bernard wrote:You really think the problem was Melo? I'm not that big a fan of his, but he was clearly our best player and perhaps the best player on the court for that series. Want to pick on his shooting percentage -- who would you have preferred taking contested shots?

We lost because they're better. We got swept because we were injured and the guys who were forced into bigger roles than they normally play did not step up.

That's the most disappointing part for me. I really thought Fields would break out at some point. He sucked. As did TD. We needed more from them to make it respectable; we needed to be fully healthy and really lucky to win.

I'm not picking on Melo's shooting %. Its an observation. Melo cost us game one, no doubt. Easy scapegoat there, because the effort was lacking, but he played his ass off the rest of the series. Of course with Amare out there is a lot less pressure isnt there? Melo's an easy target here with his 16-34 postseason record, but Melo didnt cost us anything if your being realistic. We lost because Boston so far superior to us right now its not even funny. What is funny (to me) is posters crying about some time out calls or poor coaching strategies when we got plastered by a clearly superior team.

We lost because Boston's players were better. A lot better.

fishmike wrote:

bernard wrote:You really think the problem was Melo? I'm not that big a fan of his, but he was clearly our best player and perhaps the best player on the court for that series. Want to pick on his shooting percentage -- who would you have preferred taking contested shots?

We lost because they're better. We got swept because we were injured and the guys who were forced into bigger roles than they normally play did not step up.

That's the most disappointing part for me. I really thought Fields would break out at some point. He sucked. As did TD. We needed more from them to make it respectable; we needed to be fully healthy and really lucky to win.

I think your missing the point a bit... the PROBLEM was the Celtics. The Knicks were overmatched. Thats really my point to all this. The coach wasnt winning us this series, and any chance we hoped to have of winning this series was based around (the hope of) game changing performances from BOTH our star players. We got those performances from Melo in game 2 and Amare in game 1 but never together and 1-4 for each isnt getting it done.

I'm not picking on Melo's shooting %. Its an observation. Melo cost us game one, no doubt. Easy scapegoat there, because the effort was lacking, but he played his ass off the rest of the series. Of course with Amare out there is a lot less pressure isnt there? Melo's an easy target here with his 16-34 postseason record, but Melo didnt cost us anything if your being realistic. We lost because Boston so far superior to us right now its not even funny. What is funny (to me) is posters crying about some time out calls or poor coaching strategies when we got plastered by a clearly superior team.

We lost because Boston's players were better. A lot better.

So you can flat-out say that Melo cost us game 1, but would you admit that MDA cost us game 2? To go a step further, MDA takes a hit for game 4 aswell. Rondo was abusing TD the whole game, yet it took until the 4th Q for MDA to try AC on him? AC picked him up full court and pressured him and the Celts into a bunch of turnovers. No Monday morning QB here. I was calling for this while watching the game. This is another knock on MDA, his in game adjustments are atrocious.

fishmike wrote:I guess being a Yankee fan I've been spoiled. The Yankees won titles on teams built around home grown talent. In later years, and even during those runs when new players were added the thought in Yankee land was they had to earn their stripes. Yes, its painfully cliche, but 100% true. Tino Martinez was booed after a terrible April start in his first year. ARod was booed. Knobloch was booed. When Giambi was signed following an MVP season his shortcomings were talked about and his huge contract questioned, and yes, when he struggled he was booed also. Only after these various players came through in big games when it counted the most were they fully embraced.

Yet here in Knick land its so much different. Melo and Amare are superstars that cant do wrong. Every coach here from JVG, to Chaney, Wilkins, Larry Brown, Isiah and now MDA are blamed for not getting the most of the players and causing the team to lose for a variety of reasons... play calling, substitution patterns, end of game management. You name it, pretty sure a Knick coach can find a way to screw it up.

The same people here who place Melo on a pedestal are the same ones that want the coach replaced

I'm wondering why MDA is judged by these people so differently.

Melo has played in 8 post seasons now (every year since being in the league).

Year by year since Melo has been in the league:
1-4, 1-4, 1-4, 1-4, 0-4, 10-6, 2-4, 0-4

Thats a 16-34 career record in the playoffs. In ten playoff series Melo is 2-8. Whats worse is in HALF of Melo's post seasons he's shot well below 40% (.328, .333, .364, .375) and his overall all FG% in the playoffs is 41%. We are in Jamal Crawford territory here.

