TMS wrote:

martin wrote:

TMS wrote:martin, i'm hearing crickets on this one from you.

i missed this thread. What am I supposed to respond to? I don't think there was a notion that there weren't players who you could upgrade with. There are.

It's that there are too many positions to fill with just the MLE and LLE. I guess it all depends on what would be going out in a Melo deal and starts there.

Starting C, bench, backup PG.... all for MLE and LLE?

starting 5:
Amare $18,217,705
Chandler $6,300,000 (Bird exception) or Gallo $4,190,182
Melo $18,500,000
Fields $788,872
Felton $7,560,000

bench:
Turiaf $4,360,000
Moz $3,343,896
Rautins $788,872
Williams $788,872
----------------------------
$60,648,217 w/Chandler / $58,538,399 w/Gallo

that leaves you with the MLE & LLE to sign 2 of the players on the above list... u can put together any # of different combinations here depending on how u wanna go about it... if Wilson goes in a Melo trade, then offer the MLE to a defensive minded utility guy like a Shane Battier, Pietrus, Jerebko, AK47 or split the MLE between 2 guys like Louis Amundson & Fishlips... or if Gallo is being dealt, then you can fill his shooting role by adding someone like Mike Dunleavy Jr., Dante Cunningham, Vlad Radmanovic or Troy Murphy.

or u can shore up your frontcourt depth instead & sign a bigbody like Hawes, Pryzbilla, Davis, Evans, KMart, Landry, Krstic... hell u can even add Shaq's name to the list if u really wanted to (tho not too sure how he'd fit in MDA's system).

with the LLE u have the option of signing a backup PG like Earl Watson, Carlos Arroyo, JJ Barea, or go PG with your MLE like TJ Ford or Shannon Brown & offer the LLE to a defensive player like Fishlips

the point is, u have a ton of options if you make a deal for Melo... it's not the bare cupboad scenario that BRIGGS & yourself keep trying to paint.

No realism--you are in fantasy land--your trading for Carmelo thinking we just have to give up just one of Chandler or Gallo dude your in fantasy land.

TMS wrote:

cheers wrote:i like tms options but like all bipolar knicks fans i am changing my mind on melo. in that, if we dont get melo by trade deadline. i would like to see if ny can sign chandler for $8mil a year.

so basically you're saying you would rather sign Wilson to $8M this summer instead of Melo for the max... pretty much the same argument people made for David Lee over Amare, no?

dude you are in fantasy land. you not really i get your point, just this pic was cool to use.

my pov is i dont want donnie to risk clearing the deck even if he has a secret handshake complete with melo's wife flashing her boobs. you can not trust anyone to leave money on the table. so if X team has a dollar more than Y team. come f.a. X team is where the player will likely sign.

cheers wrote:

TMS wrote:

cheers wrote:i like tms options but like all bipolar knicks fans i am changing my mind on melo. in that, if we dont get melo by trade deadline. i would like to see if ny can sign chandler for $8mil a year.

so basically you're saying you would rather sign Wilson to $8M this summer instead of Melo for the max... pretty much the same argument people made for David Lee over Amare, no?

dude you are in fantasy land. you not really i get your point, just this pic was cool to use.

my pov is i dont want donnie to risk clearing the deck even if he has a secret handshake complete with melo's wife flashing her boobs. you can not trust anyone to leave money on the table. so if X team has a dollar more than Y team. come f.a. X team is where the player will likely sign.

You almost sound like a Cleveland fan circa 2009.

rvwink wrote:Before the Lakers started to win Championships in bunches, they improved their Center position significantly. Gasol didn't come cheaply, but his talent level and contribution was clearly worth what they paid. The problem with your roster upgrade is that the Knick's remain too weak down low, even with a mid level exemption guy in the paint. We needs someone who can shoot from the outside, rebound, defend and pass well. In short it is important to spend our "big" bucks on the center/pf, not the small forward where we already have a talented player with considerable upside.

who do you think we can get that can fill those standards as a free agent or trade? & do you think that player will be worth passing up a shot at adding a player like Melo to this roster? i've seen you agree with martin's proposal to target Nene, but he doesn't fill half of the requisites you just presented in terms of the type of C upgrade we need... he's not a good outside shooter & he's not a good rebounder... Marc Gasol is probably the top C available in free agency this summer, & he's also not a good outside shooter or rebounder for a player his size... & from all accounts, it seems as if MEM will do whatever they can to hold onto him anyway... so who do you have in mind that presents the type of upgrade you're looking for? if there were a star C out there we could trade for don't you think we'd be talking about him by now?

