JohnWallace44 wrote:Regardless of what we give up, the only thing that scares me about this trade is Billups saying he won't play for the Knicks or Nets. So... Who's playing point? I guess we'd just be signing Rafer Alston or something.

Has this been an issue?

Chandler has already said that he does not want to play in Denver. What if Gallo says he is going back to Italy?

What are the ramifications here?

knicks1248 wrote:I keep hering this talk about donnie extension, and he might leave...

I like what donnie has done, but lets not get carried away here, yes the knicks are more entertaining, but he was the one that stack the team with rental players, and i don't know if he was expecting those players to play there asses off(so far fetch) for 1 or 2 seasons.

He put us in a position to be players in in the biggest FA market ever, but he rush all of his trades and got little in return other then cap space..It wouldn't have taken a guru to do this..We had a good team going into the 08 season, and donnie and mike made sure they spoiled that plan by slapping marbury around, and pushing the panic button on JC and Zach trade way to early. Then following that up by trading draft picks for more cap space with houston.

Not one single player last year had anything to play for, other then to show case there indivule skills..I wouldn't give donnie an extension unless this team makes a real playoff run ( at least 2nd rnd)

I hear what you're saying, but do you really think that the team that was Thomas-era leftovers and the players Walsh brought in to field a team that wasn't the absolute worst in the league had any real chance to go anywhere? Marbury, Crawford, and Zach? That is not a contending team now or ever. The team they have now iis clearly better and has the record to prove it. The team after the Melo trade goes through (if it goes through) might even be a bit better, but it's not going to be a championship team either. Donnie had the plan and made it happen when Zeke couldn't move any of the horrible contracts and players he brought in. Now Dolan is getting his stank on the deal and potentially screwing things up by messing with Walsh's plan. Donnie was the man with the plan that was sold to Dolan, Dolan is panicking and he needs his father to take the team away from him, because he's a baffoon.

MSG3 wrote:

Moonangie wrote:

MSG3 wrote:Not trying to be a dick or condescending. Sorry if you feel that way. All I'm saying is that we will be waiting a looooong time before we are winners if we don't take opportunities available to us. I don't want to Starphuck for the sake of starphucking, but Donnie's job was to clear cap space to do just that to an extent.

Thanks. No offense taken. Just pointing out that there are multiple pathways forward and choosing one ONLY on the premise of an alleged "star" status isn't our best plan.

MSG3 wrote:You tell me, what does this team need to win a title during Amar'e's prime? What can we add and subtract to this roster as presently constituted to make us legit competition for Miami, Boston, LA, Dallas, etc? If we wait for Paul, or Deron or Dwight we are taking a huge risk that might not pay off. We don't know what they want to do. Maybe Dwight wins a title and stays. Maybe CP3 and Dwight decide they want to go somewhere together. Maybe Utah gets a franchise player somehow and stays in Utah.

Yes, it would involve risk waiting for those guys contracts to come due next season. But IMHO it will be less risk than gutting our current roster in a trade. We already have known assets in our roster. We also have team chemistry, which is arguably more valuable than scoring ability (e.g., team defense relies on it, so does ball movement). Mufuhs need to trust each other to share the rock and help on D. I'd call it risky to assume that Melo will improve our team in those areas. We already know he sucks at D and is average (at best) at grabbing boards.

Both DeRon and CP3 have already stated their desire to play for the Knicks. The point is that it will be a bigger and known risk gutting our roster for Melo, who adds the one thing our team already has in abundance: Scoring.

MSG3 wrote:Maybe if we don't get Melo it's for the best and we build a Pistons-esque team. But maybe not. What we know is that one of the top 10 talents in the game wants to join another top 10 talent in the game on our team. When was the last time that happened? Did it ever happen? We have to take this chance. What I do know is that when Melo is added our team is instantly much better than it is now and we have a great core to add complementary pieces around. The future would be much less of a question mark.

