fishmike wrote:who's upset? The trade looks great for Denver right now and lousy for the Knicks. This trade had a downside although the Melo jock riders refused to believe it existed. Funny how the guys that didnt like the trade preached patience in letting our good young players grow, that these things take time. Meanwhile guys like you ensured the rest of us that Gallo, Chandler, AR, etc would never be the caliber player Melo was, bla bla bla.

There are two problems. One Melo isnt as good as some of you thought. A lot of people around here locked him in as top 10 player or even a top 5 player and expected the type of impact when KG went to Boston. Melo is a not an MVP caliber player and is not an elite rebounder, defender or playmaker. I made a comparison and I will stick too it. Melo is a pre injury Arenas. He's a monster scorer who can drop 40 on you at anytime and take over games. He's got big holes though.

And dont poo poo the guys that left. Before the trade rumors were bothering them they were playing very well and getting better. There was no reason not to resign Chandler to a modest contract. He wanted to be here. We had a young, big skilled and deep roster and a star who get big buckets and carry the youths when needed:
PG Felton, Douglas
SG Fields, Walker
SF Gallo, Chandler
PF Amare, Williams
C Mosgov, Turiaf

Thats a deep team everyone but Amare/Felton 25 years old or younger. Thats a good start. We scrapped it to be a win now team built around 2 high scoring forwards who dont too much else and we have taken quite a step backward.

What cracks me up is guys like me who believed in our young players preached patience. The pro Melo at all costs guys are now saying the exact same things.. its going to take a year, maybe more to build up the roster around these guys. Its pretty funny.

I dont like the trade but I understand why the Knicks felt like they had to do it. I dont have to lovingly embrace Melo any more than I had to lovingly embrace Marbury (same caliber player). Everything about Melo says top NBA player. I think we are all waiting.

This could be the linchpin right back to the way things were before Walsh. Overpaid over hyped players that point fingers and lose a lot of games.

Team was in great shape--had cap space and building then we shot a cruise missile at it--one thing though can we please say that R turriaf scks for crying out loud---get that guy out of here please.

Finestrg wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

fishmike wrote:who's upset? The trade looks great for Denver right now and lousy for the Knicks. This trade had a downside although the Melo jock riders refused to believe it existed. Funny how the guys that didnt like the trade preached patience in letting our good young players grow, that these things take time. Meanwhile guys like you ensured the rest of us that Gallo, Chandler, AR, etc would never be the caliber player Melo was, bla bla bla.

There are two problems. One Melo isnt as good as some of you thought. A lot of people around here locked him in as top 10 player or even a top 5 player and expected the type of impact when KG went to Boston. Melo is a not an MVP caliber player and is not an elite rebounder, defender or playmaker. I made a comparison and I will stick too it. Melo is a pre injury Arenas. He's a monster scorer who can drop 40 on you at anytime and take over games. He's got big holes though.

And dont poo poo the guys that left. Before the trade rumors were bothering them they were playing very well and getting better. There was no reason not to resign Chandler to a modest contract. He wanted to be here. We had a young, big skilled and deep roster and a star who get big buckets and carry the youths when needed:
PG Felton, Douglas
SG Fields, Walker
SF Gallo, Chandler
PF Amare, Williams
C Mosgov, Turiaf

Thats a deep team everyone but Amare/Felton 25 years old or younger. Thats a good start. We scrapped it to be a win now team built around 2 high scoring forwards who dont too much else and we have taken quite a step backward.

What cracks me up is guys like me who believed in our young players preached patience. The pro Melo at all costs guys are now saying the exact same things.. its going to take a year, maybe more to build up the roster around these guys. Its pretty funny.

I dont like the trade but I understand why the Knicks felt like they had to do it. I dont have to lovingly embrace Melo any more than I had to lovingly embrace Marbury (same caliber player). Everything about Melo says top NBA player. I think we are all waiting.

This could be the linchpin right back to the way things were before Walsh. Overpaid over hyped players that point fingers and lose a lot of games.

