TMS wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:I can relate to D'Antoni 100%. If you came into one of my camps out of shape, you basically just told me that I can't trust you. You now have to earn my trust to get on the court. If you work hard and are talented it won't be long before you are playing. If you pout and stop working YOU WILL NEVER SEE THE COURT NO MATTER HOW TALENTED YOU ARE.

again, i'm not arguing w/u over the fact that Darko had a crappy attitude last year... but i'm sorry i can't relate to D'Antoni at all when he plays Jonathan Bender over Darko & Jordan Hill, i'm sorry... i don't care how great of an attitude Bender came in with, he didn't deserve to see playing time over guys who had been involved w/the team in training camp & who could have addressed our need for a shotblocking presence... we can go back & forth on this til the cows come home, you're not going to ever convince me that MDA's decision to play Bender was warranted last year... it made absolutely zero sense to me.

if a GM gives you a guy who could possibly help the team but hasn't played in the league... would you sit him or play him for a stretch to see what he can do?

Bippity10 wrote:

TMS wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:I can relate to D'Antoni 100%. If you came into one of my camps out of shape, you basically just told me that I can't trust you. You now have to earn my trust to get on the court. If you work hard and are talented it won't be long before you are playing. If you pout and stop working YOU WILL NEVER SEE THE COURT NO MATTER HOW TALENTED YOU ARE.

again, i'm not arguing w/u over the fact that Darko had a crappy attitude last year... but i'm sorry i can't relate to D'Antoni at all when he plays Jonathan Bender over Darko & Jordan Hill, i'm sorry... i don't care how great of an attitude Bender came in with, he didn't deserve to see playing time over guys who had been involved w/the team in training camp & who could have addressed our need for a shotblocking presence... we can go back & forth on this til the cows come home, you're not going to ever convince me that MDA's decision to play Bender was warranted last year... it made absolutely zero sense to me.

1.) Again, Bender barely played the last 58 games of the year, so I'm still not sure I understand how this is remotely relevant for Hill or Darko. If the guy was averaging 35 minutes a night I maybe could slightly understand your point, but he barely played. There were plenty of minutes for both Hill and Darko

2.) Being involved in training camp means nothing. If that was the case then you wouldn't play someone that you traded for midseason because they weren't involved in training camp. If you don't work hard your minutes are always at jeopardy to disappear and be given to ANYONE. Whether it's a guy off the street, from the d-league, from ultimate knicks. If you don't work hard your minutes are in jeopardy. Works that way with every coach.

3.) Do you think Riley/Popovich, Sloan are giving minutes to guys that aren't working hard just because they were in camp

4.) Agreed, I will never agree with your logic on this one. We are in the process of changing the culture here in NY. A culture of entitlement, whining and drama with a culture of hard work and effort. Darko's attitude was part of the old school. Hill's apparently was as well. Good riddance.

playing Jonathan Bender a guy who had zero knowledge of this system, who had been coming in off 4 years of inactivity, a guy who had 2 broken down knees that could barely run up & down the court, you're telling me playing a guy like that right off the bat after 1 practice fits under the label of the new culture we're trying to establish? please dude... he was taking minutes away from a #8 lottery selected rookie, no matter how limited those minutes were, the fact remains Jordan Hill should have been seeing those minutes, & if not him then Darko at the very least considering the fact our biggest need last year was a shotblocking presence... you seriously gonna tell me you're happy about how that situation was handled? we benefitted by sitting Jordan Hill & playing Jonathan Bender how exactly? please explain to me how a coach can reason to his team that a guy coming in off the street that hadn't played basketball in 4 years could see minutes over a guy who we just drafted in the lottery & had been practicing w/the team all offseason & learning the system.

we need a reliable big that comes off the bench who can score and a healthy azu--then this team wins 50 games and goes far in the playoffs.

Bippity10 wrote:

TMS wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

TMS wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:I can relate to D'Antoni 100%. If you came into one of my camps out of shape, you basically just told me that I can't trust you. You now have to earn my trust to get on the court. If you work hard and are talented it won't be long before you are playing. If you pout and stop working YOU WILL NEVER SEE THE COURT NO MATTER HOW TALENTED YOU ARE.

again, i'm not arguing w/u over the fact that Darko had a crappy attitude last year... but i'm sorry i can't relate to D'Antoni at all when he plays Jonathan Bender over Darko & Jordan Hill, i'm sorry... i don't care how great of an attitude Bender came in with, he didn't deserve to see playing time over guys who had been involved w/the team in training camp & who could have addressed our need for a shotblocking presence... we can go back & forth on this til the cows come home, you're not going to ever convince me that MDA's decision to play Bender was warranted last year... it made absolutely zero sense to me.