I'm frustrated because as bad as the last 10 years were it shouldn't make us afraid to take a risk like this for a franchise player. Yes, Melo is a franchise player. Where was Denver before he came? He came in and single- handedly made that team into a contender. The best player he had around him at any point was Chauncey Billups. Why are we so against sending a fair package to Denver to acquire a talent like this? I'm a business man and I agree that it would be best to fleece Denver here given the situation. But it's not happening and we can't cut off our nose to spite our face. This deal has to go through and the package as it is now is more than fair. I was against including Galo AND Chandler earlier in the year, but both of them do not equal Melo.

Let's get this done and enjoy what will be a hell of a ride the next 3 years.

Are you ignoring the recent ADDITION of Mozgov. As of now, Denver is asking for...

Chandler, Gallo, Curry's expiring, AR, Felton AND Mozgov, not to mention our 2014 first rounder.

Yes, adding Melo to our CURRENT team would make us better. Adding him to our team minus all those pieces would make us worse in so many ways (e.g., defense, rebounding, ball movement, team chemistry, future cap flexibility, future trade assets). Our cupboards would be bare and we'd have basically Stat/Melo/Fields to build around. That is not a smart strategy, especially when we can reject the offer and possibly get Melo while retaining our core roster.

I am not advocating for keeping our roster and making no moves. I am advocating against dealing our core roster for one volume scorer. If it was LBJ or MJ in his prime, I might reconsider. But it's not a talent on that level and it is flawed to think that Melo makes us better regardless of cost.

I disagree taht waiting is less of a risk. I like the players we have, but all the things you mentioned that we will be losing (defense, rebounding, etc.) aren't really that good presently. Adn it has led us to being 2 games over .500. My belief is that while our rebounding won't get much better, it won't get much worse. And I think our defense will improve. So I do believe that Melo added to the roster minus the parts shipped out do make us much better. On these points we have to agree to disagree I guess.

I think one of the fundamental differences between people here is that they have a problem with giving up this much for a "Volume Scorer" as you put it. But when you get Melo and Amar'e on the same team it opens up everything. We're not just replacing stats. Our team will be a nightmare for opposing defenses. The pick and roll will be a thing of beauty. People will be wide open on the perimiter. We'll get to the foul line at an incredible rate.

And I'm not ignoring Mozgov being inserted into the deal. I think in the end the Knicks will stick to their guns and a deal will be made. I really don't believe Melo will sign with NJ. And in the end if he is included, I still go for it. That's how much I believe in this move.

And if for some reason Mozgov does hold the trade up I'll disagree, but at least we'll know the front office is truly united and that we kept some credibility.

I don't see how adding Melo + Billups and subtracting Chandler, Felton, Gallo and Moz would not hurt our defense. I don't even think it will improve our scoring by that much. What it WILL give us is an incredibly clutch scorer to pull out wins in close games. But I think Gallo could become that sort of player by next season. He is already showing signs of being such a player. And he is (arguably) a MUCH better defender than Melo.

Chandler and Felton are lock-down defenders. Billups isn't even close to Felton and at 35/36 probably has lost a couple of lateral steps defensively. Chandler would have been gone anyway, so he is less of a concern, but he is our best defender and still scores 15+ ppg. His stats dropped because he has a fragile psyche due to trade talks. I expect his scoring will get back closer to 20ppg if we keep him until the summer.

However, I am happy to just agree to disagree. You raise valid points about the benefits of having two stars (i.e., spread the floor, give higher percentage opportunities to role players, and force tough decisions on defenses) and I can't argue with those points. Melo and Stat is an imposing set of forwards and a nightmare for any team to deal with. But as a team, I am not so sure we would be better.

I am sticking with my plan: Melo in FA or switch to plan B.

Allanfan20 wrote:

misterearl wrote:Allanfan -

"it's clear this decision has been taken out of Walsh's hands. Forget not extending Walsh's contract: We have no idea, at this point, why he'd even want to come back."

Until Donnie Walsh signs an extension why should that be assumed as a done deal?

"And then Jim Dolan came busting in. Convinced as always that he knows best — or anything at all, really — Dolan took the Knicks' bargaining advantage and set it on fire. (This is Dolan's way: As we put it in our mag column last week, "Walsh has put the tires back on the car. Now Dolan wants to drive again.") The Knicks went from, "The Nuggets have no choice but to trade Carmelo for whatever we want" to, "Wait, we're trading Gallinari and Chandler and Felton?" to, "We can't let Timofey Mozgov be what holds this deal up."