Yeah Denver got the best of the trade after 15 games? Gallo was on the shelf for most of them and Felton is on the shelf right now. It's easier to insert one player into your starting lineup than it is to add 4. Denver isn't winning a championship with that roster anyway.

Melo is the best rebounding SF in the NBA and the 3rd best SF in the NBA. It's not like I didn't like the players that we had it's that a player like Melo, in the prime of his career, does not become available very often. Bottom line is Melo is the better player and you add the better players as opposed to seeing if potential is fulfilled. Billups is an upgrade and Melo is an upgrade. The former roster nor this roster are winning it all this year but we have a better chance with Melo than without him.

What player doesn't have holes? The only players in the NBA that are damn close to perfect are Kobe, Lebron and Durant. Who’s to say that Chandler would have resigned for a modest contract? Players want to become paid and Chandler is no different. Let's see what he signs for this summer and see where he would have fit in with the Knicks at that number. Let's see what type of money Gallo gets.

Comparing a pre-injury Arenas to Melo is dumb. Let's see a 6'8 SF who is the best rebounder at his position and top 3 at his positon who can knock down a shot with a game on the line who commands a double team to a guy who's an in between PG/SG? Please, other than scoring compare away.

Billups is an upgrade over the stop gap that was Felton. Mosgov was a project who wasn't going to have a major impact anytime soon. We give up Gallo and Chandler for Melo. The Knicks would have had to pay them both and it wasn't going to be for modest dollars anymore than what it would have cost modest dollars to resign Felton if the Knicks wanted him back.

PG Billups, Douglas
SG Fields, Mason, Jr.
SF Anthony, Walker
PF Amare, Williams
C Turiaf, Williams

How is former roster any deeper than the current roster?

Well said Cash.

Here's what he said:

Melo isnt an MVP caliber player (so why did we pay an MVP caliber package???)
Melo is a star and none of the Knicks were, are or will ever be.

You would have thought after the Isiah regime that simply getting the best player in the trade doesnt make it a good trade.

Have I ever said Melo isnt good? The point I made against the trade was we didnt need a high volume scorer who did little else.

Saying Melo is among tops at rebounding at his position means crap. Who cares? Watch the games dude and quit browsing stats. Collecting some rebounds and being a presence on the boards are two different things. Melo doesnt control the glass. Marion was getting 10+ boards a night under MDA. He was an impact rebounder.

KG is an MVP caliber player, because he's one of the best defensive players in the league. Melo cant stop Gallo some dropping 30 on him (and we ALL know Gallo is all hype). So paying an MVP package for a player that isnt an MVP caliber is a bad trade and bad business and will set the Knicks back.

THATS what I'm saying. Thats what the people who didnt like the trade are saying. Everyone else seems to be in denial. Why look at whats actually happening on the court when we can cling to monikers such as stars win games and role players are replaceable.

To all the Melo lovers:
I'm sorry he's not the player you thought or think he is. If Walsh stays there is still hope. Lets hope in addition to forcing his way here, getting Knicks to pay him more than anyone in the NBA and costing us all the resources we had in the meantime to trade for him we are still able to fill the massive holes to cover up all the holes in his game.

The best is when Walsh stockpiles the team again and we have high caliber guys like Nene, Camby and Dre Miller all in the their prime you can give Melo all the credit for making it work. Lets hope Melo gets us out of round one ;)

Also our cap is NOT in order. It would have been if we signed Melo as a FA like w/ Amare where his deal starts at $16mm(ish) a year. Instead we gave him an extention paying over $20mm a year. That kills big FA options. There's a little discussed caveat.

I'm desperate to be proven wrong. I'm calling it like I see it. Not pissing and moaning in the wind here. Melo didnt singlehandedly revive Denver. Camby, Nene and Andre Miller had a lot to do with that.

I've posted threads about how and with who are we going to build around. I'm over the trade. It was a bad trade and I accept that. Its up to Walsh or Isiah or whoever to replace the lost pieces and build something here. This year looks like a wash.

fishmike wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

fishmike wrote:who's upset? The trade looks great for Denver right now and lousy for the Knicks. This trade had a downside although the Melo jock riders refused to believe it existed. Funny how the guys that didnt like the trade preached patience in letting our good young players grow, that these things take time. Meanwhile guys like you ensured the rest of us that Gallo, Chandler, AR, etc would never be the caliber player Melo was, bla bla bla.

