Doc has certainly come a long way and I think he has shown that he is a very good coach (I've liked him since Orlando) but I don't see how anyone could think he has completely outcoached D'Antoni in the last few minutes of any game.

Seriously, people keep pointing to the fact that we went to JJ to win the game and how quickly everyone forgets how many times we took advantage of that during the game. Jeffries was converting after double teams that came from Melo and D'Antoni drew one up for Turiaf as well after a timeout. In fact, if you look at how what happened after Knick timeouts in game 2, we were incredibly efficient and got easy buckets because of good play calls from D'Antoni (who wisely used the double-teams to our advantage).

What legitimate beef do people have with D'Antoni at this point? That he put Jeffries in at the end of the game instead of Shelden Williams (Turiaf was hurt)? That he didn't explain to Melo in detail about how you have to foul when you are down 1 with 5 seconds left? Come on. Some people here grossly overestimate the impact that a coach has in the NBA.

s3231 wrote:I think it's funny that the same people who think Doc is a brilliant coach probably would have jumped all over him when the Celts were losing with only Pierce and no big 3.

Doc has certainly come a long way and I think he has shown that he is a very good coach (I've liked him since Orlando) but I don't see how anyone could think he has completely outcoached D'Antoni in the last few minutes of any game.

Seriously, people keep pointing to the fact that we went to JJ to win the game and how quickly everyone forgets how many times we took advantage of that during the game. Jeffries was converting after double teams that came from Melo and D'Antoni drew one up for Turiaf as well after a timeout. In fact, if you look at how what happened after Knick timeouts in game 2, we were incredibly efficient and got easy buckets because of good play calls from D'Antoni (who wisely used the double-teams to our advantage).

What legitimate beef do people have with D'Antoni at this point? That he put Jeffries in at the end of the game instead of Shelden Williams (Turiaf was hurt)? That he didn't explain to Melo in detail about how you have to foul when you are down 1 with 5 seconds left? Come on. Some people here grossly overestimate the impact that a coach has in the NBA.

Agreed. But that's NY

And for the record I live in Boston and go to a lot of games. Doc is a legend right now. 4 years ago those same people were screaming about how he is a bumb and they were screaming fire Doc at every game.

It's impossible to win when you are coach. D'Antoni went into the game against Eastern Conference champions and one of the few teams that has a legitimate shot to win it all. He goes into the game with one star, no other legitimate starters and is forced to play guys who earlier in the season were 8,9, 10, 11th and 12th men on the bench. We hang with the C's all game, but according to the fans it wasn't because of anything D'Antoni did, it was all because of Melo. The player got all the credit, while the coach just sat back and watched. Then in the final minutes when we lose the game, it had nothing to do with the players and everything to do with the inefficiencies of the coach. He really can't win. That's why very few can coach

For the record though, Doc has outcoached him in the final two minutes so far. D'Antoni hasn't been bad, but he is being outcoached.

rojasmas wrote:Bippity, that's all I am saying. D'Antoni has done a marvelous job keeping the Knicks in these games. But that's why it is so frustrating when has a minor stroke in the final two minutes of Game 2. He and his team worked so hard to steal the game, yet don't finish the job. Not all his fault, but Doc has outcoached him in final minutes of both games.

HE didn't. The players did not execute. Ultimately coach is accountable for the record but a coach tells a player to do something and does not execute is what it is. It was a low % deal anyway. Doc had his foul shooters in.

Half full or half empty.

Boston fans can't believe Team could not put the depleted knicks away, and Knick fans can't believe knicks could not win.

Knicks were in the game all along on the road because of good team play, good team defense, and in part good game plan and good coaching.

Bippity10 wrote:
1.) Blaming the Carmelo non foul on D'Antoni is ludicrous.

I'm not bashing MDA, I think he's got a hodgepodge bunch well prepared for the playoffs.

However, they're coming out a timeout down one, the other team has the ball with 4 seconds to go. If he's not hitting them over the head about giving the immediate foul, what is he talking about - their next offensive set? Without the foul the game will expire and they'll get no offensive set.

You can expect your brain-weary players to know the details of the game all you want, but they're the ones running on adrenaline. We're not talking about gut reflexes about what to do with the ball as you're falling out of bounds on a steal. We're talking about the strategy for the last defensive stand coming out of a timeout. The coach and his crew should be the Mensas of the club, keeping track of details on their tidy little clipboards, and pass the word around on the status of fouls, timeouts, time on the clock and the rules that surround them. That's their job, they're not supposed to be passive spectators.

rojasmas wrote:I think besides what you mentioned, he should have had Carmelo either get the ball at the top himself and not have to receive a pass, or he should have received a pass in the center of the court by posting up. He should not have received the ball on a wing where a double team was too easy. Then Carmelo shouldn't have passed the ball to Jeffries. But Jeffries shouldn't have been in the game. D'Antoni's fault. And he needed a better second option if Carmelo wasn't able to shoot, Williams perhaps. Even running a second option screen for Toney Douglas. Something.
Then I disagree with you. I do blame D'Antoni for not enforcing the mindset of fouling immediately if they didn't get a steal. They just came out of a timeout after all.
And the Garnett alley oop of a timeout earlier was unforgiveable.