Dolan did this IN THE SPAN OF ONE WEEKEND.

Every piece of Knicks-Carmelo news since Friday has been depressing, one more move away from the position Walsh shrewdly put the Knicks in. The Knicks were reconstructed by patience and guile and, for once, having grownups back in charge. It took Walsh two years to clean up a decade of mess. Dolan might have undone it all in a weekend."

- NYMagazine

Dude, you're basing your anxiety on what the newspapers say. The Knicks themselves said they had no connections. These papers are basing this crap on what they think or heard is going on. You're getting pissy and upset on rumors.

My dog probably has a better clue on what's going on behind closed doors then most of these bloggers and beat writers.

You're in that much denial that you're believing the Dolan PR machine.

Silverfuel wrote:

Childs2Dudley wrote:

Allanfan20 wrote:

misterearl wrote:Allanfan -

"it's clear this decision has been taken out of Walsh's hands. Forget not extending Walsh's contract: We have no idea, at this point, why he'd even want to come back."

Until Donnie Walsh signs an extension why should that be assumed as a done deal?

"And then Jim Dolan came busting in. Convinced as always that he knows best — or anything at all, really — Dolan took the Knicks' bargaining advantage and set it on fire. (This is Dolan's way: As we put it in our mag column last week, "Walsh has put the tires back on the car. Now Dolan wants to drive again.") The Knicks went from, "The Nuggets have no choice but to trade Carmelo for whatever we want" to, "Wait, we're trading Gallinari and Chandler and Felton?" to, "We can't let Timofey Mozgov be what holds this deal up."

Dolan did this IN THE SPAN OF ONE WEEKEND.

Every piece of Knicks-Carmelo news since Friday has been depressing, one more move away from the position Walsh shrewdly put the Knicks in. The Knicks were reconstructed by patience and guile and, for once, having grownups back in charge. It took Walsh two years to clean up a decade of mess. Dolan might have undone it all in a weekend."

- NYMagazine

Dude, you're basing your anxiety on what the newspapers say. The Knicks themselves said they had no connections. These papers are basing this crap on what they think or heard is going on. You're getting pissy and upset on rumors.

My dog probably has a better clue on what's going on behind closed doors then most of these bloggers and beat writers.

You're in that much denial that you're believing the Dolan PR machine.

You are believing newspapers that Isiah is back right? Gotta believe something. Just cause he is believing the Knicks PR does not automatically mean Donnie Walsh will not return. I'd rather wait for something to happen. I mean, look at what happened with Lebron, Bosh and Wade this summer.

So you think Isiah is not talking to Dolan and that Walsh is involved in this trade alone?

misterearl wrote:Say What?

knicks1248 - "(Donnie Walsh) put us in a position to be players in in the biggest FA market ever, but he rush all of his trades and got little in return other then cap space."

Do you consider Amare Stoudemire little in return?

knicks1248 - We had a good team going into the 08 season, and donnie and mike made sure they spoiled that plan by slapping marbury around, and pushing the panic button on JC and Zach trade way to early.

2008? Sheesh.

knicks1248 - I wouldn't give donnie an extension unless this team makes a real playoff run

A "real" playoff run? As opposed to a fake playoff run?

How is that "real" defined?

Dude lets be honest with ourselves, this team (as some would like to belive) is not a lock to make the playoffs, were 2 games over 500 and 4 games from the 9th spot...If we don't make the playoffs, poeple we surely be calling for the coach or the our GMs head, or both for the matter.

If we make it to the playoffs get swept ot lose in 5 games would it even matter that we extended or season for a week or 2. thats a fake playoff run (see the bucks 2010/2011 record)

What donnie has done, any GM (outside of thomas) was capable of doing..I heard Chris B with his own mouth( this morning) say MDA called thomas and had him talk with amare about meeting with the knicks.

I don't like thomas as a GM or coach, but make no mistake, he has more of an influence and personal relationships with NBA players then walsh and MDA have put together. Thats no secret.

