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Toney Douglas
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fishmike
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3/10/2011  8:56 AM
Olbrannon wrote:Coach is hard on this guy...the times I've seen it he usually deserved it.
which is part of why I really like both MDA and Douglas. MDA is tough on him, never seems to give him credit, always points out his shortcomings, but he also plays him a lot. TD remains coachable and I think everyone around him knows he wants to win above all else.

I see Douglas as a big part of this core. He's a great defender. He struggles with going from being the man (20ppg, SEC defensive player of the year) to being a bench guy or a role player. I love how coach pushes him to be himself, stay aggressive and do whath he does best. Ball hawk and score that thing

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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grillco
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3/10/2011  9:14 AM
BRIGGS wrote:16-6-4 62% over the last 4 games and his efg is in the 70's with a 3.5 -1 TO ratio. You cant play much better than that--its not sustainable but hes been very good.

Why so negative. While you're likely right, why not let it play out and hope fr the best instead of the self-defeating perspective. Maybe this is the real Toney, maybe HE is the PG of the future for NY...just maybe...

fishmike
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3/10/2011  9:50 AM
grillco wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:16-6-4 62% over the last 4 games and his efg is in the 70's with a 3.5 -1 TO ratio. You cant play much better than that--its not sustainable but hes been very good.

Why so negative. While you're likely right, why not let it play out and hope fr the best instead of the self-defeating perspective. Maybe this is the real Toney, maybe HE is the PG of the future for NY...just maybe...


I dont think its that far fetched. Toney gives us a lot at that position
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
VDesai
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3/10/2011  9:51 AM
This guy is really coming along. I know down the stretch yesterday was a mess, but there was a lot of good in that game. And look at this guy's scoring. He's scoring like he's part of a big 3...
bernard
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3/10/2011  10:00 AM
Toney brings so much energy and good athleticism -- on both offense and defense, but he's kind of a dumbass. That's why coach always seems frustrated with him, and I feel the same way. He's the source of more of my yelling at the TV than any Knick. I hate him shooting 3's off the dribble early in the shot clock, but he does it repeatedly. I hate him dribbling, probing, wasting the clock. I hate him fouling every time his man makes it into the lane. His problem is he's not very good at starting the offense and letting our more efficient scorers finish the plays. He plays like he thinks he's the number one option. On D, he's really solid, but still makes more bonehead plays than he should.

All that said, he plays so hard. And when he's on, he's a good scorer in his own right.

He is the prototypical energy guy off the bench. On a good team, he doesn't get a sniff of playing time during crunch time unless he's having a great game. And when Chauncey's back, that's how it will play out for us. He's got value, he's a solid rotation player, but I don't think he'll ever develop into a legit 35 minute guy/starter.

grillco
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3/10/2011  10:04 AM
bernard wrote:Toney brings so much energy and good athleticism -- on both offense and defense, but he's kind of a dumbass. That's why coach always seems frustrated with him, and I feel the same way. He's the source of more of my yelling at the TV than any Knick. I hate him shooting 3's off the dribble early in the shot clock, but he does it repeatedly. I hate him dribbling, probing, wasting the clock. I hate him fouling every time his man makes it into the lane. His problem is he's not very good at starting the offense and letting our more efficient scorers finish the plays. He plays like he thinks he's the number one option. On D, he's really solid, but still makes more bonehead plays than he should.

All that said, he plays so hard. And when he's on, he's a good scorer in his own right.

He is the prototypical energy guy off the bench. On a good team, he doesn't get a sniff of playing time during crunch time unless he's having a great game. And when Chauncey's back, that's how it will play out for us. He's got value, he's a solid rotation player, but I don't think he'll ever develop into a legit 35 minute guy/starter.

Obsessed much? Someone's gotta a crush on Toney.

Knicksfan
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3/10/2011  10:10 AM
Im worried about Douglas for real. For all the greatness we have been witness of during his starting stretch, I wonder if he will be able to bring the same intensity and solid play from the bench once Billups comes back.

We have seen Douglas come off the bench and shine for a game and then have a few games where he disappears. Is it because he is with the first unit? Is it because of focus?

We need solid play from our bench and Douglas is vital to that. I hope he can give us the same play he is giving us right now, but Im afraid he could disappear once again.

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Knickoftime
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3/10/2011  10:16 AM
Toney Douglas was a purchased 29th pick, who hasn't completed his second season yet. People need to ratchet down their expectations as well as broaden their view of the guy's learning curve.

As much of the press has pointed out recently, it took Billups 5 years to really get it together, and the PG position is widely considered to have the longest learning curve.

For me, he's WAAY ahead of any reasonable expectation considering his draft status and a godsend considering the Knicks were and are PG deficient.