1.) Again, Bender barely played the last 58 games of the year, so I'm still not sure I understand how this is remotely relevant for Hill or Darko. If the guy was averaging 35 minutes a night I maybe could slightly understand your point, but he barely played. There were plenty of minutes for both Hill and Darko

2.) Being involved in training camp means nothing. If that was the case then you wouldn't play someone that you traded for midseason because they weren't involved in training camp. If you don't work hard your minutes are always at jeopardy to disappear and be given to ANYONE. Whether it's a guy off the street, from the d-league, from ultimate knicks. If you don't work hard your minutes are in jeopardy. Works that way with every coach.

3.) Do you think Riley/Popovich, Sloan are giving minutes to guys that aren't working hard just because they were in camp

4.) Agreed, I will never agree with your logic on this one. We are in the process of changing the culture here in NY. A culture of entitlement, whining and drama with a culture of hard work and effort. Darko's attitude was part of the old school. Hill's apparently was as well. Good riddance.

playing Jonathan Bender a guy who had zero knowledge of this system, who had been coming in off 4 years of inactivity, a guy who had 2 broken down knees that could barely run up & down the court, you're telling me playing a guy like that right off the bat after 1 practice fits under the label of the new culture we're trying to establish? please dude... he was taking minutes away from a #8 lottery selected rookie, no matter how limited those minutes were, the fact remains Jordan Hill should have been seeing those minutes, & if not him then Darko at the very least considering the fact our biggest need last year was a shotblocking presence... you seriously gonna tell me you're happy about how that situation was handled? we benefitted by sitting Jordan Hill & playing Jonathan Bender how exactly? please explain to me how a coach can reason to his team that a guy coming in off the street that hadn't played basketball in 4 years could see minutes over a guy who we just drafted in the lottery & had been practicing w/the team all offseason & learning the system.

Let's try this again. You seem to be confusing your perception with facts

1.) There are 144 minutes at the SF,PF and Center position. Bender got 11! Why do you act like he got major minutes. There are now 133 minutes left over. Gallo, Harrington, and Lee combined for 101 minutes. That leaves 32 minutes per game for Hill and/or Darko to take advantage of. Who did those minutes go to? They went to JJ/Wilson. Why? Because JJ busts his butt and the other two did not. There were plenty of minutes for the team to test Bender and still get shot blocking from Hill and Darko. But the two did not take advantage of those minutes. Plus, again Bender barely played the last 58 games, but by then the two guys had sabotaged themselves

2.) Did you have a problem with the team giving a shot to Earl Barron over these two guys even though he hadn't played in a year? Why did he deserve minutes over them?

3.) If you come to camp out of shape TMS you are off the team until you earn your way back onto the team. In the NFL they just cut you because contracts aren't guaranteed. In the NBA unfortunately you have to hold on to the guys and listen to the fans criticize you for not playing the guy tha isn't working hard while still expecting you to have a team that works hard.

dude, you keep saying Bender only got 11 minutes... so what??? he shouldn't have been getting ANY minutes! that's the point i'm making... i would much rather have seen Jordan Hill or even Darko getting those minutes... i'm speaking as a fan, not from a coach's perspective... i have no coaching knowledge to fall back on like u do... i'm asking u how u justify to YOUR team as a coach that you're playing a broken down vet off the street that hadn't played in 4 years over a kid who had supposedly been drafted high by your franchise because they saw a ton of promise in him... whether Bender was getting 11 minutes or 35+, the point remains the same.

Earl Barron produced on the court... Jonathan Bender didn't... & yes, to tell u the truth i did have a problem w/playing a journeyman vet like Barron at the end of the season when we were already far out of the playoff hunt rather than giving max burn to Jordan Hill... Barron for his part put up very good numbers in the time he got, so if he was potentially factoring into our future plans in MDA's eyes, than so be it... i don't think Jordan Hill ever even got a realistic chance in NY to show much of anything & to me, that's inexcusably bad handling of a lottery pick... this is not me paining for the return of Jordan Hill, i'm just pissed how his situation was handled by MDA... Darko's situation could have been handled better but whatever, MDA obviously didn't think he could factor into our future plans.

