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crzymdups
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3/19/2011  10:21 PM
Childs2Dudley wrote:
crzymdups wrote:Weird how the Knicks with Melo won in Miami and the Nuggets without Melo lost in Miami. I wonder who will do better in the playoffs?

Great thinking. Sounds like the way Isiah Thomas used to reason his trades.

Thanks!

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CrushAlot
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3/19/2011  10:25 PM
rp wrote:
Knicksfan wrote:
Childs2Dudley wrote:What do you know, Miami is winning a game with good DEFENSE...

What? According to D'Antoni, we always play solid defense.

Only if they play their mind to it like Miami game. Unfortunately we have 3 starters who are offensive minded and not much defense so you play to your strength.

Add 6-8 players from the bench who play mostly offense. I find it funny how tommy d is thinking doc rivers and trying to convince our 3 star players to play defense when they are not (and known to be not defensive players).

Billups is a two time all defensive team selection and was credited with getting the Nuggets to play the tough defense that got them to the conference finals. He may have lost a step but he knows how important that aspect of the game.
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rp
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3/19/2011  10:27 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
rp wrote:
Knicksfan wrote:
Childs2Dudley wrote:What do you know, Miami is winning a game with good DEFENSE...

What? According to D'Antoni, we always play solid defense.

Only if they play their mind to it like Miami game. Unfortunately we have 3 starters who are offensive minded and not much defense so you play to your strength.

Add 6-8 players from the bench who play mostly offense. I find it funny how tommy d is thinking doc rivers and trying to convince our 3 star players to play defense when they are not (and known to be not defensive players).

Billups is a two time all defensive team selection and was credited with getting the Nuggets to play the tough defense that got them to the conference finals. He may have lost a step but he knows how important that aspect of the game.

Agree on billups but he is not the same when he won it in Detroit.

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JrZyHuStLa
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3/19/2011  10:31 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/19/2011  10:31 PM
Danilo Ganninari and Wilson Chandler shot the ball at a bad percentage tonight.
martin
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3/19/2011  10:35 PM
Knicksfan wrote:
Childs2Dudley wrote:What do you know, Miami is winning a game with good DEFENSE...

What? According to D'Antoni, we always play solid defense.

Really. Stop reading just snippets of what's posted online, if you watch any of the post game stuff or pregame interviews he is alway talking about needing to play better D.

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JrZyHuStLa
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3/19/2011  10:38 PM
martin wrote:
Knicksfan wrote:
Childs2Dudley wrote:What do you know, Miami is winning a game with good DEFENSE...

What? According to D'Antoni, we always play solid defense.

Really. Stop reading just snippets of what's posted online, if you watch any of the post game stuff or pregame interviews he is alway talking about needing to play better D.

Its puzzling though. He'll talk about needing to play defense, but after giving up 112 points he'll say we lost because we didn't hit shots lol.

nixluva
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3/19/2011  10:40 PM
martin wrote:
Knicksfan wrote:
Childs2Dudley wrote:What do you know, Miami is winning a game with good DEFENSE...

What? According to D'Antoni, we always play solid defense.

Really. Stop reading just snippets of what's posted online, if you watch any of the post game stuff or pregame interviews he is alway talking about needing to play better D.


He started in training camp. He was making defense a point of emphasis since camp. He was saying that size and rebounding would be issues along with defense. Initially the D was ahead of the offense early on.
CrushAlot
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3/19/2011  10:43 PM
martin wrote:
Knicksfan wrote:
Childs2Dudley wrote:What do you know, Miami is winning a game with good DEFENSE...

What? According to D'Antoni, we always play solid defense.

Really. Stop reading just snippets of what's posted online, if you watch any of the post game stuff or pregame interviews he is alway talking about needing to play better D.

Talking about it is fine. He doesn't put enough emphasis on it and when he broke down his teams defense on his show it was a basic zone defense. I can see why Melo was upset with the second Pacers loss and I know Karl isn't a big defensive guru. Also, when he is asked about why his team lost he generally points to mistakes on offense.
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Knicksfan
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3/19/2011  10:44 PM
rp wrote:
Knicksfan wrote:
Childs2Dudley wrote:What do you know, Miami is winning a game with good DEFENSE...

What? According to D'Antoni, we always play solid defense.

Only if they play their mind to it like Miami game. Unfortunately we have 3 starters who are offensive minded and not much defense so you play to your strength.

Add 6-8 players from the bench who play mostly offense. I find it funny how tommy d is thinking doc rivers and trying to convince our 3 star players to play defense when they are not (and known to be not defensive players).

You don't need to be a "defensive player" to play average defense and do the basic box out and rebounding. Doc would probably make us do that, and its not much to ask.