No, he's never going to be a top-tier PG and doesn't and probably never will have great court vision. But again, considering where the Knicks got him, I'd settle for a career of his present level of production and consider it a win.

That he seems like he can continue to get better is just gravy.

fishmike
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3/10/2011  10:19 AM
bernard wrote:Toney brings so much energy and good athleticism -- on both offense and defense, but he's kind of a dumbass. That's why coach always seems frustrated with him, and I feel the same way. He's the source of more of my yelling at the TV than any Knick. I hate him shooting 3's off the dribble early in the shot clock, but he does it repeatedly. I hate him dribbling, probing, wasting the clock. I hate him fouling every time his man makes it into the lane. His problem is he's not very good at starting the offense and letting our more efficient scorers finish the plays. He plays like he thinks he's the number one option. On D, he's really solid, but still makes more bonehead plays than he should.

All that said, he plays so hard. And when he's on, he's a good scorer in his own right.

He is the prototypical energy guy off the bench. On a good team, he doesn't get a sniff of playing time during crunch time unless he's having a great game. And when Chauncey's back, that's how it will play out for us. He's got value, he's a solid rotation player, but I don't think he'll ever develop into a legit 35 minute guy/starter.


why not? He's got NBA speed... only Darren Collison tested quicker than Douglas in the combine and he's got some of the best scores there ever. He was 20ppg scorer and SEC defensive player of the year. We all see the tool on both sides of the ball. The thing he struggles with is the line between finding a role in the NBA and being the main scoring option. The thing with TD, and the reason he gets a ton of playing time is he TRIES to do the right things, he's coachable and he works so hard. He's hard not to like
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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3/10/2011  10:22 AM
Knickoftime wrote:Toney Douglas was a purchased 29th pick, who hasn't completed his second season yet. People need to ratchet down their expectations as well as broaden their view of the guy's learning curve.

As much of the press has pointed out recently, it took Billups 5 years to really get it together, and the PG position is widely considered to have the longest learning curve.

For me, he's WAAY ahead of any reasonable expectation considering his draft status and a godsend considering the Knicks were and are PG deficient.

No, he's never going to be a top-tier PG and doesn't and probably never will have great court vision. But again, considering where the Knicks got him, I'd settle for a career of his present level of production and consider it a win.

That he seems like he can continue to get better is just gravy.


Bibby was one considered a top tier PG. He just got cut. You would be suprised. Toney has a lot of holes in his game, BUT I can certainly see him being a PG on an elite team. Look at how he runs the offense now. He had ten assists and he had good ball movement. I agree he will never be a true floor general type, but Billups wasnt either and he was a finals MVP. I'm not going to say he's going to be the next Billups, but he's got the tools and the heart (so far)
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
technomaster
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3/10/2011  10:38 AM
TD can become a PG on an elite team, particularly when you consider Carmelo (and Amare) have their hands on the ball in isolation so much. You don't need a truly elite PG to get the ball up the court safely and dump it off. You just need an effective and efficient one who doesn't make many mistakes.

At this stage, he makes a fair number of mind-numbing mistakes.

“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
Knickoftime
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3/10/2011  10:40 AM
BUT I can certainly see him being a PG on an elite team.

Didn't say he couldn't be. Said he probably will never be an elite PG, which is a slightly different thing.

But more importantly I'm bullish on TD, which you and I seem to agree on.

Finestrg
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3/10/2011  10:43 AM    LAST EDITED: 3/10/2011  10:45 AM
I was gonna create a tread about this but I'll mention it here: anyone else feel like Mike's a little too hard on this dude sometimes? Seems to always be yelling at him for something he didn't do right.. I know coach has the right intention but I dunno man, I would think those are hard conditions to perform under, no? Maybe a little more positive reinforcement would work a little better..I mean what the hell's the matter with this D'Antoni sometimes? He does realize they didn't draft point guard with this guy, right??? Thank God Douglas is a good coachable kid that takes it in stride but sometimes it looks a little overkill to me..Where does it say that TD has to be this guy's whipping boy?? I personally don't care to see TD getting chewed out time & time again--not the right approach if you ask me. Any thoughts?
fishmike
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3/10/2011  10:50 AM
Knickoftime wrote:
BUT I can certainly see him being a PG on an elite team.

Didn't say he couldn't be. Said he probably will never be an elite PG, which is a slightly different thing.

But more importantly I'm bullish on TD, which you and I seem to agree on.

I always have been... probably more a fan than being able to be unbiased. I just like the way he plays.

However after the trade the team's needs have changed. So long as Amare/Melo are healthy its about finding the right role players. To me TD is a much better fit now than with the old group. He and Felton were a bit redundant, althought they paired pretty well together.