TMS wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

TMS wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

TMS wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:I can relate to D'Antoni 100%. If you came into one of my camps out of shape, you basically just told me that I can't trust you. You now have to earn my trust to get on the court. If you work hard and are talented it won't be long before you are playing. If you pout and stop working YOU WILL NEVER SEE THE COURT NO MATTER HOW TALENTED YOU ARE.

again, i'm not arguing w/u over the fact that Darko had a crappy attitude last year... but i'm sorry i can't relate to D'Antoni at all when he plays Jonathan Bender over Darko & Jordan Hill, i'm sorry... i don't care how great of an attitude Bender came in with, he didn't deserve to see playing time over guys who had been involved w/the team in training camp & who could have addressed our need for a shotblocking presence... we can go back & forth on this til the cows come home, you're not going to ever convince me that MDA's decision to play Bender was warranted last year... it made absolutely zero sense to me.

1.) Again, Bender barely played the last 58 games of the year, so I'm still not sure I understand how this is remotely relevant for Hill or Darko. If the guy was averaging 35 minutes a night I maybe could slightly understand your point, but he barely played. There were plenty of minutes for both Hill and Darko

2.) Being involved in training camp means nothing. If that was the case then you wouldn't play someone that you traded for midseason because they weren't involved in training camp. If you don't work hard your minutes are always at jeopardy to disappear and be given to ANYONE. Whether it's a guy off the street, from the d-league, from ultimate knicks. If you don't work hard your minutes are in jeopardy. Works that way with every coach.

3.) Do you think Riley/Popovich, Sloan are giving minutes to guys that aren't working hard just because they were in camp

4.) Agreed, I will never agree with your logic on this one. We are in the process of changing the culture here in NY. A culture of entitlement, whining and drama with a culture of hard work and effort. Darko's attitude was part of the old school. Hill's apparently was as well. Good riddance.

playing Jonathan Bender a guy who had zero knowledge of this system, who had been coming in off 4 years of inactivity, a guy who had 2 broken down knees that could barely run up & down the court, you're telling me playing a guy like that right off the bat after 1 practice fits under the label of the new culture we're trying to establish? please dude... he was taking minutes away from a #8 lottery selected rookie, no matter how limited those minutes were, the fact remains Jordan Hill should have been seeing those minutes, & if not him then Darko at the very least considering the fact our biggest need last year was a shotblocking presence... you seriously gonna tell me you're happy about how that situation was handled? we benefitted by sitting Jordan Hill & playing Jonathan Bender how exactly? please explain to me how a coach can reason to his team that a guy coming in off the street that hadn't played basketball in 4 years could see minutes over a guy who we just drafted in the lottery & had been practicing w/the team all offseason & learning the system.

Let's try this again. You seem to be confusing your perception with facts

1.) There are 144 minutes at the SF,PF and Center position. Bender got 11! Why do you act like he got major minutes. There are now 133 minutes left over. Gallo, Harrington, and Lee combined for 101 minutes. That leaves 32 minutes per game for Hill and/or Darko to take advantage of. Who did those minutes go to? They went to JJ/Wilson. Why? Because JJ busts his butt and the other two did not. There were plenty of minutes for the team to test Bender and still get shot blocking from Hill and Darko. But the two did not take advantage of those minutes. Plus, again Bender barely played the last 58 games, but by then the two guys had sabotaged themselves

2.) Did you have a problem with the team giving a shot to Earl Barron over these two guys even though he hadn't played in a year? Why did he deserve minutes over them?

3.) If you come to camp out of shape TMS you are off the team until you earn your way back onto the team. In the NFL they just cut you because contracts aren't guaranteed. In the NBA unfortunately you have to hold on to the guys and listen to the fans criticize you for not playing the guy tha isn't working hard while still expecting you to have a team that works hard.

dude, you keep saying Bender only got 11 minutes... so what???

Again because there were still plenty of minutes for them to play.

Let's say you were the Knicks starting PG. You came to camp fat and out of shape and didn't work hard(I know you aren't because I've seen pictures). On a separate note, the team decided to give Allanfan a chance and brought him in even though he has never played an NBA game. They gave him 11 minutes a night to see if he can play. There's still 37 minutes of PG play left. IF you continue to be fat and out of shape, should I as a coach play you or give those minutes to someone that isn't fat and out of shape. You're the better player so you should get the minutes. But unfortunately you are fat and out of shape. So your minutes are going to go to someone else taht is not fat and out of shape. You aren't losing minutes to Allanfan. You aren't losing minutes to the other person we give the minutes too. You can blame anyone you want. You can complain about politics all you want. But the reason has nothing to do with any of this. The reason you aren't getting minutes is because you are fat and out of shape

Darko and Hill did not lose minutes because we brought in Bender any more then Toney Douglas did. They lost minutes because they came to camp out of shape.