Knicks_Fan
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3/19/2011  10:50 PM
martin wrote:
Knicksfan wrote:
Childs2Dudley wrote:What do you know, Miami is winning a game with good DEFENSE...

What? According to D'Antoni, we always play solid defense.

Really. Stop reading just snippets of what's posted online, if you watch any of the post game stuff or pregame interviews he is alway talking about needing to play better D.

Really. I saw interviews and he always find our defense solid and either ball movement, turnovers and missed shots were responsible for the loss. I know you are in a defend D'Antoni crusade, but call it like it is. He has talked defense, won't deny that, but its never the reason for our problems from his point of view. Meanwhile, we keep allowing 115+ points or we can't be able to stop anyone in the 4th quarter.

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martin
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3/19/2011  11:21 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
martin wrote:
Knicksfan wrote:
Childs2Dudley wrote:What do you know, Miami is winning a game with good DEFENSE...

What? According to D'Antoni, we always play solid defense.

Really. Stop reading just snippets of what's posted online, if you watch any of the post game stuff or pregame interviews he is alway talking about needing to play better D.

Talking about it is fine. He doesn't put enough emphasis on it and when he broke down his teams defense on his show it was a basic zone defense. I can see why Melo was upset with the second Pacers loss and I know Karl isn't a big defensive guru. Also, when he is asked about why his team lost he generally points to mistakes on offense.

Karl has coached some of the best defensive teams in the NBA: Seattle SuperSonics. And except this year, his Denver teams were also top 10.

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martin
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3/19/2011  11:49 PM
Knicksfan wrote:
martin wrote:
Knicksfan wrote:
Childs2Dudley wrote:What do you know, Miami is winning a game with good DEFENSE...

What? According to D'Antoni, we always play solid defense.

Really. Stop reading just snippets of what's posted online, if you watch any of the post game stuff or pregame interviews he is alway talking about needing to play better D.

Really. I saw interviews and he always find our defense solid and either ball movement, turnovers and missed shots were responsible for the loss. I know you are in a defend D'Antoni crusade, but call it like it is. He has talked defense, won't deny that, but its never the reason for our problems from his point of view. Meanwhile, we keep allowing 115+ points or we can't be able to stop anyone in the 4th quarter.

you have to distinguish when he is talking about big picture versus a couple of plays during stretches of games.

These guys aren't stupid. Everyone on the Knicks staff KNOWS that they are very good on offense and very bad on defense. Get past what they may say in response to a point-in-time question from a reporter.

Right now the Knicks' offensive is decent somewhere about 1/2 to 2/3 (generously) of the time and their D is good maybe 1/4 of the time at best.

Staff and everyone including Donnie has said that it will take time to fix both, something that should be reasonably understood. And the staff also knows what is easier to fix first and what will most likely take right up until playoffs and probably extend until next season.

Let's break this down logically: Most offenses do have all 5 guys coordinated dependent on what they run (PnR vs. post-up vs. motion vs triangle) but realistically speaking it's a 2-3 guy combo that are the primary players with 2 dudes that are either spreading to floor or clearing out in some manor - that's a simplified generalization.

With defenses, it takes all 5 guys to move, rotate, and work together at all times for it to be effective (not to mention the actual effort that needs to be put in). 1 glaring weakness and the whole thing breaks down. It's one of the reasons MDA wants a guy like JJ on the floor with Amare and Melo; not only is JJ able to guard his guy (with some relative success, he is not really a lock-down type IMHO), he is also able to provide extra help for both of these guy and more when the defense does not react as it should (and another way to say it is that HE is the guy that does all the work to kinda make the defense work).

Guys like Amare and Melo are usually 100% honed in on the offensive side and yet they are STILL off as a team. We all see that both of the leaders on the Knicks take off possessions and quarters at a time on defense when all that is asked is effort. But let's fire the coach who is not coaching effort with these 2. What's his recourse? Sit them? Yell at them more?

The Knicks just traded away 4 rotation guys. 4 guys who were supposed to know where and when to be on the court so that defense can be played. They got back a guy in Melo who gives less effort on defense than say Gallo/Chandler and also needs to be worked into the scheme. Chauncey, for all of his accolades on a very good Detroit dynasty, is older, hurt and also needs to be integrated. The Knicks also got smaller. This means Amare is gonna guard guys who are bigger than he is for larger blocks of minutes on the court.

How is it that we suddenly expected the defense to be BETTER right away after the trade in light of the above? Cause that's what it seems like the expectation was.

