kinda Hawks-like, in my opinion.

As for the Knicks, I don't see any room for growth. I just don't see how we improve to where we need to go with a roster of two and a half guys that are already at or past their prime, nobody else, very few picks and no cap.

Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
franco12
Posts: 34069
Alba Posts: 4
Joined: 2/19/2004
Member: #599
USA
5/19/2011  8:10 AM
JrZyHuStLa wrote:There is no Amare Stoudemire or Carmelo Anthony in this draft.

You're sure?

And what about next year? And the next three?

Nalod
Posts: 71155
Alba Posts: 155
Joined: 12/24/2003
Member: #508
USA
5/19/2011  8:18 AM
Solace wrote:Sadly, the Cavs situation is probably better, but you're looking at another 4 years before they're a playoff team again, IMHO. They will probably have a string of being a perennial lottery team for a while, before they bust out with a lot of lottery picks and look like a good team. In four to six years, the Cavs are a good playoff team, kinda Hawks-like, in my opinion.

As for the Knicks, I don't see any room for growth. I just don't see how we improve to where we need to go with a roster of two and a half guys that are already at or past their prime, nobody else, very few picks and no cap.

Yeah, it might be a few years before they make a splash, but the journey of watching a young team come together is fun. Championships can be made, borrowed, or bought.

Personally I think Bostons team a few years ago built on the starphuch principle was thin compared to what Spurs or lakers have done. Maybe Dallas is on the ultimate journey? Bitter disappointment and perhaps final redemption?

Talk about brand building if they do! A whole generation will carry that forward. Or OK if they win?

Think anyone will care in Miami a year or two when the superfriends break up?

Think about why the knicks of the early 70's still resonate to this day!

Solace
Posts: 30002
Alba Posts: 20
Joined: 10/30/2003
Member: #479
USA
5/19/2011  8:28 AM    LAST EDITED: 5/19/2011  8:33 AM
Nalod wrote:
Solace wrote:Sadly, the Cavs situation is probably better, but you're looking at another 4 years before they're a playoff team again, IMHO. They will probably have a string of being a perennial lottery team for a while, before they bust out with a lot of lottery picks and look like a good team. In four to six years, the Cavs are a good playoff team, kinda Hawks-like, in my opinion.

As for the Knicks, I don't see any room for growth. I just don't see how we improve to where we need to go with a roster of two and a half guys that are already at or past their prime, nobody else, very few picks and no cap.

Yeah, it might be a few years before they make a splash, but the journey of watching a young team come together is fun. Championships can be made, borrowed, or bought.

Personally I think Bostons team a few years ago built on the starphuch principle was thin compared to what Spurs or lakers have done. Maybe Dallas is on the ultimate journey? Bitter disappointment and perhaps final redemption?

Talk about brand building if they do! A whole generation will carry that forward. Or OK if they win?

Think anyone will care in Miami a year or two when the superfriends break up?

Think about why the knicks of the early 70's still resonate to this day!

You're right about Boston, but Boston's was built on three top pieces. KG has been a top 5 player before and Ray Allen and Paul Pierce have definitely been top 15 at points in their careers as well. The Celtics did it with three guys, instead of the two that we have, some surrounding players and some good draft picks. If we're following Boston's model, we definitely came up short in the execution, because we gave up almost every asset we had.

Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
holfresh
Posts: 38679
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/14/2006
Member: #1081

5/19/2011  9:59 AM
Doesn't the Knicks have more cap space than the Cavs?
Killa4luv
Posts: 27769
Alba Posts: 51
Joined: 6/23/2002
Member: #261
USA
5/19/2011  10:32 AM
Solace wrote:
Nalod wrote:
Solace wrote:Sadly, the Cavs situation is probably better, but you're looking at another 4 years before they're a playoff team again, IMHO. They will probably have a string of being a perennial lottery team for a while, before they bust out with a lot of lottery picks and look like a good team. In four to six years, the Cavs are a good playoff team, kinda Hawks-like, in my opinion.