There are two problems. One Melo isnt as good as some of you thought. A lot of people around here locked him in as top 10 player or even a top 5 player and expected the type of impact when KG went to Boston. Melo is a not an MVP caliber player and is not an elite rebounder, defender or playmaker. I made a comparison and I will stick too it. Melo is a pre injury Arenas. He's a monster scorer who can drop 40 on you at anytime and take over games. He's got big holes though.

And dont poo poo the guys that left. Before the trade rumors were bothering them they were playing very well and getting better. There was no reason not to resign Chandler to a modest contract. He wanted to be here. We had a young, big skilled and deep roster and a star who get big buckets and carry the youths when needed:
PG Felton, Douglas
SG Fields, Walker
SF Gallo, Chandler
PF Amare, Williams
C Mosgov, Turiaf

Thats a deep team everyone but Amare/Felton 25 years old or younger. Thats a good start. We scrapped it to be a win now team built around 2 high scoring forwards who dont too much else and we have taken quite a step backward.

What cracks me up is guys like me who believed in our young players preached patience. The pro Melo at all costs guys are now saying the exact same things.. its going to take a year, maybe more to build up the roster around these guys. Its pretty funny.

I dont like the trade but I understand why the Knicks felt like they had to do it. I dont have to lovingly embrace Melo any more than I had to lovingly embrace Marbury (same caliber player). Everything about Melo says top NBA player. I think we are all waiting.

This could be the linchpin right back to the way things were before Walsh. Overpaid over hyped players that point fingers and lose a lot of games.

Yeah Denver got the best of the trade after 15 games? Gallo was on the shelf for most of them and Felton is on the shelf right now. It's easier to insert one player into your starting lineup than it is to add 4. Denver isn't winning a championship with that roster anyway.

Melo is the best rebounding SF in the NBA and the 3rd best SF in the NBA. It's not like I didn't like the players that we had it's that a player like Melo, in the prime of his career, does not become available very often. Bottom line is Melo is the better player and you add the better players as opposed to seeing if potential is fulfilled. Billups is an upgrade and Melo is an upgrade. The former roster nor this roster are winning it all this year but we have a better chance with Melo than without him.

What player doesn't have holes? The only players in the NBA that are damn close to perfect are Kobe, Lebron and Durant. Who’s to say that Chandler would have resigned for a modest contract? Players want to become paid and Chandler is no different. Let's see what he signs for this summer and see where he would have fit in with the Knicks at that number. Let's see what type of money Gallo gets.

Comparing a pre-injury Arenas to Melo is dumb. Let's see a 6'8 SF who is the best rebounder at his position and top 3 at his positon who can knock down a shot with a game on the line who commands a double team to a guy who's an in between PG/SG? Please, other than scoring compare away.

Billups is an upgrade over the stop gap that was Felton. Mosgov was a project who wasn't going to have a major impact anytime soon. We give up Gallo and Chandler for Melo. The Knicks would have had to pay them both and it wasn't going to be for modest dollars anymore than what it would have cost modest dollars to resign Felton if the Knicks wanted him back.

PG Billups, Douglas
SG Fields, Mason, Jr.
SF Anthony, Walker
PF Amare, Williams
C Turiaf, Williams

How is former roster any deeper than the current roster?

Well said Cash.

he didnt say anything!

Here's what he said:

Melo isnt an MVP caliber player (so why did we pay an MVP caliber package???)
Melo is a star and none of the Knicks were, are or will ever be.

You would have thought after the Isiah regime that simply getting the best player in the trade doesnt make it a good trade.

Have I ever said Melo isnt good? The point I made against the trade was we didnt need a high volume scorer who did little else.

Saying Melo is among tops at rebounding at his position means crap. Who cares? Watch the games dude and quit browsing stats. Collecting some rebounds and being a presence on the boards are two different things. Melo doesnt control the glass. Marion was getting 10+ boards a night under MDA. He was an impact rebounder.