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Childs2Dudley
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3/19/2011  11:52 PM
martin wrote:
Knicksfan wrote:
Childs2Dudley wrote:What do you know, Miami is winning a game with good DEFENSE...

What? According to D'Antoni, we always play solid defense.

Really. Stop reading just snippets of what's posted online, if you watch any of the post game stuff or pregame interviews he is alway talking about needing to play better D.

D'Antoni is not a good defensive coach. He does not have the right defensive philosophy and is a stubborn person to boot. It's not a good combination. This guy has been a bad defensive coach at every single NBA head coaching stop. This is not the first time. And if he ever gets a job after this again, it wont be the last.

"Our attitude toward life determines life's attitude towards us." - Earl Nightingale
martin
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3/20/2011  12:30 AM
Childs2Dudley wrote:
martin wrote:
Knicksfan wrote:
Childs2Dudley wrote:What do you know, Miami is winning a game with good DEFENSE...

What? According to D'Antoni, we always play solid defense.

Really. Stop reading just snippets of what's posted online, if you watch any of the post game stuff or pregame interviews he is alway talking about needing to play better D.

D'Antoni is not a good defensive coach. He does not have the right defensive philosophy and is a stubborn person to boot. It's not a good combination. This guy has been a bad defensive coach at every single NBA head coaching stop. This is not the first time. And if he ever gets a job after this again, it wont be the last.

I literally have zero idea what MDA's defensive philosophy is, perhaps you could help me understand it. Please explain.

It's my assumption that good teams will have both the coaching/philosophy as well as the players, right? Let me know your thoughts on that too.

Seems to me most all very good defensive teams have 1-2 guys who are good at post defense and/or rotating to cover the paint area with perhaps 1 wing who is a lock-down type. Let me know what players MDA has had in either PHO or NY has either helped or hindered his philosophy.

Thanks.

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nixluva
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3/20/2011  12:45 AM
martin wrote:
Childs2Dudley wrote:
martin wrote:
Knicksfan wrote:
Childs2Dudley wrote:What do you know, Miami is winning a game with good DEFENSE...

What? According to D'Antoni, we always play solid defense.

Really. Stop reading just snippets of what's posted online, if you watch any of the post game stuff or pregame interviews he is alway talking about needing to play better D.

D'Antoni is not a good defensive coach. He does not have the right defensive philosophy and is a stubborn person to boot. It's not a good combination. This guy has been a bad defensive coach at every single NBA head coaching stop. This is not the first time. And if he ever gets a job after this again, it wont be the last.

I literally have zero idea what MDA's defensive philosophy is, perhaps you could help me understand it. Please explain.

It's my assumption that good teams will have both the coaching/philosophy as well as the players, right? Let me know your thoughts on that too.

Seems to me most all very good defensive teams have 1-2 guys who are good at post defense and/or rotating to cover the paint area with perhaps 1 wing who is a lock-down type. Let me know what players MDA has had in either PHO or NY has either helped or hindered his philosophy.

Thanks.

TO add to your points, Mike's teams in PHX weren't bad defensive teams they were usually anywhere from 13-17th in the league. This is with Nash and Amar'e right up the middle of his defense. If he was such a horrible coach, how did he accomplish this playing in the Western Conf. which has for more than a decade been a pretty stacked Conf.? It's tougher to be a good defensive team out West due to the better competition. So while his teams were winning 60 games and not stinking on D, despite not having much size and 2 poor defenders on the court for starter minutes, he was never 29th in the league on D.

Now i'm saying this not to say he's some defensive genius, but that a lot of it is up to the players to step up and give effort. Also it takes time for defensive chemistry to develop and unfortunately the team has had major roster changes each season and that has effected their ability to develop the best chemistry.

Childs2Dudley
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3/20/2011  1:02 AM    LAST EDITED: 3/20/2011  1:02 AM
martin wrote:
Childs2Dudley wrote:
martin wrote:
Knicksfan wrote:
Childs2Dudley wrote:What do you know, Miami is winning a game with good DEFENSE...

What? According to D'Antoni, we always play solid defense.

Really. Stop reading just snippets of what's posted online, if you watch any of the post game stuff or pregame interviews he is alway talking about needing to play better D.

D'Antoni is not a good defensive coach. He does not have the right defensive philosophy and is a stubborn person to boot. It's not a good combination. This guy has been a bad defensive coach at every single NBA head coaching stop. This is not the first time. And if he ever gets a job after this again, it wont be the last.

I literally have zero idea what MDA's defensive philosophy is, perhaps you could help me understand it. Please explain.

It's my assumption that good teams will have both the coaching/philosophy as well as the players, right? Let me know your thoughts on that too.