THIS year:
4 games Melo averaged 26ppg and 10 rebs. Sounds good... except that he shot 37%. Games 1, 3 and 4 he shot 33%.

Which brings us to the point: Why when Melo fails in the playoffs do we need to get him better support? But when MDA fails its because the system is gimmicky, its because he's failed to get quality play out of Darko, Anthony Randolph or Sheldon Williams or some other reason? And if any of those "reasons" are questioned your a coach apologist and a Melo hater?

The TRUTH and FACT is:

We have a pair of forwards we are building around who are both gifted scorers, although both have some significant holes in their games. Amare is not a good rebounder and he's not a force on the boards, and his defense in the post is poor. Melo on the other hand has shown he can be a true force on the boards, he can set up teammates and he can be an excellent defender. The problem is when his shot isnt falling he doesnt appear to be overly interested in those things and his effort is definitely an issue.

If we are going to move forward with these players this is the best coach. We need volume shooting from these guys and we need the highest % looks they can get. We need a supporting cast who can cover up some of their shortcomings. We need a big body up front (my vote is still OK4 or Varejao). We need an elite defender on the wing and we need a shooter. If Michael Redd could give us what Kyle Korver gives the Bulls that would be a great fit (assuming he's healthy).

Anyway we can talk how to fix the team all summer and we will, but just as some people on this board hope the players get their chances to play with a better cast and erase previous playoff failures I do hope the coach is extended the same. Rick Adelman or Patrick Ewing isnt changing the Melo/Amare that the league has seen over the last 8 years. If anything MDA's system covers up a lot of the deficiencies, so long as you have guys who can score.

SO WHO's TO BLAME:

Nobody. We lost because the Celtics were not only better, they are a lot better. This roster has massive holes and they were painfully exposed. This starts a 2 year process of building up the rest of this roster until such a point as we can honestly evaluate what it will take to be an elite team. While I like a bunch of certainl players really what we need is a solid group of rotation players. Fields, Douglas and Shawn Williams are nice role players for the cost. If JJ will play for vets minimum (ish) thats a nice fit also. After that its slim pickins.. Walker is inconsistant and loafs. AC is old. Turiaf is made of glass. Sheldon Williams moves like a 3 legged turtle, I dont see a keeper in group.... Walsh has some work to do

Could not agree more with you. I've been saying this for a decade now. For the Knicks, it's always the coaches fault. This is why we had a decade of the players running the asylum

nyk4ever wrote:i don't think anybody failed this postseason, coach nor players. injuries to a team lacking depth isn't going to bode well.

fishmike wrote:I guess being a Yankee fan I've been spoiled. The Yankees won titles on teams built around home grown talent. In later years, and even during those runs when new players were added the thought in Yankee land was they had to earn their stripes. Yes, its painfully cliche, but 100% true. Tino Martinez was booed after a terrible April start in his first year. ARod was booed. Knobloch was booed. When Giambi was signed following an MVP season his shortcomings were talked about and his huge contract questioned, and yes, when he struggled he was booed also. Only after these various players came through in big games when it counted the most were they fully embraced.

Yet here in Knick land its so much different. Melo and Amare are superstars that cant do wrong. Every coach here from JVG, to Chaney, Wilkins, Larry Brown, Isiah and now MDA are blamed for not getting the most of the players and causing the team to lose for a variety of reasons... play calling, substitution patterns, end of game management. You name it, pretty sure a Knick coach can find a way to screw it up.

The same people here who place Melo on a pedestal are the same ones that want the coach replaced

I'm wondering why MDA is judged by these people so differently.

Melo has played in 8 post seasons now (every year since being in the league).

Year by year since Melo has been in the league:
1-4, 1-4, 1-4, 1-4, 0-4, 10-6, 2-4, 0-4

Thats a 16-34 career record in the playoffs. In ten playoff series Melo is 2-8. Whats worse is in HALF of Melo's post seasons he's shot well below 40% (.328, .333, .364, .375) and his overall all FG% in the playoffs is 41%. We are in Jamal Crawford territory here.

