Isn't it obvious by now that he values 3 point shooting over rebounding, shot blocking, defense, and pretty much everything else that matters to winning. There is no freaking way this system is ever going to win a championship. Yes, I know the Suns came close, but they had the perfect personnel for the system (a very unique combination of talents) and one of the best PGs in the history of the NBA that was also perfect for the system.

It pains me to say this because I was very happy when we got him and he's a very likable guy because of his sense of humor etc... But we are accumulating the wrong type of personnel, playing the wrong players, etc... and are in the process of building a perennial playoff team that will never get out of the second round. We will be totally locked into it long term because of the contracts. We are a Melo trade away from that kind of doom. The combo of Melo and Amare can never win. They are both great scorers (a problem), but neither is great at anything else (a bigger problem).

KNICKSdom wrote:I believe Randolph will play if he is still around after the trade deadline. Not sure if he will be traded for a 1st rd pick without a Melo deal on the table. His fate rests in Walsh's hands until the deadline passes.

Probably this, but still disappointing that he can't get some burn in a game like this.

CrushAlot wrote:

martin wrote:

KNICKSdom wrote:I believe Randolph will play if he is still around after the trade deadline. Not sure if he will be traded for a 1st rd pick without a Melo deal on the table. His fate rests in Walsh's hands until the deadline passes.

Probably this, but still disappointing that he can't get some burn in a game like this.

I agree. I love Amare but I thought his being out would give Amare a chance. Turiaf and Moz getting into foul trouble and he still doesn't get any burn is pretty frustrating. I was looking at a Hahn article or interview the other day where he rated the offseason pickups and also said who he would trade for Melo. He rated Randolph's acquisition as a b, which was a higher rating than everyone else except for amare(Felton was a b-). I get very frustrated with this need for bigs to be able to shoot the three in order to play. I think Randolph is somewhere in between Odom and Camby as a player. Golden State fans did not want him included in the Lee trade. D'Antoni has not handled him well.

Yea it is absolutely mindfocking disappointing Randolph is not even getting burn in a game like this. Go figure.

CrushAlot wrote:

martin wrote:

KNICKSdom wrote:I believe Randolph will play if he is still around after the trade deadline. Not sure if he will be traded for a 1st rd pick without a Melo deal on the table. His fate rests in Walsh's hands until the deadline passes.

Probably this, but still disappointing that he can't get some burn in a game like this.

I agree. I love Amare but I thought his being out would give Amare a chance. Turiaf and Moz getting into foul trouble and he still doesn't get any burn is pretty frustrating. I was looking at a Hahn article or interview the other day where he rated the offseason pickups and also said who he would trade for Melo. He rated Randolph's acquisition as a b, which was a higher rating than everyone else except for amare(Felton was a b-). I get very frustrated with this need for bigs to be able to shoot the three in order to play. I think Randolph is somewhere in between Odom and Camby as a player. Golden State fans did not want him included in the Lee trade. D'Antoni has not handled him well.

These developments are puzzling. The example I use is Jared Jeffries. His role was defense, the ability to guard multiple positions. He also was allowed to shoot when he saw an opportunity. Fast forward to this year's team, and a similar player, with probably a better skillset, can't make it on to the court. Situational subsitutions could spike our defensive presence and give us some badly needed height on the floor.

TMS wrote:

MSG3 wrote:AR isn't playing because he's getting traded no matter what. They want to protect him as much as possible.

i don't buy that... we're playing everyone else that's currently involved in trade rumors... AR doesn't play because MDA doesn't think he can contribute to a W that's fine, but what gets me is when we see guys like Mozgov on the floor looking like a trainwreck for most of the game & yet AR can't see the light of day off the bench even when both our bigs get into foul trouble & our star bigman isn't available... playing Shawne Williams at the 5 is ridiculous.

I don't understand why you want to describe Timo's play as looking like a train wreck. The kid has been effective as far as i'm concerned. No he's not perfect and he's got a long way to go in his development, but he's been effective in covering the C spot for good stretches of the game. He's giving us what we need on the most basic level and he should get better and better.

Why AR isn't getting any real shot is hard to know. I do think that it comes down to trust. The coach just doesn't trust AR and at this point in the season, he's gonna go with guys he trusts. Alan Hahn only just recently mentioned AR looking more into it in practice and that may be too little, too late! Perhaps if he busted it like Timo all year, he wouldn't be in this position. IF the other coaches felt that AR was showing so much in practice and workouts that he deserved to be in the rotation, i'm positive that they'd make a case for him to Mike. We heard those positive reports about Timo.

TMS wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TMS wrote:

MSG3 wrote:AR isn't playing because he's getting traded no matter what. They want to protect him as much as possible.

i don't buy that... we're playing everyone else that's currently involved in trade rumors... AR doesn't play because MDA doesn't think he can contribute to a W that's fine, but what gets me is when we see guys like Mozgov on the floor looking like a trainwreck for most of the game & yet AR can't see the light of day off the bench even when both our bigs get into foul trouble & our star bigman isn't available... playing Shawne Williams at the 5 is ridiculous.

I don't understand why you want to describe Timo's play as looking like a train wreck. The kid has been effective as far as i'm concerned. No he's not perfect and he's got a long way to go in his development, but he's been effective in covering the C spot for good stretches of the game. He's giving us what we need on the most basic level and he should get better and better.

