martin wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:- My take on the poll that just went up: I don't think the Knicks should give up anything for Melo... if he REALLY wants to play in NY, he'll come this summer. They can't trump NJ's best offer so why not play the "hey, aren't we better off keeping our nucleus, then adding you to it this summer?" card.

This.

We need to show him that we want him as much as he wants us. We need to make an offer, doesn't have to be a great offer, but should involved 1 of our 3 starters he would replace (Gallo, Fields, or Chandler), AR or a pick to replace him, cash, curry, and maybe Douglas if we can make arrangements to replace him (i.e. Telfair.) If he's putting all this pressure to force his way to NY we have to work with it a little and make it happen now. Then it will be left in Denver's court.

scoshin wrote:

martin wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:Plus, if TMS is right that we'd have to renounce Chandler to have cap room for Melo we're still not getting him scott free. It adds up to a trade being the most equinimious scenario all round. And even if that means nothing to Melo, I don't think Donnie is one to burn bridges.

with creativity Knicks have enough caproom to sign Melo to $16M+ in offseason and keep Chandler if they want. Or if Melo is not moved before trade deadline and Knicks know this, they can move Chandler or others for very good value. Renouncing makes zero sense.

What creativity? The cap rules are plainly there for us fans to read and understand. All it takes is some math to realize we can't keep Chandler. His cap hold this summer will be $6.4M, not the listed $3M you listed (that's his qualifying offer, not his cap hold).

And how can they move Chandler? If they don't trade him before the deadline, then they can't trade him at all until July in a S&T. During that period in June, you're not allowed to trade players that are entering FA (or have an option to do so). And if we're S&Ting Chandler, it HAS to be to a team with the cap space to absorb his contract, cause we can't add any salaries back. That severely limits our trade partners. Note, for example, if LeBron had chosen NY, we would've had to renounce David Lee and couldn't have made the S&T with GS cause the players we received back would've impacted the cap. It's why that S&T was made post-Decision.

what about just moving Moz for picks and cap space? Or Turiaf? or TD? I mean, that wasn't too hard.

The other stuff you said about not taking salary back doesn't make sense to me and doesn't really add up.

And I don't get what you mean about June. If Melo on Denver in June, neither he NOR Chandler can do much until July, so it don't matter either way.

BlueSeats wrote:

martin wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:

martin wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:Plus, if TMS is right that we'd have to renounce Chandler to have cap room for Melo we're still not getting him scott free. It adds up to a trade being the most equinimious scenario all round. And even if that means nothing to Melo, I don't think Donnie is one to burn bridges.

with creativity Knicks have enough caproom to sign Melo to $16M+ in offseason and keep Chandler if they want. Or if Melo is not moved before trade deadline and Knicks know this, they can move Chandler or others for very good value. Renouncing makes zero sense.

16M.

And what is it if he re-signs and trades?

not sure I understand your question. Right now Denver is offering a 3 you extension on top of what Melo is getting now, so perhaps:

 			2010/11		2011/12		2012/13		2013/14		2014/15
Carmelo Anthony 	$17,149,243 	$18,518,575 	$20,000,061 	$21,600,065 	$23,868,072

And quite frankly those numbers are totally ridiculous for Melo. They are way beyond and above what Amare, Bosh, Wade, LeBron are getting paid. Those are Kobe number AFTER he started winning championships. It's part of the other reason I don't want Melo at those extended $'s

FWIW, Melo is currently the 13th highest paid player in the league, not an outrageous position. And it's uncommon to expect a player to take a pay cut in his prime (Melo is 26, I think). All which is simply to say, asking to wait till summer to take a pay cut is not exactly a selling point vs a re-sign and trade.

I think if Melo does get traded to the Knicks he may want more than just 3 years. If we're UNDER the cap could we pull what OKC did with Collison?

"The Thunder had $6.5 million in available cap space this season, so they gave it to Collison as a signing bonus applied to this season. Which means Collison is making a whopping $13.3 million this season when you add in the nearly $6.8 million he was already making.

But next year he makes a much more reasonable $3.3 million and makes less each year of the deal down to $2.2 million at the end of it. Which gives the Thunder a lot more room going forward when they have to pay Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook and the other guys who will make the big money.

Clever"

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/11/24/thunder-get-creative-with-nick-collison%E2%80%99s-contract/

crap never mind. we're already over the cap this season.

BlueSeats wrote:

martin wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:

martin wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:Plus, if TMS is right that we'd have to renounce Chandler to have cap room for Melo we're still not getting him scott free. It adds up to a trade being the most equinimious scenario all round. And even if that means nothing to Melo, I don't think Donnie is one to burn bridges.

with creativity Knicks have enough caproom to sign Melo to $16M+ in offseason and keep Chandler if they want. Or if Melo is not moved before trade deadline and Knicks know this, they can move Chandler or others for very good value. Renouncing makes zero sense.

16M.

