VCoug wrote:

markvmc wrote:

VCoug wrote: In the article, Hollinger also implied that David Lee was the 14th best player in the NBA last year; has anyone ever thought that about Lee? In basketball, if your arguments are only based on statistical analysis then you're missing a large part of the game.

No, he implied that Lee was the 14th most efficient offensive player in basketball for that season.

That's not how I read it.

All that stuff about his being a top-10 player, a superstar? Could we maybe try to get some evidence first? Let's start with the digits. Anthony's stats fully state, if not overstate, his value -- there's no hidden defensive value or other warm/fuzzy stuff to explore here. Nonetheless, he has never finished in the top 10 in the league in player efficiency rating. Not once. In 2009-10 he posted a career high in PER, and it placed him 13th, right in front of former Knicks immortal David Lee.

He seems to be saying, pretty explicitly, that the worth of a player is directly related to their PER. Melo has never been top 10 in PER therefore he's not a top 10 player.

you read it wrong?

Killa4luv wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

OasisBU wrote:

fishmike wrote:
He's Vince Carter or Gilbert Arenas or Tracy McGrady... he's an all star, because everyone loves a guy who scores 25 a game and can beat his man.

Melo is not a leader..

First - I'm with you, we gave up way too much.

However, Melo is not VC, Agent Zero or T Mac - the guy won a championship in college and that alone sets him apart. Was it in the NBA? No, but Melo is a step above those guys in my opinion and at least knows what it's like to win on a big stage.

It is very easy to criticize the trade right now because the roster is terrible and we are losing. Add a couple complementary players and a winning streak and you will start seeing articles praising the trade.

Denver did make out like bandits but they already had a solid team. They basically have 2 lines of starters now but no focal point. Time will tell how that will work out.

Bottom line is the Knicks need more pieces. It's been proven that Melo isn't Lebron or Kobe and can't carry a team by himself but to his credit Stat is hurt, Billups has been stinking it up, Fields looks like a second rounder now, and the rest of the roster couldn't win a pickup game against the D league (harsh I know).

Patience is what we need. Everyone wants to panic because of our franchises history but Donnie is a smart guy and I am not worried about him not getting extended, he has delivered and will get renewed - I worry more that the fans are so fickle.

The critics of the trade have been steady, not fickle. Many of us we're against acquiring Carmelo from day 1 and wanted to do a genuine rebuild, which has never been done under Dolan.

A genuine rebuild would require us to really suck, get a top 5 or top 3 pick and move forward from there with your young stars or star. Not young role players or even young solid players. We were not on track to do that ever. We got a #6 pick and got a good young player (Gallo) who is not a star and you cannot build a championship team around him. Brook Lopez would have been a better pick for a rebuild because he's 7 feet and he's a center.

Adding Amare to the mix of players wasn't going to get us anywhere. Adding a few solid defensive players to this current mix will net us some results, if Amare can come back alive.

markvmc wrote:

VCoug wrote: In the article, Hollinger also implied that David Lee was the 14th best player in the NBA last year; has anyone ever thought that about Lee? In basketball, if your arguments are only based on statistical analysis then you're missing a large part of the game.

No, he implied that Lee was the 14th most efficient offensive player in basketball for that season.

Exactly; you beat me to it.

holfresh wrote:

Nalod wrote:

holfresh wrote:I really hope when it's time to man up about this trade, the guys who are most vocal against it, steps up when it's time to step up...I like how Melo gets compared to DLee, Vince Carter, Arenas, and McGrady to prove a point...Where Melo's teams has done nothing but win and he led them there seven consecutive years...Denver was more than willing to put 20 mil per year on the table to keep this guy...Yet we think the pieces that has led us to 30 win seasons were the way to go...Can't Wait!!!

Going forward this is about the team that can be build around Amare and Melo.

Nobody can see the missing pieces yet.

This is not about right or wrong. The proof is on the court and this season the trade so fars sucks.

Can they turn it around? Sure. I think either versions of this years team could have won a first round "upset".

If In two years the Knicks can fill in the holes and go to the conf. finals then your a final four team and its a success. After that, who knows.

We like melo, just not the deal. And since we can't see beyond Chauns its abstract.

"manning up" is implying someone is right and one is wrong.

We win, we'll all be happy. Lose, then its just a matter of agreeing on whose to blame.

Sounds like fun?

The deal has morphed into Melo bashing just like Hollinger's article...George Karl has taken his shots as well even after saying during the long trade specualtion that Melo was the reason he has a job...Everyone ignores Felton is the guy that is really missed...Everyone ignores Amare is probably playing at 60 percent for whatever reason...In life we have to take a chance at getting better...Melo is better than Chan and Gallo.. The right pieces around these two stars can make playing Chicago, Miami and running Boston into the sunset interesting...I really couldn't see that happening with our other roster...

Do you realize how bad it is if Amare can't make it healthily through a full season anymore and we have him on a max contract for another five years?

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Nalod wrote:

holfresh wrote:I really hope when it's time to man up about this trade, the guys who are most vocal against it, steps up when it's time to step up...I like how Melo gets compared to DLee, Vince Carter, Arenas, and McGrady to prove a point...Where Melo's teams has done nothing but win and he led them there seven consecutive years...Denver was more than willing to put 20 mil per year on the table to keep this guy...Yet we think the pieces that has led us to 30 win seasons were the way to go...Can't Wait!!!

Going forward this is about the team that can be build around Amare and Melo.

Nobody can see the missing pieces yet.

This is not about right or wrong. The proof is on the court and this season the trade so fars sucks.

Can they turn it around? Sure. I think either versions of this years team could have won a first round "upset".

If In two years the Knicks can fill in the holes and go to the conf. finals then your a final four team and its a success. After that, who knows.