TMS wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:Let's say you were the Knicks starting PG. You came to camp fat and out of shape and didn't work hard(I know you aren't because I've seen pictures). On a separate note, the team decided to give Allanfan a chance and brought him in even though he has never played an NBA game. They gave him 11 minutes a night to see if he can play. There's still 37 minutes of PG play left. IF you continue to be fat and out of shape, should I as a coach play you or give those minutes to someone that isn't fat and out of shape. You're the better player so you should get the minutes. But unfortunately you are fat and out of shape. So your minutes are going to go to someone else taht is not fat and out of shape. You aren't losing minutes to Allanfan. You aren't losing minutes to the other person we give the minutes too. You can blame anyone you want. You can complain about politics all you want. But the reason has nothing to do with any of this. The reason you aren't getting minutes is because you are fat and out of shape

Darko and Hill did not lose minutes because we brought in Bender any more then Toney Douglas did. They lost minutes because they came to camp out of shape.

you mean like how Chris Duhon came into camp fat & out of shape but still got big minutes to play over a hard working kid like Toney Douglas all year?

Biiiiiiiiiig difference........Duhon had already earned the coaches trust from the year before, where Darko and Hill had not. This goes back to our conversation earlier when I said "coaches do play favorites". Duhon played well for D'Antoni the year before so he got the benefit of the doubt. He became one of D'Antoni's favorites. D'Antoni did not know Hill or Darko from a hole in the wall. They had not earned his trust. There is no equality here, no life is not always fair in sports. But you have to understand as a player where you stand and be ready when opportunities present themselves. I think you keep waiting for everything to be fair. For everyone to get an equal shot. Doesn't work that way. Earn a coaches trust and you will play. Be marginal and untrustworthy and ride the pine. But you'll notice that Duhon's string was cut at some point as well. He had a longer string because he had earned the coaches trust, but eventually he lost the coaches trust by not snapping out of his funk and like Hill and Darko he road the pine as well. He then had to earn his way back into the lineup just like they did

TMS wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

TMS wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:Let's say you were the Knicks starting PG. You came to camp fat and out of shape and didn't work hard(I know you aren't because I've seen pictures). On a separate note, the team decided to give Allanfan a chance and brought him in even though he has never played an NBA game. They gave him 11 minutes a night to see if he can play. There's still 37 minutes of PG play left. IF you continue to be fat and out of shape, should I as a coach play you or give those minutes to someone that isn't fat and out of shape. You're the better player so you should get the minutes. But unfortunately you are fat and out of shape. So your minutes are going to go to someone else taht is not fat and out of shape. You aren't losing minutes to Allanfan. You aren't losing minutes to the other person we give the minutes too. You can blame anyone you want. You can complain about politics all you want. But the reason has nothing to do with any of this. The reason you aren't getting minutes is because you are fat and out of shape

Darko and Hill did not lose minutes because we brought in Bender any more then Toney Douglas did. They lost minutes because they came to camp out of shape.

you mean like how Chris Duhon came into camp fat & out of shape but still got big minutes to play over a hard working kid like Toney Douglas all year?

Biiiiiiiiiig difference........Duhon had already earned the coaches trust from the year before, where Darko and Hill had not. This goes back to our conversation earlier when I said "coaches do play favorites". Duhon played well for D'Antoni the year before so he got the benefit of the doubt. He became one of D'Antoni's favorites. D'Antoni did not know Hill or Darko from a hole in the wall. They had not earned his trust. There is no equality here, no life is not always fair in sports. But you have to understand as a player where you stand and be ready when opportunities present themselves. I think you keep waiting for everything to be fair. For everyone to get an equal shot. Doesn't work that way. Earn a coaches trust and you will play. Be marginal and untrustworthy and ride the pine. But you'll notice that Duhon's string was cut at some point as well. He had a longer string because he had earned the coaches trust, but eventually he lost the coaches trust by not snapping out of his funk and like Hill and Darko he road the pine as well. He then had to earn his way back into the lineup just like they did

i will give u that Duhon had earned MDA's trust, but u can't tell me hard work gets rewarded but kids like Toney Douglas who probably worked harder than anyone else on this team all year didn't get any burn until Donnie Walsh started travelling with the team... i think there are other issues involved here other than whoever works the hardest gets to play... i think that is oversimplifying matters... IMO there were tons of politics involved behind the scenes that led to guys getting minutes & touches on the floor over other guys.

There is also learning curve for Toney, no?

Dude still is limited in PG play THIS year and was much improved over last year.