THIS year:
4 games Melo averaged 26ppg and 10 rebs. Sounds good... except that he shot 37%. Games 1, 3 and 4 he shot 33%.

Which brings us to the point: Why when Melo fails in the playoffs do we need to get him better support? But when MDA fails its because the system is gimmicky, its because he's failed to get quality play out of Darko, Anthony Randolph or Sheldon Williams or some other reason? And if any of those "reasons" are questioned your a coach apologist and a Melo hater?

The TRUTH and FACT is:

We have a pair of forwards we are building around who are both gifted scorers, although both have some significant holes in their games. Amare is not a good rebounder and he's not a force on the boards, and his defense in the post is poor. Melo on the other hand has shown he can be a true force on the boards, he can set up teammates and he can be an excellent defender. The problem is when his shot isnt falling he doesnt appear to be overly interested in those things and his effort is definitely an issue.

If we are going to move forward with these players this is the best coach. We need volume shooting from these guys and we need the highest % looks they can get. We need a supporting cast who can cover up some of their shortcomings. We need a big body up front (my vote is still OK4 or Varejao). We need an elite defender on the wing and we need a shooter. If Michael Redd could give us what Kyle Korver gives the Bulls that would be a great fit (assuming he's healthy).

Anyway we can talk how to fix the team all summer and we will, but just as some people on this board hope the players get their chances to play with a better cast and erase previous playoff failures I do hope the coach is extended the same. Rick Adelman or Patrick Ewing isnt changing the Melo/Amare that the league has seen over the last 8 years. If anything MDA's system covers up a lot of the deficiencies, so long as you have guys who can score.

SO WHO's TO BLAME:

Nobody. We lost because the Celtics were not only better, they are a lot better. This roster has massive holes and they were painfully exposed. This starts a 2 year process of building up the rest of this roster until such a point as we can honestly evaluate what it will take to be an elite team. While I like a bunch of certainl players really what we need is a solid group of rotation players. Fields, Douglas and Shawn Williams are nice role players for the cost. If JJ will play for vets minimum (ish) thats a nice fit also. After that its slim pickins.. Walker is inconsistant and loafs. AC is old. Turiaf is made of glass. Sheldon Williams moves like a 3 legged turtle, I dont see a keeper in group.... Walsh has some work to do

Come on bro, This very team was booded this year at the Garden...I think it was MDA who asked fans and the press not to boo the young team...

No one is blaming the coach, but we saw how MDA was out coached in a series, that we should not have won, given out injuries or our depth...
We saw his system exposed...Playoff basketball is about defense, making stops, rebounding, slowing the pace down, half court offense...There are low scoring games across the NBA, our philosophy is to outscore the opponent...Our team wasn't prepared for these type of games...It's not what we practiced all year...

Do you really think the fans are going to boo a hurt Amare who is making an effort to play despite a back injury?
Do you think fans are going to boo Carmelo the first game back at the Garden after dropping 42 pts, 17 reb and 6 asst on a team with 4 all stars...He single handedly carried the team in game 2...I think Marv Albert who called them "Carmelo and 4 guys" against the Boston Celtics...

You want to know why MDA took a hit in this playoff series, you might have missed the game post, allow me to summarize:

Rondo started out game two by performing a layup drill against the Knicks and Tony Douglass...It seems like out team was not coached on how to stop a single man pursuit of making a lay ups...It was point out by JVG and later Mark Jackson that Douglass needed to stop Rondo from getting into the paint...Douglas was allowing him to get too deep into the paint...Some one on the sidelines needed to relay this message to Douglas, maybe you feel it's shouldn't be our coach...Maybe you fell like others here, players don't need to be coached this or other aspects of defense and defensive effort, they should already know...I, however, hold the coach responsible for this...If Douglas can't do it, get some on who can...

Let me add that our game strategy was not to guard Rondo, who is all star...Allow him, if you will, to take outside shots and allow to pass the ball freely at will to his teammates..Needless to say it didn't work...We backed off of Rondo allowing him to shoot, get into the lane, now drawing defense, so he easily dished out 20 assist in game three...