As for the Knicks, I don't see any room for growth. I just don't see how we improve to where we need to go with a roster of two and a half guys that are already at or past their prime, nobody else, very few picks and no cap.

Yeah, it might be a few years before they make a splash, but the journey of watching a young team come together is fun. Championships can be made, borrowed, or bought.

Personally I think Bostons team a few years ago built on the starphuch principle was thin compared to what Spurs or lakers have done. Maybe Dallas is on the ultimate journey? Bitter disappointment and perhaps final redemption?

Talk about brand building if they do! A whole generation will carry that forward. Or OK if they win?

Think anyone will care in Miami a year or two when the superfriends break up?

Think about why the knicks of the early 70's still resonate to this day!

You're right about Boston, but Boston's was built on three top pieces. KG has been a top 5 player before and Ray Allen and Paul Pierce have definitely been top 15 at points in their careers as well. The Celtics did it with three guys, instead of the two that we have, some surrounding players and some good draft picks. If we're following Boston's model, we definitely came up short in the execution, because we gave up almost every asset we had.


False. They got all of their guys in their 30s. They had a very small window and made the most of it.
OUr guys are still young in their primes and Melo hasn't peaked yet. We have 3-4 years b4 he's 30. Weve got time and oppurunities to get things right.
Killa4luv
Posts: 27769
Alba Posts: 51
Joined: 6/23/2002
Member: #261
USA
5/19/2011  10:33 AM
Nalod wrote:
Solace wrote:Sadly, the Cavs situation is probably better, but you're looking at another 4 years before they're a playoff team again, IMHO. They will probably have a string of being a perennial lottery team for a while, before they bust out with a lot of lottery picks and look like a good team. In four to six years, the Cavs are a good playoff team, kinda Hawks-like, in my opinion.

As for the Knicks, I don't see any room for growth. I just don't see how we improve to where we need to go with a roster of two and a half guys that are already at or past their prime, nobody else, very few picks and no cap.

Yeah, it might be a few years before they make a splash, but the journey of watching a young team come together is fun. Championships can be made, borrowed, or bought.

Personally I think Bostons team a few years ago built on the starphuch principle was thin compared to what Spurs or lakers have done. Maybe Dallas is on the ultimate journey? Bitter disappointment and perhaps final redemption?

Talk about brand building if they do! A whole generation will carry that forward. Or OK if they win?

Think anyone will care in Miami a year or two when the superfriends break up?

Think about why the knicks of the early 70's still resonate to this day!


They resonate because they won. If our knicks win they'll resonate the same way with a new generation of fans. Its not about how you do it, as much as its about doing it. U can't buy championships in bball the way you can in baseball.

U try to put teams together to win. Winning is still a very hard thing to do.

Moonangie
Posts: 24765
Alba Posts: 5
Joined: 7/9/2009
Member: #2788

5/19/2011  10:59 AM
Killa4luv wrote:
Nalod wrote:
Solace wrote:Sadly, the Cavs situation is probably better, but you're looking at another 4 years before they're a playoff team again, IMHO. They will probably have a string of being a perennial lottery team for a while, before they bust out with a lot of lottery picks and look like a good team. In four to six years, the Cavs are a good playoff team, kinda Hawks-like, in my opinion.

As for the Knicks, I don't see any room for growth. I just don't see how we improve to where we need to go with a roster of two and a half guys that are already at or past their prime, nobody else, very few picks and no cap.

Yeah, it might be a few years before they make a splash, but the journey of watching a young team come together is fun. Championships can be made, borrowed, or bought.

Personally I think Bostons team a few years ago built on the starphuch principle was thin compared to what Spurs or lakers have done. Maybe Dallas is on the ultimate journey? Bitter disappointment and perhaps final redemption?

Talk about brand building if they do! A whole generation will carry that forward. Or OK if they win?

Think anyone will care in Miami a year or two when the superfriends break up?

Think about why the knicks of the early 70's still resonate to this day!


They resonate because they won. If our knicks win they'll resonate the same way with a new generation of fans. Its not about how you do it, as much as its about doing it. U can't buy championships in bball the way you can in baseball.

