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Time to panic
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Solace
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11/12/2010  11:15 PM
oohah wrote:
franco12 wrote:But, Walsh has done a really good job of fixing the damage. Its not fully repaired, but I think the roster and direction have both been realigned and pointed in the right direction.

Walsh got the Knicks under the cap. I don't see that the same as fixing damage. Better drafting would have been fixing damage in my eyes. The team just signed Stoudemire to franchise money and is likely headed for 30 wins. I can't see that as having fixed anything.

oohah

You're combining paints and then saying it's a paint soup; you went a bit too far. Do you think this team is more talented than last year's squad or not?

Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
AUTOADVERT
franco12
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11/12/2010  11:16 PM
oohah wrote:
franco12 wrote:But, Walsh has done a really good job of fixing the damage. Its not fully repaired, but I think the roster and direction have both been realigned and pointed in the right direction.

Walsh got the Knicks under the cap. I don't see that the same as fixing damage. Better drafting would have been fixing damage in my eyes. The team just signed Stoudemire to franchise money and is likely headed for 30 wins. I can't see that as having fixed anything.

oohah

Even with Amare signed to big money, there is youth and flexibility.

Yes, we've screwed up the draft and the trade for mcgrady a questionable one- especially since we don't own our own future.

CrushAlot
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11/12/2010  11:17 PM
oohah wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:The owner is a problem but he is willing to spend money. The coach doesn't prepare his team for individual opponents and his peers have called him out for this. The coach plays an undersized line up and the philosophy behind it is that teams will have to adjust to the mismatches he creates. When things go wrong, it appears that he focuses on perfecting his offense so that those things don't happen again. There is no way that the Knicks can win anything with Amare playing as their only big. There is no way they can win with this guy. I cringe anytime a game is close in the fourth quarter and he has to call a play to put his team in a position to win or force an overtime. Tonight it turned into a jump ball. He is a mess and his philosophy is wrong for the NBA. He had the perfect point guard in Phoenix and close to the perfect roster but his ego got in the way. It is time to move on.

The buck stops with the owner after 10 years of losing. The only constant has been the owner. D'Antoni was a bad hire, but I guarantee you Dolan told Walsh to go get him.

oohah

I agree with that. He is a big name chaser but Walsh needs to make the move and get rid of D'Antoni. He has protected him to this point and has been extremely loyal. I think he has a ton of character and feels like he owes D'Antoni something but there is nothing that D'Antoni has done that has shown he is even a competent coach without a stacked roster of all stars where he can step aside and let them play and they can be successful despite his coaching.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
franco12
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11/12/2010  11:19 PM
oohah wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:The owner is a problem but he is willing to spend money. The coach doesn't prepare his team for individual opponents and his peers have called him out for this. The coach plays an undersized line up and the philosophy behind it is that teams will have to adjust to the mismatches he creates. When things go wrong, it appears that he focuses on perfecting his offense so that those things don't happen again. There is no way that the Knicks can win anything with Amare playing as their only big. There is no way they can win with this guy. I cringe anytime a game is close in the fourth quarter and he has to call a play to put his team in a position to win or force an overtime. Tonight it turned into a jump ball. He is a mess and his philosophy is wrong for the NBA. He had the perfect point guard in Phoenix and close to the perfect roster but his ego got in the way. It is time to move on.

The buck stops with the owner after 10 years of losing. The only constant has been the owner. D'Antoni was a bad hire, but I guarantee you Dolan told Walsh to go get him.

oohah

D'Anshmoni wasn't a bad hire- he was the best available at the time.

However, he's been exposed, and I wonder what kind of a next NBA job he'll get after he gets fired from here.

Walsh should have been more forceful the first two years as far as tanking and developing youth.

oohah
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11/12/2010  11:19 PM
Solace wrote:
You're combining paints and then saying it's a paint soup; you went a bit too far. Do you think this team is more talented than last year's squad or not?

I don't understand your metaphor.

This team's roster is more talented because on many nights they have the best player on the floor in Stoudemire. But they overpaid for him and they are still bad. Other than that the talent on the Knicks is roughly equal to last seasons' team.

What I care about is wins. I'll take a lesser talented team that wins over a more talented team that loses.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
oohah
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11/12/2010  11:21 PM
franco12 wrote:D'Anshmoni wasn't a bad hire- he was the best available at the time.