KG is an MVP caliber player, because he's one of the best defensive players in the league. Melo cant stop Gallo some dropping 30 on him (and we ALL know Gallo is all hype). So paying an MVP package for a player that isnt an MVP caliber is a bad trade and bad business and will set the Knicks back.

THATS what I'm saying. Thats what the people who didnt like the trade are saying. Everyone else seems to be in denial. Why look at whats actually happening on the court when we can cling to monikers such as stars win games and role players are replaceable.

To all the Melo lovers:
I'm sorry he's not the player you thought or think he is. If Walsh stays there is still hope. Lets hope in addition to forcing his way here, getting Knicks to pay him more than anyone in the NBA and costing us all the resources we had in the meantime to trade for him we are still able to fill the massive holes to cover up all the holes in his game.

The best is when Walsh stockpiles the team again and we have high caliber guys like Nene, Camby and Dre Miller all in the their prime you can give Melo all the credit for making it work. Lets hope Melo gets us out of round one ;)

When did I say Melo isn't a MVP caliber player. Oh, because I said Kobe, Durant and Lebron are better players? I watch every game and the Knicks haved played good defense in spurts. If you watched the game yesterday it was lost because of offense not defense. KG is a MVP caliber player who didn't win crap until he teamed with other stars! KG didn't get out of the 1st round of the playoffs with the Wolves until they picked up Latrell and Cassel. Yeah Gallo had a good game against Melo so what's the point? Marion was a product of the SSOL system.

What part of basketball is a team game is not understood. No one, including myself, ever said that adding Melo equaled instant championship. Those who were against the trade look at the Nuggets being 9-4 since the trade while not looking at what our former guys are actually contributing to the team. The Knicks gave Melo the same money he was going to get in Denver and would have gotten from the Nets. Role players are replacebale but won't be replaced with 14 games left in the season. Let's see what happens after a full year with Melo, STAT and pieces.

fishmike wrote:I'm sorry I'm not buying it. Chandler (22), Gallo (22), Felton (26), Mosgov (25), AR (21) + a pick are all gone for one guy in the long term plans but your selling me on a brighter future?

Also our cap is NOT in order. It would have been if we signed Melo as a FA like w/ Amare where his deal starts at $16mm(ish) a year. Instead we gave him an extention paying over $20mm a year. That kills big FA options. There's a little discussed caveat.

I'm desperate to be proven wrong. I'm calling it like I see it. Not pissing and moaning in the wind here. Melo didnt singlehandedly revive Denver. Camby, Nene and Andre Miller had a lot to do with that.

I've posted threads about how and with who are we going to build around. I'm over the trade. It was a bad trade and I accept that. Its up to Walsh or Isiah or whoever to replace the lost pieces and build something here. This year looks like a wash.

Chadler = RFA - What's he going to command?
Gallo = RFA Next Year - What's he going to command?
Felton = Signed for 2 years. Contaract up at the same time Gallo becomes a RFA. What's his cost? Definately not what he signed for last summer.
Mosgov = He may be a solid NBA player in the next 3-5 years which puts him at 28-30 years old.
AR = ???? Let's see what he turns into if anything.

What part of Melo no going into FA is not understood? Also, even with the extension you're talking about a difference of around $2 million. That's not going to make the Knicks miss out on anyone this summer becuase there is no one to miss out on. The next wave of FA's is not until the 2012-2013 seaon. With that being said the difffernce in Melo's salary at that time is closer to a difference of about $1.5 million.

Those against the trade fail to that Gallo and Chandler in reality are soon to be veteran players who are going to command dollars. It doesn't matter how old they are it matters how long they've been in the league.

Melo didn't singlehandedly revive Denver but he played the major role. One player makes a difference but players make a team. Let's see Carmelo and Amar'e get players around them and let's see what happens.

misterearl wrote:

Solace wrote:One more disappointing element of the trade. We traded a lot of tall guys and got nobody over 6'9" in return:

Mozgov - 7'1"
Curry - 6'11"
Anthony Randolph - 6'11"
Gallo - 6'10"

Any time you trade away that kind of size and don't get size back, you're asking for trouble. We were a little undersized before. Now, we're possibly the most undersized team in the league. That's never a good formula.