In games one and two, after calling 2 time outs down the stretch, Doc drew up two plays that worked, the three by Allen and the Post move by Garnett...We didn't have any time outs left with 10+ seconds on the clock in game one, so Melo took a hero shot and launched a long three...Melo drew criticism in the press...Clock management is on the coach...In game two, we drew up a play with Jeffries as an option if Melo was doubled with seconds left on the clock...U decide who takes a hit there...

In game 3, the Knicks were getting pounded, they made a 8-0 run with before half time with Anthony Carter orchestrating the offense... We never saw AC again in the game, we had a three point specialist, Mason, running the offense Mason was getting DNP's at the end of the season...This is after the coach said he is playing everyone to see who we will be playing come playoff time...The point here is, I'm not sure if he took in game notes of what's working and what's not working...

In game 4, it took him a while, but he inserted AC after seeing Mason wasn't doing a good job running the point...We all saw the results with AC...We lost anyway...

It's hard to boo an undermanned team when two stars are missing or injured in the playoffs...They also gave Boston all they could handle in game 1 and 2...It was easier to see the coaching short comings in this series...That's why MDA took a hit...Again, it's isn't his fault we lost...But asking for the players to be booed is a bit much...

The only reason MDA gets a pass, He hasn't coach the same 12 guys for more then 3 months at a time in 3 years..Thats really really tough on any coach

martin wrote:

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:

bernard wrote:You really think the problem was Melo? I'm not that big a fan of his, but he was clearly our best player and perhaps the best player on the court for that series. Want to pick on his shooting percentage -- who would you have preferred taking contested shots?

We lost because they're better. We got swept because we were injured and the guys who were forced into bigger roles than they normally play did not step up.

That's the most disappointing part for me. I really thought Fields would break out at some point. He sucked. As did TD. We needed more from them to make it respectable; we needed to be fully healthy and really lucky to win.

I think your missing the point a bit... the PROBLEM was the Celtics. The Knicks were overmatched. Thats really my point to all this. The coach wasnt winning us this series, and any chance we hoped to have of winning this series was based around (the hope of) game changing performances from BOTH our star players. We got those performances from Melo in game 2 and Amare in game 1 but never together and 1-4 for each isnt getting it done.

I'm not picking on Melo's shooting %. Its an observation. Melo cost us game one, no doubt. Easy scapegoat there, because the effort was lacking, but he played his ass off the rest of the series. Of course with Amare out there is a lot less pressure isnt there? Melo's an easy target here with his 16-34 postseason record, but Melo didnt cost us anything if your being realistic. We lost because Boston so far superior to us right now its not even funny. What is funny (to me) is posters crying about some time out calls or poor coaching strategies when we got plastered by a clearly superior team.

We lost because Boston's players were better. A lot better.

So you can flat-out say that Melo cost us game 1, but would you admit that MDA cost us game 2? To go a step further, MDA takes a hit for game 4 aswell. Rondo was abusing TD the whole game, yet it took until the 4th Q for MDA to try AC on him? AC picked him up full court and pressured him and the Celts into a bunch of turnovers. No Monday morning QB here. I was calling for this while watching the game. This is another knock on MDA, his in game adjustments are atrocious.

I thought that AC should have played a lot more... but what you may be suggesting (without actually saying so) is that if MDA had JUST played AC for 30 or more minutes, the Knicks would have won, ie AC was the key to beating the Celtics.

If MDA does play AC and the Knicks still lose... Does the criticism stay but the focus moves on to not playing Sheldon or Brown?

Okay, you are being extreme here. I'm not saying we would have won, but MDA did his team no favors. His moves hurt an already hurting/undermanned team. Carmelo running the point in game three was a horrible move which took him away from the scoring areas he dominated in game 2. AC already had experience running the point for us when Billups was hurt and did well, why not use him?

fishmike wrote:I guess being a Yankee fan I've been spoiled. The Yankees won titles on teams built around home grown talent. In later years, and even during those runs when new players were added the thought in Yankee land was they had to earn their stripes. Yes, its painfully cliche, but 100% true. Tino Martinez was booed after a terrible April start in his first year. ARod was booed. Knobloch was booed. When Giambi was signed following an MVP season his shortcomings were talked about and his huge contract questioned, and yes, when he struggled he was booed also. Only after these various players came through in big games when it counted the most were they fully embraced.