However, he's been exposed, and I wonder what kind of a next NBA job he'll get after he gets fired from here.

Walsh should have been more forceful the first two years as far as tanking and developing youth.

D'Antoni was overrated...ergo he may not have been the best available. It doesn't make sense to chase a franchise coach and sign him to a big extended contract without the franchise talent to go with him, especially if the coach is going to behave like an ass.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Solace
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11/12/2010  11:22 PM
oohah wrote:
Solace wrote:
You're combining paints and then saying it's a paint soup; you went a bit too far. Do you think this team is more talented than last year's squad or not?

I don't understand your metaphor.

This team's roster is more talented because on many nights they have the best player on the floor in Stoudemire. But they overpaid for him and they are still bad. Other than that the talent on the Knicks is roughly equal to last seasons' team.

What I care about is wins. I'll take a lesser talented team that wins over a more talented team that loses.

oohah

My only comment would be that we weren't winning before, so at least we have a younger, more talented team. I'm starting to concede that the problem really is the coach. You can't win a game when your team doesn't play the fourth quarter. That's on the coach.

P.S.: The metaphor was intentionally nonsensical.

Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
oohah
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11/12/2010  11:25 PM
Solace wrote:
My only comment would be that we weren't winning before, so at least we have a younger, more talented team. I'm starting to concede that the problem really is the coach. You can't win a game when your team doesn't play the fourth quarter. That's on the coach.

P.S.: The metaphor was intentionally nonsensical.


Ahhh, I see. Well I don't think the Knicks are appreciably more talented outside of Stoudemire, but they are younger. I don't see youth as a goal in and of itself after the Knicks spent 2 years trying to land 2 franchise players. The goal is to be good and win some games.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
CrushAlot
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11/12/2010  11:25 PM
oohah wrote:
franco12 wrote:D'Anshmoni wasn't a bad hire- he was the best available at the time.

However, he's been exposed, and I wonder what kind of a next NBA job he'll get after he gets fired from here.

Walsh should have been more forceful the first two years as far as tanking and developing youth.

D'Antoni was overrated...ergo he may not have been the best available. It doesn't make sense to chase a franchise coach and sign him to a big extended contract without the franchise talent to go with him, especially if the coach is going to behave like an ass.

oohah

There was a great article by Wojo that touched on what happened with the Suns before D'Antoni left and why he was the wrong coach for the Knicks. I just reposted on another thread but it was spot on as far as why he was the wrong hire.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
franco12
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11/12/2010  11:26 PM
oohah wrote:
franco12 wrote:D'Anshmoni wasn't a bad hire- he was the best available at the time.

However, he's been exposed, and I wonder what kind of a next NBA job he'll get after he gets fired from here.

Walsh should have been more forceful the first two years as far as tanking and developing youth.

D'Antoni was overrated...ergo he may not have been the best available. It doesn't make sense to chase a franchise coach and sign him to a big extended contract without the franchise talent to go with him, especially if the coach is going to behave like an ass.

oohah

I think its debatable that he was considered overrated. Some might have thought, but I think the common, accepted view was he was a top level coach that would create a winning foundation.

He's been, I think, thoroughly exposed.

I had no problem signing him to help turn things around. But at this point, I think its obvious he is not good.

CrushAlot
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11/12/2010  11:31 PM
Here is the Wojo article. He called his shot two plus years ago and in my opinion he nailed it.

Big Apple could take big bite out of D’Antoni

By Adrian Wojnarowski, Yahoo! Sports
May 11, 6:20 am EDT

ShareretweetEmailPrintThe genesis of the New York Knicks president’s infatuation with Mike D’Antoni rewinds to an ironic and failed courtship eight years ago. As an old friend of the past Pacers general manager tells it, Donnie Walsh wanted D’Antoni for an assistant coaching job. They met, talked for hours and Walsh was mesmerized by a journeyman’s vision of bringing Euro offensive principles to the NBA.

Yes, Walsh wanted to hire D’Antoni as the Pacers offensive coordinator, but there was one problem.

Isiah Thomas didn’t want him on his Indiana coaching staff.