I would much rather have an athletic rebounder and defender type at C and leave TD at PG than upgrade PG. I think thats the key to being elite. Thats what has Chi the #2 seed now... Rose/Boozer are great scorers, but Knoa is the guy that makes that team go from good to elite. Verajao would be perfect

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
technomaster
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3/10/2011  11:02 AM
Dunno if MDA is too hard on him. He gets minutes. He's got the green light to be the #3 scorer on the team right now with Billups out (otherwise, he got the 4th highest # of shots/game). That's #4 on the totem pole with 3 big name stars. That's a big deal.
“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
Olbrannon
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3/10/2011  11:03 AM
Finestrg wrote:I was gonna create a tread about this but I'll mention it here: anyone else feel like Mike's a little too hard on this dude sometimes? Seems to always be yelling at him for something he didn't do right.. I know coach has the right intention but I dunno man, I would think those are hard conditions to perform under, no? Maybe a little more positive reinforcement would work a little better..I mean what the hell's the matter with this D'Antoni sometimes? He does realize they didn't draft point guard with this guy, right??? Thank God Douglas is a good coachable kid that takes it in stride but sometimes it looks a little overkill to me..Where does it say that TD has to be this guy's whipping boy?? I personally don't care to see TD getting chewed out time & time again--not the right approach if you ask me. Any thoughts?

Right here with you on that one. I feel it would be best to address this in a calm manner the next day while reviewing the game with him. At the moment it is all raw emotion and unproductive. That play is over move on to the next play. The guy already feels bad when he makes a mistake and needs to be refocused on the play at hand not the last one.

Bill Simmons on Tyreke Evans "The prototypical 0-guard: Someone who handles the ball all the time, looks for his own shot, gets to the rim at will and operates best if his teammates spread the floor to watch him."
BRIGGS
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3/10/2011  11:23 AM
TD has been great


Since he has started we are 4-1 and he has avg 17 pts 7 assists while shooting 60%. I think he is earning the right to continue starting. He mightve had a snafu for a few minutes later in the game yesterday but otherwise how could we ask for more?

RIP Crushalot😞
Knickoftime
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3/10/2011  11:43 AM
"I would much rather have an athletic rebounder and defender type at C and leave TD at PG than upgrade PG."

i don't disagree in principle, I'm just not sure who I see on the market that is worthy of the switch.

I see some "best available" types like Dalembert. While he may be at the top of the 2011 C FA class, that doesn't mean the 2011 class is very strong.

Finestrg
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3/10/2011  12:48 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/10/2011  12:52 PM
Olbrannon wrote:
Finestrg wrote:I was gonna create a tread about this but I'll mention it here: anyone else feel like Mike's a little too hard on this dude sometimes? Seems to always be yelling at him for something he didn't do right.. I know coach has the right intention but I dunno man, I would think those are hard conditions to perform under, no? Maybe a little more positive reinforcement would work a little better..I mean what the hell's the matter with this D'Antoni sometimes? He does realize they didn't draft point guard with this guy, right??? Thank God Douglas is a good coachable kid that takes it in stride but sometimes it looks a little overkill to me..Where does it say that TD has to be this guy's whipping boy?? I personally don't care to see TD getting chewed out time & time again--not the right approach if you ask me. Any thoughts?

Right here with you on that one. I feel it would be best to address this in a calm manner the next day while reviewing the game with him. At the moment it is all raw emotion and unproductive. That play is over move on to the next play. The guy already feels bad when he makes a mistake and needs to be refocused on the play at hand not the last one.

Absolutely..There was a situation a few games back at home where Mike, TD & Chauncey were discussing a play together during a timeout..After D'Antoni appeared to chew TD out yet again per usual, Toney and Billups walked back onto the court continuing the discussion..Right after leaving the bench, it looked like TD laughed a little as if to say, 'yeah this guy does that to me all the time.' Anyone remember that? Anyway, I agree with you O -- this guy's not a natural PG..It's gonna take time getting him to where they want although as we're seeing lately, he's improved a great deal and should keep improving..There's gotta be a better way of reaching him than constantly taking him to task on national TV every damn night..I don't care for it at all..Lay off the guy man..Dude's doing his best and that good enough for me..Toney's the only one that Mike takes that tone with it seems..There's plenty we have to be thankful for with Douglas--I hope D'Antoni realizes that. I'm sure he does--he just has an odd way of showing it..

joec32033
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3/10/2011  12:52 PM
I may not have said it outright before but Billups will be the best thing to happen to TD's career.

You are seeing Billups teachings at work. Toney is a carbon copy of the player Billups was early in his career.

By the end of next year, Paul will be an afterthought(I hope).

~You can't run from who you are.~
Toney Douglas

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