Why AR isn't getting any real shot is hard to know. I do think that it comes down to trust. The coach just doesn't trust AR and at this point in the season, he's gonna go with guys he trusts. Alan Hahn only just recently mentioned AR looking more into it in practice and that may be too little, too late! Perhaps if he busted it like Timo all year, he wouldn't be in this position. IF the other coaches felt that AR was showing so much in practice and workouts that he deserved to be in the rotation, i'm positive that they'd make a case for him to Mike. We heard those positive reports about Timo.

not sure what game u watched last night but Mozgov looked real bad... he was fumbling almost every ball passed to him in the paint, missed a few dunks at point blank range, constantly got faked into silly fouls, missed a ton of defensive assignment rotations, failed to box out for rebounds & looked like he had no idea where he should be on the floor.

That wasn't an easy matchup last night. The Nets have legit size and ability inside. Lopez and Favors is a tough tandem to deal with. Like I said him making mistakes or not looking fully developed isn't the issue. He played good man D on Lopez and made him work. Yes he committed dumb fouls again, but for the 20 minutes he played he wasn't bad.

With regard to AR vs. Timo, i'll say this, Timo has an actual position and he has shown that he can make a jumper, draw fouls and convert at the FT line. He catches most good passes and except for not using more deception when going up for dunks, he's doing most of the right things when he's in there. You can't say that AR would look the same in the same role, cuz he's not really a C and he's not a PF either. He isn't nearly as good a jump shooter and I don't think he's as good setting picks and rolling. He couldn't guard Lopez the way Timo did. I think AR can rebound and block some shots, but I don't know what he'd be useful for on offense.

TMS wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TMS wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TMS wrote:

MSG3 wrote:AR isn't playing because he's getting traded no matter what. They want to protect him as much as possible.

i don't buy that... we're playing everyone else that's currently involved in trade rumors... AR doesn't play because MDA doesn't think he can contribute to a W that's fine, but what gets me is when we see guys like Mozgov on the floor looking like a trainwreck for most of the game & yet AR can't see the light of day off the bench even when both our bigs get into foul trouble & our star bigman isn't available... playing Shawne Williams at the 5 is ridiculous.

I don't understand why you want to describe Timo's play as looking like a train wreck. The kid has been effective as far as i'm concerned. No he's not perfect and he's got a long way to go in his development, but he's been effective in covering the C spot for good stretches of the game. He's giving us what we need on the most basic level and he should get better and better.

Why AR isn't getting any real shot is hard to know. I do think that it comes down to trust. The coach just doesn't trust AR and at this point in the season, he's gonna go with guys he trusts. Alan Hahn only just recently mentioned AR looking more into it in practice and that may be too little, too late! Perhaps if he busted it like Timo all year, he wouldn't be in this position. IF the other coaches felt that AR was showing so much in practice and workouts that he deserved to be in the rotation, i'm positive that they'd make a case for him to Mike. We heard those positive reports about Timo.

not sure what game u watched last night but Mozgov looked real bad... he was fumbling almost every ball passed to him in the paint, missed a few dunks at point blank range, constantly got faked into silly fouls, missed a ton of defensive assignment rotations, failed to box out for rebounds & looked like he had no idea where he should be on the floor.

That wasn't an easy matchup last night. The Nets have legit size and ability inside. Lopez and Favors is a tough tandem to deal with. Like I said him making mistakes or not looking fully developed isn't the issue. He played good man D on Lopez and made him work. Yes he committed dumb fouls again, but for the 20 minutes he played he wasn't bad.

With regard to AR vs. Timo, i'll say this, Timo has an actual position and he has shown that he can make a jumper, draw fouls and convert at the FT line. He catches most good passes and except for not using more deception when going up for dunks, he's doing most of the right things when he's in there. You can't say that AR would look the same in the same role, cuz he's not really a C and he's not a PF either. He isn't nearly as good a jump shooter and I don't think he's as good setting picks and rolling. He couldn't guard Lopez the way Timo did. I think AR can rebound and block some shots, but I don't know what he'd be useful for on offense.

good man D on Lopez??? dude he wasn't even on the floor for 3/4s of the game because of foul trouble... it was Turiaf or Shawne Williams guarding Lopez for much of the game... he was also totally out of synch with Felton i saw him try & throw him a few alley oop passes & Mozgov didn't even attempt to go for them thinking they were shot attempts instead... they weren't the greatest passes from Felton either i will give him that but Mozgov just looked lost out there last night... & i don't get what you expect "most good passes" to be, i saw Wilson throw him a nice bounce pass right into Mozgov's gut & he fumbled that too & ended up turning the ball over... does the pass need to be right in his hands while he's on the way towards the basket with a wide open lane to be considered a good pass? IMO Mozgov has bad hands, he is playing too fast for his own ability he's looking to dunk the ball before he even has it in his hands, that's not good... he needs to correct this it's a serious issue... u see NFL WR's do that all the time when they drop balls they're looking to make their next move before they even secure the ball in their hands... when Mozgov is trying to catch the ball in traffic that's what he does all the time... he needs to calm down & stop spazzing out.

You're making this too much about this one game. Overall I can see why Mike is using Timo vs. AR. He's gonna need time to get fully comfortable, but I can see at least the makings of a useful C from Timo. Tell me what position in this offense is AR really ready to play? AR is much more of a project than Timo. He's got more raw talent than Timo, but in a practical sense most of it goes wasted cuz he hasn't learned how to use it within a team concept. He's all potential and no actual game right now.