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Toney Douglas Do What Toney Douglas Do!
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knicks1248
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1/3/2011  11:22 AM
TMS wrote:
rvwink wrote:"i dunno but i didn't see all that much out of TD last night to think he turned some corner"

The stats say that Toney had 7 assists in 29 minutes. But more telling evidence came from MDA. His playing Toney in the tight closing minutes of a game he thought he had to win says a lot imo.

How could you not see Toney's progress particularly because he clearly was looking to feed others a large number of his trips down the court in the Pacer's game. Quibbling that Toney is not yet a polished point guard is not relevant. He still has the right to be a work in progress imo based on his not playing point guard in College. I am confused why you don't think he is moving in a positive direction?

yeah i know what the stats say... i also watched the game & i know on at least 2 occasions Amare bailed TD out by making a tough shot off a dish off TD made to him in coverage... this wasn't him setting up Amare for an easy bucket, it was Amare making something out of nothing... so yeah, TD got credit for the assist, but that didn't show me much of anything in terms of his ability to orchestrate an offense... i'd also like to get your take on that boneheaded exchange i described underneath our basket that almost resulted in a very costly turnover... is it quibbling to point out these things that happen during the game & only focus on the boxscore?

as for MDA trusting TD down the stretch, it's a big step in his progress i agree, but as i already pointed out i didn't see that much out of him down the stretch other than that made 3 pointer in the corner that really stood out... i don't think Landry has done anything to really be benched down the stretch of games either.

I agree with you here, but amare has also had to cover up for some of feltons bogus PnR passes.

The one thing that I do give TD credit for is his abilty to play the passing lanes, he does it better then anybody on the court.

ES
AUTOADVERT
TMS
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1/3/2011  11:27 AM
SupremeCommander wrote:I don't really agree with this. I am a big TD supporter (go back to those threads about which young Knick would have the most impact over his career--I said TD) but I thought his shot selection leaves a lot to be desired. A lot of the time his shot disrupts the flow of the offense. It also seems like he is either in "shoot" or "pass" mode when he has the ball, that he can't yet react to what the defense gives him. There is still a lot to be desired with TD and I'm kind of confused with a praise thread for his development because I've found his play to be incredibly frustrating

i agree w/this analysis... i'm also a TD supporter, i wanted him seeing more minutes last year so he could develop his PG skills during a season we weren't contending for anything... but right now i agree he's still got a ways to go in his development & i don't buy that he's taken the next step towards becoming a viable PG option... the point you made about him being in "shoot" or "pass" mode & needing to react to what the defense gives him is 100% dead on... TD is fine when it comes to penetrating & getting off his shots in traffic, but when it comes to trying to run the offense & reacting to what the defense is allowing him to do, it's still not instinctual... he's taking baby steps but he hasn't gotten to the next level where we can say he's where we need him to be as a PG.

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
rvwink
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1/3/2011  12:22 PM
Bippity10 wrote:
but he still had some brain farts that would suggest he has not yet turned this mythical corner. Let's give him 20-30 games of play like this before we declare this

I read the frequent announcements that the Knicks need to find someone else to be their back up point guard. Toney Douglas brings a lot of good things to the Knicks. His defense, his competitiveness/heart and his high work ethic are not easily duplicated. I don't even think he acknowledged that Toney had a good game... .

I freely admit that I don't want to see Toney deprived of a continuing opportunity to become a back up point guard for the Knicks. So my protest about what TMS wrote, was that I don't think he clearly acknowledged that Toney was continuing to make progress in his previous post.
TMS
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1/3/2011  12:48 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
TMS wrote:
rvwink wrote:"i dunno but i didn't see all that much out of TD last night to think he turned some corner"

The stats say that Toney had 7 assists in 29 minutes. But more telling evidence came from MDA. His playing Toney in the tight closing minutes of a game he thought he had to win says a lot imo.

How could you not see Toney's progress particularly because he clearly was looking to feed others a large number of his trips down the court in the Pacer's game. Quibbling that Toney is not yet a polished point guard is not relevant. He still has the right to be a work in progress imo based on his not playing point guard in College. I am confused why you don't think he is moving in a positive direction?

yeah i know what the stats say... i also watched the game & i know on at least 2 occasions Amare bailed TD out by making a tough shot off a dish off TD made to him in coverage... this wasn't him setting up Amare for an easy bucket, it was Amare making something out of nothing... so yeah, TD got credit for the assist, but that didn't show me much of anything in terms of his ability to orchestrate an offense... i'd also like to get your take on that boneheaded exchange i described underneath our basket that almost resulted in a very costly turnover... is it quibbling to point out these things that happen during the game & only focus on the boxscore?

as for MDA trusting TD down the stretch, it's a big step in his progress i agree, but as i already pointed out i didn't see that much out of him down the stretch other than that made 3 pointer in the corner that really stood out... i don't think Landry has done anything to really be benched down the stretch of games either.

I agree with you here, but amare has also had to cover up for some of feltons bogus PnR passes.

The one thing that I do give TD credit for is his abilty to play the passing lanes, he does it better then anybody on the court.

absolutely, TD's defense has never been a question for me... love the work he puts in on the floor ballhawking & playing the passing lanes.