And what is it if he re-signs and trades?

not sure I understand your question. Right now Denver is offering a 3 you extension on top of what Melo is getting now, so perhaps:

 			2010/11		2011/12		2012/13		2013/14		2014/15
Carmelo Anthony 	$17,149,243 	$18,518,575 	$20,000,061 	$21,600,065 	$23,868,072

And quite frankly those numbers are totally ridiculous for Melo. They are way beyond and above what Amare, Bosh, Wade, LeBron are getting paid. Those are Kobe number AFTER he started winning championships. It's part of the other reason I don't want Melo at those extended $'s

FWIW, Melo is currently the 13th highest paid player in the league, not an outrageous position. And it's uncommon to expect a player to take a pay cut in his prime (Melo is 26, I think). All which is simply to say, asking to wait till summer to take a pay cut is not exactly a selling point vs a re-sign and trade.

No doubt about it.

And I would retort to Melo: You wanna win or you wanna deplete the assets of the entire team to take us out of the competitive deep-playoff range.

Melo ain't LeBron and he knows it. I would just show him the salaries of the big 3 in Miami and tell him to take what they are making ($16M next year). Or the Knicks should build the team with Plan B, Plan C, etc, which I am sure Donnie has all lined up.

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/miami.htm

What other team has cap room next year that Melo would want to go to?

BlueSeats wrote: And FWIW, a re-sign and trade doesn't preclude a salary cut.

That's a dumb point - the object of a salary cut would be to retain assets, which becomes irrelevant if we give them up to get him. Disregard.

martin wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:

And I would retort to Melo: You wanna win or you wanna deplete the assets of the entire team to take us out of the competitive deep-playoff range.

No doubt, but on top of the monetary sacrifice sticking it to Denver takes a certain kind of spite that I don't see justification for from Melo or Walsh.

As for plan B, C, etc. Yes, as I've always said, we put a fair trade forward and let the chips fall where they may. But that's different from thinking all we gotta do is wait until summer and we gets him for free. And FWIW, a re-sign and trade doesn't preclude a salary cut.

I don't understand the spite angle. Is it the same one Bosh, LeBron, Amare, Boozer all just took?

Didn't some of those teams get picks, etc, in return?

Melo needs the ball to be effective. Chandler is one of the stronger players in the league physically and is only maturing. Gallo is just touching the surface. We have a team right now. I don't want to go all in because Fields, Chandler and Gallo are all going to get better. Anthony is who he is and that is an elite scorer.

Every good team has lots of depth and that's the only way you win in this league. Why trade it away for a wildcard.

martin wrote:

scoshin wrote:

martin wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:Plus, if TMS is right that we'd have to renounce Chandler to have cap room for Melo we're still not getting him scott free. It adds up to a trade being the most equinimious scenario all round. And even if that means nothing to Melo, I don't think Donnie is one to burn bridges.

with creativity Knicks have enough caproom to sign Melo to $16M+ in offseason and keep Chandler if they want. Or if Melo is not moved before trade deadline and Knicks know this, they can move Chandler or others for very good value. Renouncing makes zero sense.

What creativity? The cap rules are plainly there for us fans to read and understand. All it takes is some math to realize we can't keep Chandler. His cap hold this summer will be $6.4M, not the listed $3M you listed (that's his qualifying offer, not his cap hold).

And how can they move Chandler? If they don't trade him before the deadline, then they can't trade him at all until July in a S&T. During that period in June, you're not allowed to trade players that are entering FA (or have an option to do so). And if we're S&Ting Chandler, it HAS to be to a team with the cap space to absorb his contract, cause we can't add any salaries back. That severely limits our trade partners. Note, for example, if LeBron had chosen NY, we would've had to renounce David Lee and couldn't have made the S&T with GS cause the players we received back would've impacted the cap. It's why that S&T was made post-Decision.

what about just moving Moz for picks and cap space? Or Turiaf? or TD? I mean, that wasn't too hard.

The other stuff you said about not taking salary back doesn't make sense to me and doesn't really add up.

And I don't get what you mean about June. If Melo on Denver in June, neither he NOR Chandler can do much until July, so it don't matter either way.

We have $44.2M committed next season. That's if we renounce Chandler. If we hold onto his rights, his cap hold adds $6.4M, and we go up to $50.6M. That's less than $10M in cap space, and that's assuming the cap goes up to $60M.

Explain to me how we're clearing another $8M in salaries so we can resign Chandler and sign Melo. Moz and Turiaf make $7M combined, but how are we going to just dump them on another team? It took us two potential 1st round picks and Jordan Hill to move Jeffries' $7M.

As for your second question, if we want to S&T Chandler to some team, while still being able to sign Melo to the max, we can't take back any contracts in a Chandler S&T, like we did with David Lee. Doing so would just hurt our ability to sign a max. The only teams we can S&T Chandler to while taking no contracts back are teams that are under the cap and can absorb the salary.

As for the June part, you said that if Melo isn't moved before the deadline, the Knicks can just decide to move Chandler for good value. How exactly? If the deadline passes and Chandler is still on the team, we can't trade him until July. And once it's July, we're limited to S&T's with teams who have cap space.