1.)I do agree that you could have switched wear he catches the ball. It is tougher to double there. But there are ways to disrupt that as well and a pretty good chance Doc had a counter for Carmelo at the top of the key. At the top of the key it's actually a good place to jump trap because you can do it at the farthest spot from the basket, force the man to give up the ball and force someone else to make a decision from farther away. As a matter of fact the reason Carmelo caught the ball where he did was because 75% of his scoring comes from that exact spot. When he receives at the top he tends to overpenetrate. Either way, you and I would have avoided having Carmelo catch the ball in the corner. Doesn't mean we are right. It's just a different way of approaching things. So I do not accept that as a brain cramp in the least little bit. It's actually just nitpicking. Debating where a guy should have caught the ball on the floor is really just dealing in hypotheticals.

2.) Why can't you double team the post as easily as on the wing. As a matter of fact the post is the most common place a double team occurs, so you are actually contradicting your own analysis.

3.)The JJ situation is valid. I do think you have to have an offense/defense situation there. You really don't need the defensive aspect of it because if you miss you must foul anyway. This is the closest to a mindblob I can see. The rest seem to be nitpicking, monday morning QBing.

4.) As for the second option to someone else. The ball went to Jared he threw it away. We have no idea what the other options were, we were not in the huddle. Our criticisms are based upon assumptions.

5.) Enforcing the mindset to foul? I really don't get this one at all. If I'm playing a game and I'm down 1 and the other team can just run the clock out. Why in the world would anyone have to remind me of this? If you don't foul you lose. It's as obvious of knowing you have to shoot when you are down one and have the ball. One day, if Carmelo catches the ball at the top of the key wide open with his team down one and decides to run out the clock, is this the coaches fault? a fourth grader would have fouled.

6.) on the alley-oop what would you have done? Say "wathc the alley-oop"? We don't know if the coaching staff did or didn't say this, so again it's an assumption. And even if you do say watch the alley-oop the players still have to execute. And if the only way to stop an alley oop is to remind the players about it then why aren't we seeing 40-50 alley-oops per game because clearly coaches aren't calling "watch the alley-oop" on every play. We don't see the alley-oop often because naturally defenders prevent it from occuring. Isn't getting between your man and the basket the first thing you learn when you are 4 years old? It was a great adjustment by Doc. He got the better of that head to head chest game. But still Turiaf could have stopped it, if he got into a defensive stance and forced Garnett to catch the ball away from the basket, where he would not have shot it, instead of overplaying a big man on the perimeter and getting beat back door. That's just basic basketball and Turiaf messed up.

BlueSeats wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:
1.) Blaming the Carmelo non foul on D'Antoni is ludicrous.

I'm not bashing MDA, I think he's got a hodgepodge bunch well prepared for the playoffs.

However, they're coming out a timeout down one, the other team has the ball with 4 seconds to go. If he's not hitting them over the head about giving the immediate foul, what is he talking about - their next offensive set? Without the foul the game will expire and they'll get no offensive set.

You can expect your brain-weary players to know the details of the game all you want, but they're the ones running on adrenaline. We're not talking about gut reflexes about what to do with the ball as you're falling out of bounds on a steal. We're talking about the strategy for the last defensive stand coming out of a timeout. The coach and his crew should be the Mensas of the club, keeping track of details on their tidy little clipboards, and pass the word around on the status of fouls, timeouts, time on the clock and the rules that surround them. That's their job, they're not supposed to be passive spectators.

a.) how do you know they weren't told
b.) Brain weary? How brain weary do you have to be to forget to foul down 1 with 4 seconds left? If you are that brain weary then please ask out of the game

Down 1 and the other team has teh ball, how many options are there. If you've played ball one time in your life you know the only option you have is to foul. The only other option is to quit and let the clock run out. Why are you guys making excuses for the players. Again, it's no different then forgetting to shoot, down one with four seconds to go. Should the staff be reiterating how important it is to shoot the ball when they get it.

D'Antoni: Hey Carmelo remember 4 seconds left we are going to give you an Iso. Don't forget to shoot the ball.

Carmelo: Okay coach.