We like melo, just not the deal. And since we can't see beyond Chauns its abstract.

"manning up" is implying someone is right and one is wrong.

We win, we'll all be happy. Lose, then its just a matter of agreeing on whose to blame.

Sounds like fun?

The deal has morphed into Melo bashing just like Hollinger's article...George Karl has taken his shots as well even after saying during the long trade specualtion that Melo was the reason he has a job...Everyone ignores Felton is the guy that is really missed...Everyone ignores Amare is probably playing at 60 percent for whatever reason...In life we have to take a chance at getting better...Melo is better than Chan and Gallo.. The right pieces around these two stars can make playing Chicago, Miami and running Boston into the sunset interesting...I really couldn't see that happening with our other roster...

Do you realize how bad it is if Amare can't make it healthily through a full season anymore and we have him on a max contract for another five years?

U think it will be as bad as maxing out the guys (DLee, Gallo,and Chandler) that orchestrated 29 wins last season?...And just for the record..I thought Donnie was insane giving Amare that contract...I think Killa and myself was the only one questioning Donnie giving a guy with bad knees 100 mil...But whats done is done...No turning back now...Donnie played his hand and he is all in...

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Nalod wrote:

holfresh wrote:I really hope when it's time to man up about this trade, the guys who are most vocal against it, steps up when it's time to step up...I like how Melo gets compared to DLee, Vince Carter, Arenas, and McGrady to prove a point...Where Melo's teams has done nothing but win and he led them there seven consecutive years...Denver was more than willing to put 20 mil per year on the table to keep this guy...Yet we think the pieces that has led us to 30 win seasons were the way to go...Can't Wait!!!

Going forward this is about the team that can be build around Amare and Melo.

Nobody can see the missing pieces yet.

This is not about right or wrong. The proof is on the court and this season the trade so fars sucks.

Can they turn it around? Sure. I think either versions of this years team could have won a first round "upset".

If In two years the Knicks can fill in the holes and go to the conf. finals then your a final four team and its a success. After that, who knows.

We like melo, just not the deal. And since we can't see beyond Chauns its abstract.

"manning up" is implying someone is right and one is wrong.

We win, we'll all be happy. Lose, then its just a matter of agreeing on whose to blame.

Sounds like fun?

The deal has morphed into Melo bashing just like Hollinger's article...George Karl has taken his shots as well even after saying during the long trade specualtion that Melo was the reason he has a job...Everyone ignores Felton is the guy that is really missed...Everyone ignores Amare is probably playing at 60 percent for whatever reason...In life we have to take a chance at getting better...Melo is better than Chan and Gallo.. The right pieces around these two stars can make playing Chicago, Miami and running Boston into the sunset interesting...I really couldn't see that happening with our other roster...

Do you realize how bad it is if Amare can't make it healthily through a full season anymore and we have him on a max contract for another five years?

U think it will be as bad as maxing out the guys (DLee, Gallo,and Chandler) that orchestrated 29 wins last season?

No, but I did not want any of these players in question to be on six year max contracts.

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Nalod wrote:

holfresh wrote:I really hope when it's time to man up about this trade, the guys who are most vocal against it, steps up when it's time to step up...I like how Melo gets compared to DLee, Vince Carter, Arenas, and McGrady to prove a point...Where Melo's teams has done nothing but win and he led them there seven consecutive years...Denver was more than willing to put 20 mil per year on the table to keep this guy...Yet we think the pieces that has led us to 30 win seasons were the way to go...Can't Wait!!!

Going forward this is about the team that can be build around Amare and Melo.

Nobody can see the missing pieces yet.

This is not about right or wrong. The proof is on the court and this season the trade so fars sucks.

Can they turn it around? Sure. I think either versions of this years team could have won a first round "upset".

If In two years the Knicks can fill in the holes and go to the conf. finals then your a final four team and its a success. After that, who knows.

We like melo, just not the deal. And since we can't see beyond Chauns its abstract.

"manning up" is implying someone is right and one is wrong.

We win, we'll all be happy. Lose, then its just a matter of agreeing on whose to blame.

Sounds like fun?

The deal has morphed into Melo bashing just like Hollinger's article...George Karl has taken his shots as well even after saying during the long trade specualtion that Melo was the reason he has a job...Everyone ignores Felton is the guy that is really missed...Everyone ignores Amare is probably playing at 60 percent for whatever reason...In life we have to take a chance at getting better...Melo is better than Chan and Gallo.. The right pieces around these two stars can make playing Chicago, Miami and running Boston into the sunset interesting...I really couldn't see that happening with our other roster...

Do you realize how bad it is if Amare can't make it healthily through a full season anymore and we have him on a max contract for another five years?

U think it will be as bad as maxing out the guys (DLee, Gallo,and Chandler) that orchestrated 29 wins last season?

No, but I did not want any of these players in question to be on six year max contracts.

And just for the record..I thought Donnie was insane giving Amare that contract...I think Killa and myself were the only ones questioning Donnie giving a guy with bad knees 100 mil...But whats done is done...No turning back now...Donnie played his hand and he is all in...

So what were you going to do when Chandler and Gallo wants to get paid?...Are you targeting any free agents??...Who are you building around?

Bonn1997 wrote:

Would somebody mind telling me how I'm wrong? He states in the article that Melo isn't a top 10 player because he's never been top 10 in PER.

In the sentence about whether a player is top 10, Hollinger mentions PER but also mentions "defensive value" (which isn't part the PER ratings) and other "warm fuzzy" things (which I suspect is his way of referring to hustle and attitude, etc. He's citing PER as *one* piece of evidence that Carmelo is not a top 10 player.

Yeah, I saw that.

there's no hidden defensive value or other warm/fuzzy stuff to explore here.