Now, we're trying to plug those holes with Jared Jeffries and it simply does not make up for the fact that we have no other bigs.

A 6'11 Jared Freakin' Jeffries, who cannot dunk or block a shot, does not count as height. He plays closer to 6'6. Anyone who mentions 6'4 Shelden Williams gets their tongue removed.

How quickly people forget the decade when the tallest Knick was either Kurt Thomas or David Lee, both at 6'9.

After the 5 minutes, 30 push ups for mentioning Eddy Curry.

6-4 sheldon?

YOu measure to the top of his head, not where his ears are!

BRIGGS wrote:

fishmike wrote:I'm sorry I'm not buying it. Chandler (22), Gallo (22), Felton (26), Mosgov (25), AR (21) + a pick are all gone for one guy in the long term plans but your selling me on a brighter future?

Also our cap is NOT in order. It would have been if we signed Melo as a FA like w/ Amare where his deal starts at $16mm(ish) a year. Instead we gave him an extention paying over $20mm a year. That kills big FA options. There's a little discussed caveat.

I'm desperate to be proven wrong. I'm calling it like I see it. Not pissing and moaning in the wind here. Melo didnt singlehandedly revive Denver. Camby, Nene and Andre Miller had a lot to do with that.

I've posted threads about how and with who are we going to build around. I'm over the trade. It was a bad trade and I accept that. Its up to Walsh or Isiah or whoever to replace the lost pieces and build something here. This year looks like a wash.

fishmike--theyre are intangibles that go beyond personnel. Our star really does not play MDA ball. Hes not really ball mover but a stopper.We had a team and a style --I mean we went 13-1--that showed the potential of the team+ we started picking it up right before trade. Still cannot believe we did it what a nightmare of epic proportions. Some of you guys probably are not old enough to know who spencer haywood and Bob macadoo are. well this is similar heck we still has pearl and frazier that first year--and we had a big young Lonnie Shelton decent role players and still scked. you cant just throw players together half arsed like that has to fit in a style of play. Carmelo has $ in the bank---hes got his--I dont trust him hes Marbury 2.

You're DAMN STRAIGHT my focus shifted to the Knicks bringing Jeffries back once the Melo trade was made..Filling those two open roster spots was very important as far as trying to win now, and get the most out of this year's team..If we could've made the right moves there and got two difference makers, it could've really helped us out a great deal..If we didn't, well, here we are with Jeffries and a benched Derrick Brown, scuffling..I feel, make that I KNOW, we could've done better..You wanna poo-poo a young 7' legit C talent like Marcus Cousin who could've solved a lot of problems for us, fine, go right ahead.. I get it, I get it -- some of you automatically associate the DL with the word 'scrub.' Pretty closed-minded if you ask me. I can't say how much I disagree with that but whatever...Forget the D-League---what about Troy Murphy? Why isn't this guy wearing orange and blue? More importantly, why didn't we at least attempt to get involved for his services? All accounts say we never did..Why is that? Who would you rather have--a healthy Troy Murphy or Jared Jeffries? You say Jeffries and you just don't know your NBA personnel..Simple as that..And forget this +/- horse**** OK? I don't care what that useless statistic has to say about him---I look at tangible evidence..The guy's has virtually ZERO impact & doesn't make us any better over playing Ronny Turiaf (which should've been the berometer for bringing in another big---to me he would've had to be a step up from Turiaf otherwise why bother). I'd like to call Jeffries the league's most overrated player, but sadly, I think the NY Knicks' coaching staff are the only ones out there overrating him..