Yet here in Knick land its so much different. Melo and Amare are superstars that cant do wrong. Every coach here from JVG, to Chaney, Wilkins, Larry Brown, Isiah and now MDA are blamed for not getting the most of the players and causing the team to lose for a variety of reasons... play calling, substitution patterns, end of game management. You name it, pretty sure a Knick coach can find a way to screw it up.

The same people here who place Melo on a pedestal are the same ones that want the coach replaced

I'm wondering why MDA is judged by these people so differently.

Melo has played in 8 post seasons now (every year since being in the league).

Year by year since Melo has been in the league:
1-4, 1-4, 1-4, 1-4, 0-4, 10-6, 2-4, 0-4

Thats a 16-34 career record in the playoffs. In ten playoff series Melo is 2-8. Whats worse is in HALF of Melo's post seasons he's shot well below 40% (.328, .333, .364, .375) and his overall all FG% in the playoffs is 41%. We are in Jamal Crawford territory here.

THIS year:
4 games Melo averaged 26ppg and 10 rebs. Sounds good... except that he shot 37%. Games 1, 3 and 4 he shot 33%.

Which brings us to the point: Why when Melo fails in the playoffs do we need to get him better support? But when MDA fails its because the system is gimmicky, its because he's failed to get quality play out of Darko, Anthony Randolph or Sheldon Williams or some other reason? And if any of those "reasons" are questioned your a coach apologist and a Melo hater?

The TRUTH and FACT is:

We have a pair of forwards we are building around who are both gifted scorers, although both have some significant holes in their games. Amare is not a good rebounder and he's not a force on the boards, and his defense in the post is poor. Melo on the other hand has shown he can be a true force on the boards, he can set up teammates and he can be an excellent defender. The problem is when his shot isnt falling he doesnt appear to be overly interested in those things and his effort is definitely an issue.

If we are going to move forward with these players this is the best coach. We need volume shooting from these guys and we need the highest % looks they can get. We need a supporting cast who can cover up some of their shortcomings. We need a big body up front (my vote is still OK4 or Varejao). We need an elite defender on the wing and we need a shooter. If Michael Redd could give us what Kyle Korver gives the Bulls that would be a great fit (assuming he's healthy).

Anyway we can talk how to fix the team all summer and we will, but just as some people on this board hope the players get their chances to play with a better cast and erase previous playoff failures I do hope the coach is extended the same. Rick Adelman or Patrick Ewing isnt changing the Melo/Amare that the league has seen over the last 8 years. If anything MDA's system covers up a lot of the deficiencies, so long as you have guys who can score.

SO WHO's TO BLAME:

Nobody. We lost because the Celtics were not only better, they are a lot better. This roster has massive holes and they were painfully exposed. This starts a 2 year process of building up the rest of this roster until such a point as we can honestly evaluate what it will take to be an elite team. While I like a bunch of certainl players really what we need is a solid group of rotation players. Fields, Douglas and Shawn Williams are nice role players for the cost. If JJ will play for vets minimum (ish) thats a nice fit also. After that its slim pickins.. Walker is inconsistant and loafs. AC is old. Turiaf is made of glass. Sheldon Williams moves like a 3 legged turtle, I dont see a keeper in group.... Walsh has some work to do

Fish- I am starting to think this is the very reason we need to switch coaches.

I don't think MDA could have done anything different that would have changed the outcome of the series - we were still going to lose - if not 4-0, then maybe 4-1 or 4-2.

But, we have enough scoring - we don't need more. We need a guy to come in and get Amare and Melo to buy in and play team defense. We need a coach who will try to play the next Darko/Randolph to see if we can get a 5 to fill some space and grab boards.

We also need to keep a core group together for a bit longer than 20 games if we want them to ever achieve in the playoffs- as the Hawks and Memphis seem to be doing now.

why not make the game ugly, bring in balkman and brown, tell them to harass pierce and allen, use some fouls on garnett. Make the game ugly and then ride the back of our star carmelo... not saying this was the answer, but it is worth a try.... All bets were off after we lost billups and amare for the most part... time to dig into the bag of tricks.. seems like mike didn't have any tricks at all.. very dissapointing...