D'Antoni: Carmelo, when I say shoot the ball I mean before the clock runs out

Carmel: Really

D'Antoni: Yes, see if the clock runs out and you don't shoot then we lose

Carmelo: Oh, okay, I get it

Herb: Hey Coach D, did you remind Carmelo to shoot the ball when he gets it

D'Antoni: I did, but maybe we should call a time out and remind him and the rest of the team again. I want to make it clear to them how important it is for us to be leading by one before the buzzer sounds. I'm not sure if they get that.

This conversation would never happen because it's too freaking obvious. The same as fouling with 4 seconds left and down 1. You have no other option, so why do you need someone to tell you?

1.) Foul
2.) Role into a fetal position and cry
3.) Get the phone number of the hottie in first row
4.) Touch self inappropriately
5.) Have a make out sessioin with the next closest teammate

Am I missing any? Obviously the situation was so perplexing, so confusing, so mind boggling that there had to be other options that I am missing

martin wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:
1.) Blaming the Carmelo non foul on D'Antoni is ludicrous.

I'm not bashing MDA, I think he's got a hodgepodge bunch well prepared for the playoffs.

However, they're coming out a timeout down one, the other team has the ball with 4 seconds to go. If he's not hitting them over the head about giving the immediate foul, what is he talking about - their next offensive set? Without the foul the game will expire and they'll get no offensive set.

You can expect your brain-weary players to know the details of the game all you want, but they're the ones running on adrenaline. We're not talking about gut reflexes about what to do with the ball as you're falling out of bounds on a steal. We're talking about the strategy for the last defensive stand coming out of a timeout. The coach and his crew should be the Mensas of the club, keeping track of details on their tidy little clipboards, and pass the word around on the status of fouls, timeouts, time on the clock and the rules that surround them. That's their job, they're not supposed to be passive spectators.

are you suggesting that both players and coaching staff didn't talk or know about fouling? down 1 with less than 5 seconds on the clock? not sure your point.

Consider my post to Bip in the context of his first utterance of "ridiculous" rather than the second, to which I responeded.

Bippity10 wrote:Anji, I agree that Doc has outcoached D'Antoni in the final minutes. I won't argue with you there. But to blame D'Antoni for Carmelo not fouling is pretty ridiculous. No player should have to be reminded in that situation. It's like the team being down 1 with the ball and then blaming the coach for not reminding his players to shoot. Some things don't need reminders.

BlueSeats wrote:

martin wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:
1.) Blaming the Carmelo non foul on D'Antoni is ludicrous.

I'm not bashing MDA, I think he's got a hodgepodge bunch well prepared for the playoffs.

However, they're coming out a timeout down one, the other team has the ball with 4 seconds to go. If he's not hitting them over the head about giving the immediate foul, what is he talking about - their next offensive set? Without the foul the game will expire and they'll get no offensive set.

You can expect your brain-weary players to know the details of the game all you want, but they're the ones running on adrenaline. We're not talking about gut reflexes about what to do with the ball as you're falling out of bounds on a steal. We're talking about the strategy for the last defensive stand coming out of a timeout. The coach and his crew should be the Mensas of the club, keeping track of details on their tidy little clipboards, and pass the word around on the status of fouls, timeouts, time on the clock and the rules that surround them. That's their job, they're not supposed to be passive spectators.

are you suggesting that both players and coaching staff didn't talk or know about fouling? down 1 with less than 5 seconds on the clock? not sure your point.

Consider my post to Bip in the context of his first utterance of "ridiculous" rather than the second, to which I responeded.

Bippity10 wrote:Anji, I agree that Doc has outcoached D'Antoni in the final minutes. I won't argue with you there. But to blame D'Antoni for Carmelo not fouling is pretty ridiculous. No player should have to be reminded in that situation. It's like the team being down 1 with the ball and then blaming the coach for not reminding his players to shoot. Some things don't need reminders.

If you are so brain weary that you can't remember to foul down 1 with 4 seconds left, then you have absolutely no shot of winning a playoff series. I'm still waiting to hear waht the other options were. And I'm still waiting for the day when a player is so brain weary that:

A basketball player forgets to shoot down 1 with 4 seconds left
A baseball player down 1 with 2 outs in the 9th standing on third base, forgets to run home on a single
A football player forgets to tackle a defender running for the end zone with 4 seconds left
A hockey goalie up 1 with 4 seconds left forgets that he has to stop a shot headed straight for him
A soccer player down 1 with 4 seconds left forgets that he has to try to put a shot on net

These are all absurd situations that require no reminders from the coach. Why should this one. Again, what other option could Carmelo have chosen that confused him enough to prevent him from fouling. What other choices were swirling through his head?

And again, how does anyone know that the players weren't reminded?