I like donnie, don't get me wrong, but I would wait til the season is over before i give him anything

grillco wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I keep hering this talk about donnie extension, and he might leave...

I like what donnie has done, but lets not get carried away here, yes the knicks are more entertaining, but he was the one that stack the team with rental players, and i don't know if he was expecting those players to play there asses off(so far fetch) for 1 or 2 seasons.

He put us in a position to be players in in the biggest FA market ever, but he rush all of his trades and got little in return other then cap space..It wouldn't have taken a guru to do this..We had a good team going into the 08 season, and donnie and mike made sure they spoiled that plan by slapping marbury around, and pushing the panic button on JC and Zach trade way to early. Then following that up by trading draft picks for more cap space with houston.

Not one single player last year had anything to play for, other then to show case there indivule skills..I wouldn't give donnie an extension unless this team makes a real playoff run ( at least 2nd rnd)

I hear what you're saying, but do you really think that the team that was Thomas-era leftovers and the players Walsh brought in to field a team that wasn't the absolute worst in the league had any real chance to go anywhere? Marbury, Crawford, and Zach? That is not a contending team now or ever. The team they have now iis clearly better and has the record to prove it. The team after the Melo trade goes through (if it goes through) might even be a bit better, but it's not going to be a championship team either. Donnie had the plan and made it happen when Zeke couldn't move any of the horrible contracts and players he brought in. Now Dolan is getting his stank on the deal and potentially screwing things up by messing with Walsh's plan. Donnie was the man with the plan that was sold to Dolan, Dolan is panicking and he needs his father to take the team away from him, because he's a baffoon.

There's very little proof to confirm if the 08 squad was better then this current squad..as a matter of fact, we were a game over 500 right before the trade (12 games into the season) so im not sure how you can say this squad is better. That

Last years team was worse only cause none of the players gave a rats ass (except david lee)

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

misterearl wrote:Say What?

knicks1248 - "(Donnie Walsh) put us in a position to be players in in the biggest FA market ever, but he rush all of his trades and got little in return other then cap space."

Do you consider Amare Stoudemire little in return?

knicks1248 - We had a good team going into the 08 season, and donnie and mike made sure they spoiled that plan by slapping marbury around, and pushing the panic button on JC and Zach trade way to early.

2008? Sheesh.

knicks1248 - I wouldn't give donnie an extension unless this team makes a real playoff run

A "real" playoff run? As opposed to a fake playoff run?

How is that "real" defined?

Dude lets be honest with ourselves, this team (as some would like to belive) is not a lock to make the playoffs, were 2 games over 500 and 4 games from the 9th spot...If we don't make the playoffs, poeple we surely be calling for the coach or the our GMs head, or both for the matter.

If we make it to the playoffs get swept ot lose in 5 games would it even matter that we extended or season for a week or 2. thats a fake playoff run (see the bucks 2010/2011 record)

What donnie has done, any GM (outside of thomas) was capable of doing..I heard Chris B with his own mouth( this morning) say MDA called thomas and had him talk with amare about meeting with the knicks.

I don't like thomas as a GM or coach, but make no mistake, he has more of an influence and personal relationships with NBA players then walsh and MDA have put together. Thats no secret.

I like donnie, don't get me wrong, but I would wait til the season is over before i give him anything

wow that seems new. Never heard it.

I have also heard Amare say that Thomas had zero impact on his decision and that he never talked with him. Zero, nada.

kid you not martin, he said that on First Take this morning, when they asked him weather thomas was actually in the loop..

that seems incredibly odd to me. MDA already knew Amare. Why would he need to call Thomas and have HIM talk to Amare to set up a meeting with Knicks. If Knicks and Amare want to meet, GM calls agent and sets up meet. Why is coach calling 3rd party to call player?

Childs2Dudley wrote:Broussard is an Isiah fanboy.

Many don't remember but he was a writer/blogger for ESPN when Stephen A Smith was the go-to insider. He replaced Stephen A. When this guy was writing/blogging all he did was blow Isiah. Every move he praised. He's another loser butt buddy of Isiah's just like Stephen A.

that's my impression too.