As far as scouting useful players, I really gotta question the Knicks a little bit..I've always had the feeling that they either aren't looking in the right places for cheap talent or even if are, I feel Donnie might not have the confidence that his stubborn-as-sin-head coach would play the talent he's thought about bringing in (see Anthony Randolph, Derrick Brown, Corey Brewer, Andy Rautins, Jordan Hill), hence there would be no point..If that's how Donnie's going about his business, based on Mike's approval, then there's truly something wrong here..Either way I think it stinks, personally.. Not gonna stop me from making recommendations from the available players I've seen..Not for anything buddy, I don't see you recommending anyone to bring on board--just trashing others' thoughts..You don't like what I have to say, don't read it. Honestly, I'm so down on this board, I probably won't be doing much posting here anymore, so you won't have to worry.

Not sure what you're talking about with the 'pro-melo' contingent putting everyone down --- just speaking for myself, I never once tried to make anyone feel like an idiot for not liking the trade (in fact, I'M the one who's taken constant jabs from the know-it-alls on this board even since I joined a few years ago)..Believe me, when DEN started asking for more and more, I was on the fence with the whole thing for awhile there myself. I quickly realized a few things though: Melo's head & shoulders a better SF than Chandler or Gallo, we're on the verge of paying both of those guys big money anyway--I'd rather pay for the proven star, Gallo & Chandler are replaceable, Billups is a damn good player that could serve as an adequate bridge to 2012 FA when guys like CP3 and D-Will among other top PGs (Felton, Andre Miller) will be FAs, Mozgov sucked and this coach was never gonna play AR anyway--AR was done here right from the beginning of the season after he returned from a minor injury that sidelined him for the first couple of games.

"Felton, Melo, Gallo, Amare, Mosgov starting and Williams, Douglas and Turiaf off the bench. That team would be competing for a title." Wow, I can't stress how much I disagree with that statement. We weren't even close...I feel we're in a much better situation now with the solid two-star foundation, even with this current group all of a sudden underachieving..Now it's just a matter of building toward the ultimate goal..I personally think you do that with cheap/effective signings along the way as well as through the draft IN ADDITION to bigger FA signings..You gotta plot out a plan--no doubt they have: I don't see this summer as our time to strike in FA; the following summer will be. I'm not ready to panic and blow my load on a DeAndre Jordan when there are cheaper alternatives available I'd rather try first (i.e. bring in a Marcus Cousin right now, play the damn guy instead of Jeffries, and see what he's got. What if he's starting C material? I think he might be---let's bring him in and find out!).

"Fields is a cute player." Huh?? WTF does that mean? Dude's a tremendous support player on this team, completely team-oriented, and he's only a rookie. He's been great since day 1..HE IS the ROY in this league if Blake Griffin never got hurt last year..Far from the problem--he's part of the solution all the way..I can only hope we can keep him after next year..I can see him asking for the type of money we might not be able to afford if we expect to do something big around the same time in FA. Cute player..WOW..

"Anthony's game is as one dimensional as I always thought. Man can he score, but he needs a STRONG supporting cast around him, ad we dont have that and guys like Nene, Camby, a younger Billups, etc etc.. those guys arent easy to sign, draft or trade for." Wrong. SupremeCommander just touched on it (in a very rational rebuttal post I might add--kudos brother) he's ne of if not the best rebounder at his position..So if anything that makes him two-dimensional, no? At the very least..And what star doesn't need a strong supporting cast around him? Did Michael? Does Kobe? Did Ewing? Come on bro.. Who says we can't take the next year and a half to build it..It can be done, it's just gonna take some good moves and a little patience. I'm down with that..In the meantime, make the playoffs, shoot for the 6th seed and get the better draft pick over Houston..Those are my immediate goals and they're obtainable..To EXPECT anything else at this time is unreasonable. Here's one Knick fan who understands what time it is.

The norm is the kind of empty star studded roster that yields empty results.

Dolan was more scared over Nets getting Melo than overpaying for him.

Pretty simple.

Fishmike, we proud of the fight your putting up but the trade is done.

Briggy, YEah I remember Haywood-McAdoo. My friends and I were actually listening to the first game they played and they beat the Celtics. We were young, Starphuched and thought the "Knicks were back". What a freakin disaster!

Im rooting for Melo and this trade to work. I would not have done it, but its done.