Seems to me most all very good defensive teams have 1-2 guys who are good at post defense and/or rotating to cover the paint area with perhaps 1 wing who is a lock-down type. Let me know what players MDA has had in either PHO or NY has either helped or hindered his philosophy.

Thanks.

Why do you and others get perturbed any time someone questions the great Mike D'Antoni? What has he shown here that is worthy of this staunch support? What has he shown anywhere that is worthy of this staunch support? Certainly it is not the defensive regimen we are all looking for.

MDA's defensive philosophy is switching on every pick and roll, doubling guys in the paint and playing zone half the game. This same exact thing has been going on since he has been here. Nothing has changed at all. We have players that are defensive players in Jeffries, Turiaf, Sheldon, Shawne, Mason, Carter, Brown, Douglas, and Fields and they are either not being utilized or not being utilized properly.

Who does Miami have in the paint? Joel Anthony and Erick Dampier? Juwan Howard? 40 year old Igaulskas? Who exactly is so imposing? They know how to play great team defense. James Jones and and Mike Miller and Mike Bibby Eddie House are not some elite defenders. You know what the key is here? Besides the fact that Spoelstra is a better coach than D'Antoni (as any Riley disciple is), the star players in Dywane Wade and Lebron James elevate the defensive performance of their supporting cast with the good-great defense they play on a nightly basis. The Heat never had a problem with defense. When they had to "gel", it was on the offensive end. We're not having the same type of problem. Our problem is the combination of poor coaching and poor "star" leadership that is leading to poorer defense.

Another example of a great defensive team being led by superstar is the Bulls. Of course you can't overlook Thibodeau's great defensive strategies. He's even got Boozer and Korver playing some defense down there. If you replace Tom Thibodeau with Mike D'Antoni that team is in our position right now in playoff seeding.

Defense wins championships. D'Antoni's psuedo-defense will win you a round in the playoffs. Besides that, it will be a whole lost of regular season victories and early playoff exits under Pringles. Phoenix didn't miss a beat with Alvin Gentry running the same system last year. It's another reason why Suns fans didn't shed a tear when this guy hit the road.

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nixluva
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3/20/2011  2:11 AM
Let's not give Spoelstra the credit for the defense that the Heat play. They are quite possibly the quickest team i've ever seen in terms of lateral movement. Having Wade and Lebron helps that alot, cuz they're freak athletes, as is Bosh and Joel Anthony. They simply cover more ground more quickly than other teams can.

Meanwhile who does D'Antoni have here that compares defensively? We have some guys that can play some D, but no one that is a shutdown defender outside of maybe TD. The funny thing about the switching is that if Melo and STAT actually gave 100% on most possessions, the D would work a lot better. Often they're the weak link in the chain. I don't agree with everything Mike does, but remember this. If he tries to go with a more defensive unit, often those guys are gonna leave some holes offensively and still won't give us a shutdown defense. We just don't have the horses to be a shutdown defense. That is unless STAT and MELO step up significantly. History suggests that won't happen.

Unfortunately our best defense as presently constituted is a highly efficient offense. That means we can't have Billups giving up 8 turnovers like he did the last game and Melo has to step up and be the clutch performer we traded for. Both Billups and TD have to make sure that we get the ball in our best players hands in crunchtime and not make poor passes leading to TO's or take bad shots leading to fastbreaks.

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3/20/2011  2:38 AM
nixluva wrote:
martin wrote:
Childs2Dudley wrote:
martin wrote:
Knicksfan wrote:
Childs2Dudley wrote:What do you know, Miami is winning a game with good DEFENSE...

What? According to D'Antoni, we always play solid defense.

Really. Stop reading just snippets of what's posted online, if you watch any of the post game stuff or pregame interviews he is alway talking about needing to play better D.

D'Antoni is not a good defensive coach. He does not have the right defensive philosophy and is a stubborn person to boot. It's not a good combination. This guy has been a bad defensive coach at every single NBA head coaching stop. This is not the first time. And if he ever gets a job after this again, it wont be the last.

I literally have zero idea what MDA's defensive philosophy is, perhaps you could help me understand it. Please explain.

It's my assumption that good teams will have both the coaching/philosophy as well as the players, right? Let me know your thoughts on that too.

Seems to me most all very good defensive teams have 1-2 guys who are good at post defense and/or rotating to cover the paint area with perhaps 1 wing who is a lock-down type. Let me know what players MDA has had in either PHO or NY has either helped or hindered his philosophy.

Thanks.

