martin wrote:BlueSeats wrote:martin wrote:BlueSeats wrote:Just want to make sure I understand the goal posts. Is it that BOTH of the top 2 had to be good defenders?
I think he meant both were bad/average defenders.
How many elite teams are there where both their top guys were deficient at defense.
I will say this. I have seen both Amare and Melo play good defense. It is not their specialty, but it's there. However, they both play HOF caliber offense (IOW barring catastrophic injury if either wins a chip they're in.)
In another thread I compared Melo's stats to other HOF offensive machines. I suspect history would show that HOF players give you a better chance to win than mediocre two-way role players.
The defensive acuity of this team is equally dependent on the coach at this stage of the game, IOW the kind of players they are surrounded with and the focus put on it.
My point: I think we have a better chance to win a championship with these two than without. There are always opportunity costs, but there is no current calculus that can project us from a .500 team to a championship overnight. You seem to be inferring you have one up your sleeve. Lets see it.
I think this post of mine def got lost in all of the threads, so I am reposting.
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=38137&page=3#830127
Here is a better plan than the one for Melo:
Let's make assumption that Chandler is $8M next year. I am also going to assume that at the beginning of next year the Knicks, if they stay together as a whole, are mostly the same team roster wise. I will make a slight assumption that the team as a whole are better than this year: They will have had a year together; Chandler, Gallo, Moz, Fields still have growing room (IMHO Moz and Fields will get significantly better and also recall that this past offseason was really the first the both Chandler and Gallo could practice for an entire off-season). Before next season, 2011 pick is up, and Donnie has slight maneuverability with AR to upgrade his backup PG spot, which is the Knicks' weakest position. I think those are all reasonable things.
Without the need to figure out his rotations and starting lineup, MDA and team have an advantage over year 2010/2011 in terms of how to attach season. Moz settles down from last year and is OK enough to start full time. I think this alleviates Turiaf from starting and playing minutes towards which he will get hurt; ie, he plays the role of back as he should.
The Knicks as a team are better *and* more importantly individuals like Gallo, Chandler, Moz, Fields are also better than before because of the extra year of experience. This would increase their values some. Not sure how much. I don't think this is too much of a stretch.
CP3 or Deron come up. I believe that if Orlando tanks in playoffs Dwight will grumble enough and may scare his ownership ****less.
Those are 3 guys you can target while growing your team internally.
If Utah wants value for a departing Deron: Chandler(or Gallo)/Felton/TD/2011 pick, 2013 pick. Utah will need a starting PG to replace Deron and don't think Hayward is ready to be a starter yet. Utah can be competitive for another year or 2 with Jefferson, Millsap, Chandler/Gallo, Felton, Raja, Okur, Gordan, CJMiles and they can also rebuild after that.
Same deal with CP3. Or if NO wants cap relief: CP3/OK4: Chandler/Felton/Moz/Turiaf/2013 pick.
For Dwight, I may give up a lot cause I think a front line of Dwight, Amare, Felton can compete against anyone: Moz/Turiaf/Gallo/Chandler/picks.
Dwight has indicated either NY or LA. I think LA has a better shot at him IF they want to break up a team that just won 3 championships, I think they win this year.
Blue, Amare and Melo are nowhere in the same league as LeBron/Wade defensively, and yet Miami's duo can match offense with Amare/Melo all day. And Miami has Bosh to boot.
I am beginning to think that Durant/Westbrook can match the output of Amare/Melo and be better defends and their team has many more legit starters and bench then the Knicks would after Denver deal.
My point: I think we have a better chance to win a championship with these two than without.
The team with Melo/Amare definitely is better than today's team. But how does it get past the second round?
Amare $19.9
Melo $19.9
Turiaf
Mozgov $3.1
TD $2.0
Williams $1.0
Rautins $1.0
Fields $3.0
2011 First Round $1.0
-------------------------
$50.9
Without a 2012, 2014 pick and a 36 year old expiring Chauncy, how does that team upgrade significantly enough to beat CHI, MIA, LAL, OKC, with the general assumption that those teams could also upgrade in small bits too and will compete for the same UFA's.
Knicks need to upgrade defense, starting PG, bench depth, backup PG. And we also assume that Moz and Fields are good enough starting caliber players for deep playoff team.
What am I missing, I don't think swapping Deron, CP3 or Howard projects us to a championship either, and who's to say we wont get played just as bad in those negotiations?
There are no guarantees. Winning a Chip requires more than just a strategy, it also requires great luck. You have to do things that put you in a position to contend for one. Being a perennial second round of playoffs is getting there. Then you can be in a position where a DeBusschere can put you over the top. How do you get that player? Who knows: get lucky in the draft, the MLE, a good trade...you gotta get lucky.
But languishing at .500 and pining for longer shots than the one at hand doesn't position you any better.
Again, I have no problem with you not liking Melo or not liking whatever package you are assuming we are giving up, but this idea that you don't do anything unless this one move makes you a champ is silly, and you can post your above post ad infinitum, but it ain't in it either, nor do you know you could get it done.