TMS wrote:

rvwink wrote:Before the Lakers started to win Championships in bunches, they improved their Center position significantly. Gasol didn't come cheaply, but his talent level and contribution was clearly worth what they paid. The problem with your roster upgrade is that the Knick's remain too weak down low, even with a mid level exemption guy in the paint. We needs someone who can shoot from the outside, rebound, defend and pass well. In short it is important to spend our "big" bucks on the center/pf, not the small forward where we already have a talented player with considerable upside.

who do you think we can get that can fill those standards as a free agent or trade? & do you think that player will be worth passing up a shot at adding a player like Melo to this roster? i've seen you agree with martin's proposal to target Nene, but he doesn't fill half of the requisites you just presented in terms of the type of C upgrade we need... he's not a good outside shooter & he's not a good rebounder... Marc Gasol is probably the top C available in free agency this summer, & he's also not a good outside shooter or rebounder for a player his size... & from all accounts, it seems as if MEM will do whatever they can to hold onto him anyway... so who do you have in mind that presents the type of upgrade you're looking for? if there were a star C out there we could trade for don't you think we'd be talking about him by now?

You both speak the truth. All the "Elite" teams in the L have elite defensive bigs with a semblance of an offensive game, with the exception of Miami, who have (what some would say) are THE best 2 wings in the L. Dwight Howard, KG/Perkins combo, Pau/Odom/Bynum, Duncan. yeah i'm using the L because it's shorter than the NBA or the League.

Even Chicago (3rd in the east) has Boozer/Noah. Atlanta (4th) has Smith/Horford. The other two teams that would make the playoffs if the season ended today owe a lot of their success to a breakout season from Hibbert (Indiana) and the continued excellence of Bogut, whose carried the Bucks despite their roster being hammered by injuries to their backcourt players (Jennings, Maggette, Delfino).

However, TMS makes a valid point. Even if We can all agree that (HUGE stretch coming here) a big man who can defend the paint, space the floor and rebound is a bigger need than a scoring wing, these guys are hard to obtain. I mean...if the rumours are right Chicago killed a potential Melo deal because they wouldn't give up Noah. In terms of pure basketball talent Melo is leagues better than Noah but Noah possesses something Melo will never have: height.

There are guys we can realisticaly target who are elite rebounders: Zach Randolph, Camby, Varejao (big maybe) and Okafor (if the Hornets blow it up). Out of these guys you can scrap Randolph if you want a good defender. None of them can shoot from outside. Troy Murphy can rebound and shoot from outside but defense is not a strength. If the Knicks spend on a big man he'll be flawed. Better option: flawed big or Melo?

If you want an elite big he's gonna have to come via trade or you're going to have to be patient and do something like sign Melo but try to make sure we have cap flexibility JUST in case of:

Howard in 2011/12 offseason. This is kind of super wishful thinking and depends on Orlando sucking.

Gerald Wallace. FA after next season. Could be an option if Charlotte blows it up. I think they should but MJ might disagree and do something like trade for Baron Davis and try to roll with Baron/Captain Jack/and Wallace. I can see Gerald Wallace fitting in as a small ball 4 with Amare at 5 and adding some rebounding/shotblocking. I dunno if Wallace is a great 1 on 1 defender and could lock down 4s though..

Okur and Kaman are also FAs after next season but again they only have 2 out of 3 of the outside shooting/rebounding/defense platter.

AFTER the 2012/2013 season Al Jefferson and Josh Smith are FAs and so is Hibbert but again I think the Pacers lock down Hibbert.

The silver lining for failing to land Melo would be that there are always options when you have cap space and assets. I mean if we somehow got Joe Johnson this past offseason Melo might not even be a reality, 0 way we sign Melo as a FA with JJ and Amare and Felton on the books right? I don't even know if Denver would take Joe Johnson in a trade if they're trying to rebuild and get younger.

rvwink wrote:The middle level exception starts at $5.6 million. Nene's salary is twice that number. Do you think he might be quite a bit better than what you will get if you get someone like Carl Landry? He is 6' 11. He is very strong but has kept his weight down to 250. He runs the floor very quickly. He plays defense and rebounds. He also is good at the pick and roll. Because of his high shooting percentage, I don't think there will be a risk that opponents will drop off of him to double Amare. He will be able to keep the offense going much better, when Amare takes a break. Is he a superstar, so that he fits the formula of 2 superstars, probably no. But he is close and with his outside shooting, speed and interior defense, Nene will make a big contribution to the Knicks. Then on top of that, he allows us the extra cap room to make other improvements to our lineup, above and beyond what your budget allowed us to do.

in my honest opinion, i happen to think Carl Landry is a better basketball player than Nene... the only thing Nene does better than Landry is being bigger & block shots... i'd sooner trade for Melo & sign Landry to the MLE to play w/Amare in the frontcourt... he can also work in the PnR & can knock down a midrange J & defend his position... MDA likes to play Amare at the 5 anyway, i don't see Nene as an upgrade over a guy like Landry at all.

rvwink & martin:

Nene averaging 6.9 rebounds in 31.3 mpg... that pretty much sucks for a starting NBA center... ranks #14 at the position & #26 in per 48 min projections at C... Carmelo Anthony is the top rebounding SF in the game this year at 8.3 per contest & averaging more in both categories (per game & per 48 min) over Nene... i don't see how Nene provides this upgrade in the rebounding department that you guys are referring to.