TO add to your points, Mike's teams in PHX weren't bad defensive teams they were usually anywhere from 13-17th in the league. This is with Nash and Amar'e right up the middle of his defense. If he was such a horrible coach, how did he accomplish this playing in the Western Conf. which has for more than a decade been a pretty stacked Conf.? It's tougher to be a good defensive team out West due to the better competition. So while his teams were winning 60 games and not stinking on D, despite not having much size and 2 poor defenders on the court for starter minutes, he was never 29th in the league on D.

Now i'm saying this not to say he's some defensive genius, but that a lot of it is up to the players to step up and give effort. Also it takes time for defensive chemistry to develop and unfortunately the team has had major roster changes each season and that has effected their ability to develop the best chemistry.

+1

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CrushAlot
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3/20/2011  2:42 AM
nixluva wrote:Let's not give Spoelstra the credit for the defense that the Heat play. They are quite possibly the quickest team i've ever seen in terms of lateral movement. Having Wade and Lebron helps that alot, cuz they're freak athletes, as is Bosh and Joel Anthony. They simply cover more ground more quickly than other teams can.

Meanwhile who does D'Antoni have here that compares defensively? We have some guys that can play some D, but no one that is a shutdown defender outside of maybe TD. The funny thing about the switching is that if Melo and STAT actually gave 100% on most possessions, the D would work a lot better. Often they're the weak link in the chain. I don't agree with everything Mike does, but remember this. If he tries to go with a more defensive unit, often those guys are gonna leave some holes offensively and still won't give us a shutdown defense. We just don't have the horses to be a shutdown defense. That is unless STAT and MELO step up significantly. History suggests that won't happen.

Unfortunately our best defense as presently constituted is a highly efficient offense. That means we can't have Billups giving up 8 turnovers like he did the last game and Melo has to step up and be the clutch performer we traded for. Both Billups and TD have to make sure that we get the ball in our best players hands in crunchtime and not make poor passes leading to TO's or take bad shots leading to fastbreaks.

Spolestra was mentored by and coached under SVG and Riles. I think it is pretty safe to say that he is going to be a defensive coach. Having atheletes helps but I am sure you remember the emphasis Riley put on defense. Do you think anything close to that is happening in NY? The Knicks have a coach who in the past was reported to not like practice. After last season, it was reported that Knick players said they never worked on defense in practice. I think it is acknowledged and addressed this year in practice but I don't think it is given anywhere near the emphasis that it needs to be given if the Knicks are going to be anything more than a quick out in the first round of the playoffs. Also, I have never heard any reports about how long the Knicks practice. I remember reading an interview with Grant Hill when D'Antoni was coaching the Suns and Hill said a long practice for them was 40 minutes. My guess is if the Knicks practiced for 40 minutes or less there would be reports and leaks about this but I honestly do not know.
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blkexec
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3/20/2011  2:51 AM
nixluva wrote:Let's not give Spoelstra the credit for the defense that the Heat play. They are quite possibly the quickest team i've ever seen in terms of lateral movement. Having Wade and Lebron helps that alot, cuz they're freak athletes, as is Bosh and Joel Anthony. They simply cover more ground more quickly than other teams can.

Meanwhile who does D'Antoni have here that compares defensively? We have some guys that can play some D, but no one that is a shutdown defender outside of maybe TD. The funny thing about the switching is that if Melo and STAT actually gave 100% on most possessions, the D would work a lot better. Often they're the weak link in the chain. I don't agree with everything Mike does, but remember this. If he tries to go with a more defensive unit, often those guys are gonna leave some holes offensively and still won't give us a shutdown defense. We just don't have the horses to be a shutdown defense. That is unless STAT and MELO step up significantly. History suggests that won't happen.

Unfortunately our best defense as presently constituted is a highly efficient offense. That means we can't have Billups giving up 8 turnovers like he did the last game and Melo has to step up and be the clutch performer we traded for. Both Billups and TD have to make sure that we get the ball in our best players hands in crunchtime and not make poor passes leading to TO's or take bad shots leading to fastbreaks.

I don't agree with everything people say, but you've been spot on with this one.

You can rotate coaches all you want, but it's not going to make that much of a difference, without the personnel.

The one thing I see is that we need a coach who's not afraid to call out their star players. MDA is good at putting the rookies and bench plays in the dog house. But when you have stars like Shaq, Melo, STAT.....it takes a special coach. Doc Rivers maybe?

Right now, if we do the simple things like....EVERYBODY BOX OUT ....STAT gets pushed around in that paint way too much. Along with our other players.

Just watch next game....Whenever you see them get an offensive rebound, you will see two or three knicks near the ball, just looking up at the rim, instead of looking for the nearest man to box out.

Right now, we look like we did when we were 3-8.....BAD OFFENSE AND BAD DEFENSE.

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