U try to put teams together to win. Winning is still a very hard thing to do.

Well said.

Killa4luv
Posts: 27769
Alba Posts: 51
Joined: 6/23/2002
Member: #261
USA
5/19/2011  11:14 AM    LAST EDITED: 5/19/2011  11:33 AM
MS wrote:I really don't think the Knicks are in a great position. The Bulls have a team of emerging talent at nearly every position and cap room and the Heat will always be the better team.

The trade always will be the wrong decision. Dallas has one superstar and a bunch of very good talent around him. The play was to develop Moz, Gallo, AR and spend cap room on someon like Deandre Jordan who can defend the goal while the big guys develop there games.


well thats not what Dallas did. Their whole team is full of people from other teams. who have they drafted thats a big part of the team? Dirk 12 years ago, and the only other person on their roster who they drafted was JJ Barea. and btw they haven't won anything...yet.

The key in the NBA is to acquire a superstar, and build around that superstar the best way possible. everybody is looking for a blueprint to follow and there isn't one.

If you draft a star great. if you sign a star great. however you do it, build around that star the best way possible. Dallas Mavs have had every 2nd and 3rd tier player in the league on their team trying to get it right.

Swishfm3
Posts: 23309
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 3/28/2003
Member: #392
5/19/2011  7:07 PM
martin wrote:
Swishfm3 wrote:
misterearl wrote:"Situation" or "ownership"?

It was Dolan who pressed the panic button.

I miss Ernie Grnfeld

Thats speculation.

anyway...I'll trade proven talent for "potential" any day.

it's pretty much confirmed that Dolan lead negotiations on Melo deal or at least pushed for completion under terms that Donnie would not have done so on his own.

Confirmed by who? Inside "sources"? Walsh came out and said that he was the man behind the deal. That was enough for me...but anyway, this topic has been beaten to death

jrodmc
Posts: 32927
Alba Posts: 50
Joined: 11/24/2004
Member: #805
USA
5/20/2011  8:43 AM
Everyone on the board's screaming about suffering through SHHHHEEEEEHITTTTTT for two plus years while Donnie Boy and the Magic Eyetalian Potato Chip laid waste to the IT era pukepile they inherited. They used that time getting us MONEY to buy stars, while the whiners ran amuck looking wistfully at the Bostons and the Lakers and ME-AM-MEEEEEES.

Now we want draft picks and more money because we got swept in the first round with only half a season of Melo's man tits. Now the whiners are staring wistfully at the Bulls and OKC and their homegrown BULLLLLLSHEEEHITTT (but wait, Booz came from where, Perkins came from what round of the draft for OKC?). Major Manbresses channeled BK on several occasions and had us within the thickness of your girl's IUD of winning a game or two in the first round. All by his lonesome. Even carrying around those DD cups.

I like our team. I f-ing LOVE STAT. He's a horse. Melo gets a full year here back home (where in the best of all worlds, he should have been his whole career), staring up at those banners (instead of looking at highlights of Kiki and Dan Issel's hockey mouth), and I can already smell two or three 50 point back to back nights. He should just change his jersey number to 30 now and be done with it.

Maybe we catch lightning in a bottle at 17. Most likely we don't. Either way, we're still better off than spending day and night drooling over "unlimited upsides" and "high court IQ" while struggling to win 30 games. I liked Chandler. I liked Moz. I was tired of watching Felton get it, and then not get it, and then get it again. Gallo's not leading anyone to the promised land, and anyone who continues to pine for him is part of the problem on this board.

Martin, I respectfully submit that you start banning the whiners. Or at least restricting their access to the general NBA thread. Or the Alba thread.

Honestly folks, I'm f-ing depressed enough with the sweep. Let me enjoy the possibilities of MiaMEEE getting beat, maybe the Dirkster and Cuban rolling in love on the floor with Lil' Davey Stern in June, and the hope of what next season will bring. Bring the love fellas -- we ain't the Nyets.

Knicks' or Cavs' situation?

©2001-2025 ultimateknicks.comm All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.

Terms of Use and Privacy Policy