TMS wrote:i think it's obvious we need a top flight rebounder on this team... Reggie Evans is 1 of the top rebounders in the NBA (12.1 in only 27 mpg) & i believe he's a realistic target with the MLE this summer... he's also a great post defender... depending on if he can make it back healthy before the year is over, IMO he's a MUCH better fit for our needs than Nene or Gasol, who are 2 guys that like to work in the post & would pretty much clog up the lane for Amare... the NY fans would absolutely love that guy, the quintessential lunch pale go to work & get his hands dirty type of player.

if you add a healthy Reggie Evans & Melo, i think we're pretty much set for now, at least until some elite C becomes available down the road... throw in either a shooter like Vlad Rad or a backup PG like Watson or Arroyo using the LLE & i think that's as good as anyone could possibly hope for this team to be... even if we DON'T land Melo, i would prefer to get Evans than either Nene or Gasol.

There are some good reasons to go with a guy like Evans. We need to get high value rather than overpay for some guy that we only need for rebounding. If you want to get a guy like Melo, that's what you'd save the bulk of your money for and then be smart and find a low cost banger on the boards.

Right now we could use a rebounder and maybe they are still working on AR to see if he can develop. Timo is a horrid rebounder right now and I don't think he's anywhere close. AR might just be a possibility if we can get his head right. I hope they keep working on him and see if down the road he can help. I don't think Mike and Donnie have completely given up on him yet. that's just my gut feeling.

TMS wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TMS wrote:i think it's obvious we need a top flight rebounder on this team... Reggie Evans is 1 of the top rebounders in the NBA (12.1 in only 27 mpg) & i believe he's a realistic target with the MLE this summer... he's also a great post defender... depending on if he can make it back healthy before the year is over, IMO he's a MUCH better fit for our needs than Nene or Gasol, who are 2 guys that like to work in the post & would pretty much clog up the lane for Amare... the NY fans would absolutely love that guy, the quintessential lunch pale go to work & get his hands dirty type of player.

if you add a healthy Reggie Evans & Melo, i think we're pretty much set for now, at least until some elite C becomes available down the road... throw in either a shooter like Vlad Rad or a backup PG like Watson or Arroyo using the LLE & i think that's as good as anyone could possibly hope for this team to be... even if we DON'T land Melo, i would prefer to get Evans than either Nene or Gasol.

There are some good reasons to go with a guy like Evans. We need to get high value rather than overpay for some guy that we only need for rebounding. If you want to get a guy like Melo, that's what you'd save the bulk of your money for and then be smart and find a low cost banger on the boards.

Right now we could use a rebounder and maybe they are still working on AR to see if he can develop. Timo is a horrid rebounder right now and I don't think he's anywhere close. AR might just be a possibility if we can get his head right. I hope they keep working on him and see if down the road he can help. I don't think Mike and Donnie have completely given up on him yet. that's just my gut feeling.

i think AR's gonna be dealt in some kind of deal eventually & not sure if we'll ever get anything out of Mozgov, he seems like such a project still.

if ar doesnt get dealt then that only means dolan hired that shrink mda has been needing to work on his coach chemistry with players who do not make him feel comfortable. heheh. ya ar gets dealt. meh. what can ya do i guess we all have our quirks.

I said Nene was a fast Center/PF who could run with our team. I said he could play the pick and roll, and play interior defense. I said that his shooting average was over 60% so teams couldn't drop off of him to double Amare. So you neglected all of that and pretended that all that mattered was Nene's 7 rebounds a game. I am also astonished that you thought Carl Landry was better than Nene.

Carl Landry isn't even the consistent starting power forward in Sacramento, one of the worst teams in the league. His coach keeps changing the starter between Carl, J Thompson and D Jackson. At 6'8", how is Carl going to rebound well against the Boston or Lakers front lines? {David Lee was a great rebounder, but against the elite teams, even he had difficulty because he too was undersized.}

Denver is paying Nene $11 million and he is well worth what they are paying him. Sacramento is paying Carl Landry $3 million and you say you like Landry better? It appears that Houston didn't like him at $3 million when they traded him to Sacramento. Why is a guy as good as Nene, traded out of Houston and then not able to start consistently for Sacramento? Finally your suggestion that Marc Gasol is the top center this summer doesn't take into account the qualities that MDA insists on for his centers. Marc Gasol simply isn't quick footed enough to play for MDA.