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
fishmike
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1/3/2011  2:01 PM
scoshin wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:I don't really agree with this. I am a big TD supporter (go back to those threads about which young Knick would have the most impact over his career--I said TD) but I thought his shot selection leaves a lot to be desired. A lot of the time his shot disrupts the flow of the offense. It also seems like he is either in "shoot" or "pass" mode when he has the ball, that he can't yet react to what the defense gives him. There is still a lot to be desired with TD and I'm kind of confused with a praise thread for his development because I've found his play to be incredibly frustrating

Yeah, whenever I watch him play, you can almost see when Toney has "decided to shoot" before he even launches. He predetermines plays, which is not a good attribute for a "point" guard.

However, there are times where we should appreciate the positives that Toney brings, instead of always harping on the negative. For a backup point, you gotta love how he takes care of the ball. He isn't careless with the ball and has a solid handle. He just has awful shot selection.

good post, I agree 100%. I think that "this possession I pass" vs. "this possession I shoot" shows that Douglas is still learning the NBA game.

At 24 years old he's a "mature" 2nd year player, but he's got 80something NBA games of experience. His decision making is going to be the slowest to mature. He can score, run the point and defend very well. He doesnt accumulate a lot of rebounds but he certainly helps on the boards. Like the rest of the young guys on this team he needs to learn consistancy. That comes with repetition, that comes with games played.

Knick fans need to be patient. Players improve year to year, not week to week.

I suspect there will be some tinkering and player movement but as of right now the Knicks have Gallo/Chandler/Douglas/Fields/Williams. Thats 5 of our 8 rotation players (Amare/Felton/Turiaf the other 3) who are either younger than 23, less than 2 years of NBA experience or both.

After losing for 10 years any other team's fans would be happy to sit back and watch this promising group grow together. However 1) we are Knick fans and as demonstrated by this board you cant build in NY 2) there is a perception that Amare has some short shelf life and the Knicks have 2-3 year window

I subscribe to neither. I'm cool with standing pat and watching this team get better. We still have some pieces in the pipeline in Mos/Jordan/AR I'm looking forward to seeing more from.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
GodSaveTheKnicks
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1/3/2011  5:08 PM
fishmike wrote:I subscribe to neither. I'm cool with standing pat and watching this team get better. We still have some pieces in the pipeline in Mos/Jordan/AR I'm looking forward to seeing more from.

Good point. Mozgov/Jordan/AR with another season of experience under their belt. That might be the attainable defending rebounding big we've all been looking for. Right under our noses.

Let's try to elevate the level of discourse in this byeetch. Please
nixluva
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1/3/2011  10:37 PM
I think TD has been progressively making fewer mistakes and looking sharper on his passes in the PnR. I'm not saying he's all the way there, thus he's turned the corner in IMO in that he's not looking like he's totally unsure. He now has moments when he reverts to his SG thought process, but it's been decreasing and it's noticeable. The last few games the 2nd unit has done much better when he's been running the point. It's not great but then I was never expecting him to be a pure Point. This thread is about seeing if anyone else has noticed the subtle improvements over the last few games which are very good signs IMO.

Remember too that in this system the PG is actually in attack mode very often. He's not supposed to be laying back and waiting or guys to move as he just stands at the top of the key. So the hard thing is always that split second decision of do I shoot or do I pass. That's on most plays that we run a PnR on. TD is gonna look shaky at times doing this, cuz he's a SG at heart, but I think he's been doing better at looking for his teammates. I hope it continues.
Bippity10
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1/4/2011  10:55 AM
subtle improvements is far different from "turning the corner". I think he is getting better and looks a lot better at the pick and roll then he did early in the season, and this has been a trend for a few games now(although he's still pretty awful at it).
I just hope that people will like me
Olbrannon
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1/4/2011  6:22 PM
nixluva wrote:TD has seemed to have turned a corner in his development! The last few games he's been doing more playmaking and looked much smarter overall on the court. His mistakes are diminishing and his good plays are increasing. I like what i'm seeing from him to be honest. He's not all the way there, but I think he's really actually getting better.

If you ignore stats and just look at purely PG decisions. TD just seems to my eye to be playing more like a PG than a SG. The bench has been better the last 2 games and it's due to TD holding the team together from the point.

He always seems to play best in the big games too. That and the big D and his effort level is what makes me a fan. I hope he gives Felton more rest and they can both be healthy at the end of the regular season. Remember that corner 3 he hit to tie the game? If he can't hit I suspect it's because he isn't healthy. Just sayin'

Bill Simmons on Tyreke Evans "The prototypical 0-guard: Someone who handles the ball all the time, looks for his own shot, gets to the rim at will and operates best if his teammates spread the floor to watch him."
nixluva
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1/4/2011  9:08 PM
Bippity10 wrote:subtle improvements is far different from "turning the corner". I think he is getting better and looks a lot better at the pick and roll then he did early in the season, and this has been a trend for a few games now(although he's still pretty awful at it).

OK perhaps my choice of words wasn't the best. I just feel like I see a much different player. I tend to really pay attention to small things that are done differently from one period of time to the next and over this last few games something has clicked and he's doing a much better job. Not saying he's all the way there.
Bippity10
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1/5/2011  1:37 PM
nixluva wrote:
Bippity10 wrote:subtle improvements is far different from "turning the corner". I think he is getting better and looks a lot better at the pick and roll then he did early in the season, and this has been a trend for a few games now(although he's still pretty awful at it).

OK perhaps my choice of words wasn't the best. I just feel like I see a much different player. I tend to really pay attention to small things that are done differently from one period of time to the next and over this last few games something has clicked and he's doing a much better job. Not saying he's all the way there.

I think once he takes that 3 point shot off the pick and roll out of his repetoire he will take another big step forward

I just hope that people will like me
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