TMS wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

TMS wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:Let's say you were the Knicks starting PG. You came to camp fat and out of shape and didn't work hard(I know you aren't because I've seen pictures). On a separate note, the team decided to give Allanfan a chance and brought him in even though he has never played an NBA game. They gave him 11 minutes a night to see if he can play. There's still 37 minutes of PG play left. IF you continue to be fat and out of shape, should I as a coach play you or give those minutes to someone that isn't fat and out of shape. You're the better player so you should get the minutes. But unfortunately you are fat and out of shape. So your minutes are going to go to someone else taht is not fat and out of shape. You aren't losing minutes to Allanfan. You aren't losing minutes to the other person we give the minutes too. You can blame anyone you want. You can complain about politics all you want. But the reason has nothing to do with any of this. The reason you aren't getting minutes is because you are fat and out of shape

Darko and Hill did not lose minutes because we brought in Bender any more then Toney Douglas did. They lost minutes because they came to camp out of shape.

you mean like how Chris Duhon came into camp fat & out of shape but still got big minutes to play over a hard working kid like Toney Douglas all year?

Biiiiiiiiiig difference........Duhon had already earned the coaches trust from the year before, where Darko and Hill had not. This goes back to our conversation earlier when I said "coaches do play favorites". Duhon played well for D'Antoni the year before so he got the benefit of the doubt. He became one of D'Antoni's favorites. D'Antoni did not know Hill or Darko from a hole in the wall. They had not earned his trust. There is no equality here, no life is not always fair in sports. But you have to understand as a player where you stand and be ready when opportunities present themselves. I think you keep waiting for everything to be fair. For everyone to get an equal shot. Doesn't work that way. Earn a coaches trust and you will play. Be marginal and untrustworthy and ride the pine. But you'll notice that Duhon's string was cut at some point as well. He had a longer string because he had earned the coaches trust, but eventually he lost the coaches trust by not snapping out of his funk and like Hill and Darko he road the pine as well. He then had to earn his way back into the lineup just like they did

i will give u that Duhon had earned MDA's trust, but u can't tell me hard work gets rewarded but kids like Toney Douglas who probably worked harder than anyone else on this team all year didn't get any burn until Donnie Walsh started travelling with the team... i think there are other issues involved here other than whoever works the hardest gets to play... i think that is oversimplifying matters... IMO there were tons of politics involved behind the scenes that led to guys getting minutes & touches on the floor over other guys.

I never said hard work gets rewarded. No one ever said the player that works the hardest gets to play I said hard work gets you opportunity. It's up to you to then seize that opportunity. Hill and Darko did not work hard so when the opportunity for minutes presented itself and the coach had a choice between two lazy guys and two off the street guys that hadn't played in years and a 6-11 guy that couldn't make a lay-up, guess what..............

Opportunity missed.

TD did work hard and when opportunity presented itself at the end of the year, the team did not go out and recruit a D leaguer or a guy that hadn't played in years, instead they gave him 30+ minutes a night and a chance to be a major player this year.

Moral of the story: Work hard

He didn't play with any effort here and I don't feel sorry for him.

Good for him that he's picking up his play in low-pressure Minnesota. I hope he continues playing well for my fantasy team.

TMS wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:Milicic accepted responsibility for not working hard enough once he fell out of favor with the team last season and apologized to D'Antoni and his brother, assistant coach Dan D'Antoni.
"I said 'It didn't work out,'" Milicic said. "I wished it worked out. I loved New York. I thought it was going to work out but when I got there and saw how it was going to be it wasn't for me. For me, last year I needed a lot of playing time to get my confidence back. Here it's different, this year I came in shape."

"I tell (Mozgov) to do the opposite like I did," Milicic said. "I don't know how it will be for him, if he plays a lot. When I didn't play, I stepped aside. You need to work a lot and I didn't do it. If he doesn't play, practice hard."

His numbers this year have nothing to do with last years minutes

from his quote, his numbers had everything to do with his minutes last year... he came in with a good outlook but saw right away that he wasn't going to get any playing time, so he started to slack off... his attitude sucked that much he admitted to, but one can easily argue that if he knew he'd be a part of the regular rotation, that the effort would have been there in practice... personally i think MDA played Fishlips way too many minutes last year & a big chunk of those minutes could easily have been divvy'd up between Darko & Jordan Hill, especially in a season where shotblocking was our obvious glaring need all year.

+1

Good post TMS. I agree with you here. I believe that confidence has a lot to do with your production out there on the basketball court. If his coach gave him minutes and confidence last year, he would have done better. I like D'Antoni as a coach but he seems to have this habit of just dumping guys and burying them on the bench too quickly for my taste. If you play a guy like Mozgov a lot of minutes and he makes mistakes, then good, let him learn from his mistakes. Dont bury him on the bench. Burying guys on the bench doesnt make them better, it makes them worse.