BRIGGS wrote:

Denver is paying Nene $11 million and he is well worth what they are paying him. Sacramento is paying Carl Landry $3 million and you say you like Landry better? It appears that Houston didn't like him at $3 million when they traded him to Sacramento. Why is a guy as good as Nene, traded out of Houston and then not able to start consistently for Sacramento? Finally your suggestion that Marc Gasol is the top center this summer doesn't take into account the qualities that MDA insists on for his centers. Marc Gasol simply isn't quick footed enough to play for MDA.

I agree with you long term--but for *this* year I would love to make small deals for smaller contracts like Grant Hill or Landry/Thompson(either or) agree with you long term. What can Landry or Thompson do with the Knicks as opposed to the Kings? Well they would be able to give interior scoring and help--a place where we are perilously thin. What did Labdry provide witht he Rockets in 27 minutes off the bench--16-6 54%--thats very good production. What did Thompson do in 27 min-11-7 that is very good production. I think that Scaremento team is so bad that we cant see any of the guys we might be interested in for this year play at a peak level or close to it. Guys like grant Hill or Jason Thompson(as in both)--they could possibly give me very high value for this year--who knows how much they can make us better---possibly pit us to a level where we can compete with any team. Id rather have immediate help then sit on two players that will give me no value--I stronly believe that neither Mosgov or Randolph will give the team on the floor the value it needs for them to play a significant back up role. So my take is move them to rebuilding teams for players we can use who also have ending and or smallish contracts--and then lets look at the bench players available next year--for next year. Im wary of paying Nene a 5 years 60mm contract with his knee history which is worse than Amare's. I dont think I would spend so much allocated money on him--I might hes a very good player and obviously would help us but the cost/risk factor is very high.

I can see maybe Sacramento moving Landry for an asset cause he is in last year of deal, but why would they even consider moving Thompson?

rvwink wrote:Carl Landry isn't even the consistent starting power forward in Sacramento, one of the worst teams in the league. His coach keeps changing the starter between Carl, J Thompson and D Jackson. At 6'8", how is Carl going to rebound well against the Boston or Lakers front lines?{David Lee was a great rebounder, but against the elite teams, even he had difficulty because he too was undersized.}

Denver is paying Nene $11 million and he is well worth what they are paying him. Sacramento is paying Carl Landry $3 million and you say you like Landry better? It appears that Houston didn't like him at $3 million when they traded him to Sacramento. Why is a guy as good as Nene, traded out of Houston and then not able to start consistently for Sacramento? Finally your suggestion that Marc Gasol is the top center this summer doesn't take into account the qualities that MDA insists on for his centers. Marc Gasol simply isn't quick footed enough to play for MDA.

yes, i'd rather have Landry than Nene... Landry was 16 & 6 playing off the bench in Houston last year while shooting 55% from the field... undersized he may be but he doesn't let that stop him from defending his position... he makes a fraction of what Nene is making & he puts up similar production... i'd say that makes him a much better value, both in terms of his salary as well as his comparable production... Nene's production has spiked during a contract year, something that raises red flags with me... if you look at his #'s over his NBA career, they are very comparable to Carl Landry's totals in every category except for averaging 1.5 more rebounds & 1 more assist per game while averaging 5 more minutes per contest... how do you justify his salary? we're not talking about some superstar player here in Nene Hilario... 3 added inches in height don't mean much if you're not producing relative to that size advantage, something Nene has consistently not been able to do over his NBA career.

btw, Houston traded Landry to Sacramento in order so they could land Kevin Martin... trying to suggest he was a dump is beyond ridiculous... he was a central part of that trade... why he's not starting consistently in SAC i couldn't tell u... i haven't watched enough Kings games to get a sense of the type of basketball they like to play or get a feel of the back stories going on behind the scenes with the head coach & players... maybe Landry has struggled with the transition to a new system, or maybe the coach is trying to evaluate different combinations to get the right formula like MDA always tries to do... when your team is losing games this certainly isn't all that hard to fathom is it?

as for Marc Gasol, i'm actually agreeing with u that i don't see him as a good fit... but i don't see Nene as one either... i'm sorry but if i'm gonna invest $11.6M into a starting C, he better be able to pull down more than 7 rebounds a night... i'd much rather go after a guy like Okafor over Nene to tell u the truth if u wanna keep this strictly to NBA centers... at least w/him you know you're gonna get double digit rebounds & 2 blocked shots every night.