More From Adrian WojnarowskiHeat folding under weight of season Nov 12, 2010 Bench duty doesn't suit Riley – for now Nov 11, 2010 As usual, Thomas was misguided. D’Antoni would’ve been a terrific offensive mind on the Pacers bench. Yet this time, it is Walsh making the mistake. For a lot of teams, D’Antoni would be a wise hiring. For a franchise on a run of success, stocked with talent and self-motivators, the new Knicks coach would’ve made sense.

For New York, this is a mistake.

Wrong coach, wrong time.


The Knicks need toughness.


Discipline.

Accountability.


On his best day on the job, D’Antoni brings none of these elements to Madison Square Garden. Basketball doesn’t need to be fun in New York. It doesn’t need to be entertaining. Most of all, New York wants tough, relentless teams. In the Western Conference, you need to win with style. It sells tickets. It gets people out of warm weather into an arena. This isn’t necessary in New York. It takes the perfect personnel to run, and that isn’t there today, tomorrow – maybe never.


Walsh wooed D’Antoni on the premise that he wanted the coach to be himself, play his way and this comes as such a surprise to several executives and coaches in the league. No mandates for defensive assistants, no directives to become a more complete coach.


When these Knicks are unable to outscore people, it’ll be a layup line on the Garden’s visiting basket. There’s no faster way to competence, respectability, than creating resistance on the defensive end. At the least, the hiring of D’Antoni sends the Knicks on the longer path back to prominence.


“As soon as D’Antoni was available, Mark Jackson was in trouble,” an Eastern Conference executive said.

Jackson was Walsh’s original choice until D’Antoni felt unloved and unappreciated in Phoenix, until the Suns GM, Steve Kerr, wanted him to coach both ends of the floor. D’Antoni has gone running into Walsh’s waiting arms, where the two of them inherit a 23-victory team and a dysfunctional, delirious Madison Square Garden culture.


The Knicks needed a tough guy to restore credibility here, to get the most out of this flawed roster. The trouble is, D’Antoni is a coddler. He loathes confrontation. This doesn’t give him much chance to reach Eddy Curry and Zach Randolph, to get these Knicks to play hard and play together. They didn’t defend under Isiah, and they won’t under D’Antoni. He hated coaching Stephon Marbury for several weeks with the Suns in 2003, and he’ll hate it as long as it has be done in New York.


Nobody is going to win with these Knicks players. It’s Walsh’s job to turn over the roster and get D’Antoni his kind of guys, a point guard for his system. New York has the resources to make Marbury disappear with a contract buyout, but it still doesn’t give D’Antoni the man who made his system go, Steve Nash.

Pat Riley didn’t have Magic Johnson when he reemerged as Knicks coach, yet he was able to recreate himself in New York. He left behind his fast and furious Showtime Laker persona and incorporated a rugged, nasty defensive approach into his Knicks. He didn’t just adapt to the talent, but the city, the surroundings. Perhaps no coach had ever been so successfully transformative.


This isn’t so suggest that nothing short of smash-mouth basketball works in New York. Not at all. The Knicks have been the slowest NBA franchise to respond to the global change in the game. Scott Layden recruited Knicks out of his Utah roots and Thomas out of Chicago. D’Antoni offers a functional vision of passing and shooting and spacing, yes, but it’s as much of an extreme as the bullyboy style that Riley and Jeff Van Gundy’s used to reach the NBA Finals.


No one has mined the international game with as much success as the San Antonio Spurs, with R.C. Buford and Gregg Popovich discovering the best balance of blending Euro and South American skills with traditional American defensive tenacity. Steve Kerr had grown tired of watching the Spurs make stops and make smart choices (remember, it wasn’t Popovich’s players leaving the bench in the 2007 playoffs) to beat the Suns.


Everyone is ripping the Chicago Bulls for failing to go harder at D’Antoni, but as one GM who considers Chicago GM John Paxson and Kerr friends said, “To me, Pax is even an even more hardcore defensive guy. He loved the way (Scott) Skiles did it.” Paxson insists the Bulls wanted to make an offer on Saturday, but D’Antoni never gave him the chance. If Paxson ends up with Celtics assistant coach Tom Thibodeau, he’ll never regret it.

As for Donnie Walsh, he’s thrown himself into the line of fire. Most of D’Antoni’s peers watched an easy-going, self-deprecating man grow too full of himself, too sensitive to criticism. Perhaps this was a response to his belief that Suns management was undermining him, and maybe that goes away with a GM who hired him, who’s invested in his success.


Lately, the more his system would get questioned, the more irritated D’Antoni showed himself. It spoke to a sensitivity, an insecurity, that could get him torn apart in New York. He’s never been to the NBA Finals, but he always left you thinking that his system was beyond reproach. Popovich has four titles and acts less sure he has it figured out.


Nevertheless, D’Antoni has his guaranteed $24 million, his GM’s faith and the biggest stage in basketball. Eight years later, Isiah Thomas could no longer keep them apart. Truth be told, he finally got them together.


For Donnie Walsh and Mike D’Antoni, there’s just this as they start out together in the bright lights, big city: Be careful what you wish for.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-dantonijoinsknicks051108

I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
BRIGGS
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11/13/2010  1:39 AM
They sat on their arse and did nothing to bolster the frontline with a proven player. One player could possibly change differential. We had every chance to bring back earl barron who had played well in our system--maybe hes not Tim Duncan--but he proven he could produce from the 5. Right now we have no one--accept this Mosgov needs the D league just like randolph does. Randokph just needs to play 7-10 40 minute games to get his groove back--doesnt mean he will fit here but it could get his trade value back up. Mosgov needs time--back up is OK but he too would benefit from playing 40 minutes a night with a level just below this one.
RIP Crushalot😞
BRIGGS
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11/13/2010  2:15 AM
what a terrible deal we did with Houston. Its one of those fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me. why does NO other team in the NBA do deals like that????????????????????????????????

Im not fully understanding of the patameters--if we have a top 5 pick and houston has 20--they get pick? and then next year unrestricted to 1??????? all to give Jefferies away for one year?

I still dont get it???

RIP Crushalot😞
TMS
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11/13/2010  2:45 AM
hide yo kids, hide yo wife
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Knicksfan
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11/13/2010  3:54 AM
TMS wrote:hide yo kids, hide yo wife

and hide yourself from the knicks

Knicks_Fan
GodSaveTheKnicks
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11/13/2010  4:28 AM
Patience....running...thin.

I don't know if it's a poorly constructed team.

a poorly coached team

or poorly performing players.

Let's see where we are at all star break. breathe

Let's try to elevate the level of discourse in this byeetch. Please
Bonn1997
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11/13/2010  5:32 AM    LAST EDITED: 11/13/2010  5:35 AM
oohah wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:The owner is a problem but he is willing to spend money. The coach doesn't prepare his team for individual opponents and his peers have called him out for this. The coach plays an undersized line up and the philosophy behind it is that teams will have to adjust to the mismatches he creates. When things go wrong, it appears that he focuses on perfecting his offense so that those things don't happen again. There is no way that the Knicks can win anything with Amare playing as their only big. There is no way they can win with this guy. I cringe anytime a game is close in the fourth quarter and he has to call a play to put his team in a position to win or force an overtime. Tonight it turned into a jump ball. He is a mess and his philosophy is wrong for the NBA. He had the perfect point guard in Phoenix and close to the perfect roster but his ego got in the way. It is time to move on.

The buck stops with the owner after 10 years of losing.

oohah


Exactly; people are deluding themselves into thinking the problem is a lot simpler and much more fixable than it really is when they focus on Layden, then on Isiah, then on D'Antoni.
earthmansurfer
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11/13/2010  5:44 AM    LAST EDITED: 11/13/2010  5:45 AM
The team is a bit boring to watch. I mean because of their predictableness. We do have good ball movement often, but like other fans here, I'm sick of all the 3 point shooting. Though, I really think Turuiaf being out the last two games, was telling regarding the losses.

Also, the 4th quarter collapses is getting predictable. What happened last night?
The 4th quarter can be solved with coaching and coaching defense...

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift. Albert Einstein
itchetrigr
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11/13/2010  6:15 AM
GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:Patience....running...thin.

I don't know if it's a poorly constructed team.

a poorly coached team

or poorly performing players.

Let's see where we are at all star break. breathe

Im feeling the same way & I was on the "lets give this team some time to gel" team.

Im seeing the same players making the same mistakes while running the same plays.

SupremeCommander
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11/13/2010  8:19 AM
Give them some time. It's a young team with little experience playing together. It'll be time to panic if their **** isn't together after 20-25 games
DLeethal wrote: Lol Rick needs a safe space
Time to panic

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