martin wrote:you guys include Harrington and Hughes and Duhon and Jefferies as part of your eval? Those are the guys over the last 2 years who were getting heavy minutes that are not here any more.

martin i do because with each of the 3 rosters we've seen here over the last 3 years we've all been complaining about the same things - they have not changed from roster to roster, year to year. much too much reliance on the 3-ball, lack of movement in the offense, guys standing around the 3-point line, lack of plays being run for stretches, especially during key moments of games.

martin wrote:

eViL wrote:

nixluva wrote:You guys really think you know better than Mike how his offensive set is supposed to run? It doesn't matter if Fields was successful a few times on his cuts, it's the timing of his other forays to the basket that is in question. All Mike is saying is that the timing isn't right. If he's moving too soon, then really only Mike would know from watching film. None of you guys knows what the hell you're talking about from the perspective of the coach. This guy is the one teaching these guys to run the plays and he's pretty sure how they're supposed to work. I'm constantly amazed that so many think that this guy is lost when OTHER Coaches actually use the plays and things he's designed offensively.

All the Olympic players remarked at how great he was at coming up with plays. Just cuz we haven't seen it with these players doesn't mean that he's wrong. Perhaps the players aren't executing the plays properly. I know i've seen his offense run very well before. I think we need to give him time to get it worked out and if he fails then you can look to fire him, but after 8 games it seems too premature to be going in on him.

all i know is that i've been generally supportive of the guy but it's becoming painfully obvious that this team 1) lacks intensity, 2) is sloppy in its execution (especially in the 4th), 3) has terribly undisciplined shot selection. all 3 of those things fall on coach for me at this point. not saying he should get fired. just saying i'm losing patience.

after 7 games?

it's why it's so hard to rebuild in NY.

I dont consider signing Amare to a 100 million dollar deal rebuilding.

Can we say Miami is rebuilding? Would you say Chicago is rebuilding?

Knicks are trying to win now. You cant put the team in limbo for 2 years than try to rebuild by signed a guy to a max deal.

AnubisADL wrote:

martin wrote:

eViL wrote:

nixluva wrote:You guys really think you know better than Mike how his offensive set is supposed to run? It doesn't matter if Fields was successful a few times on his cuts, it's the timing of his other forays to the basket that is in question. All Mike is saying is that the timing isn't right. If he's moving too soon, then really only Mike would know from watching film. None of you guys knows what the hell you're talking about from the perspective of the coach. This guy is the one teaching these guys to run the plays and he's pretty sure how they're supposed to work. I'm constantly amazed that so many think that this guy is lost when OTHER Coaches actually use the plays and things he's designed offensively.

All the Olympic players remarked at how great he was at coming up with plays. Just cuz we haven't seen it with these players doesn't mean that he's wrong. Perhaps the players aren't executing the plays properly. I know i've seen his offense run very well before. I think we need to give him time to get it worked out and if he fails then you can look to fire him, but after 8 games it seems too premature to be going in on him.

all i know is that i've been generally supportive of the guy but it's becoming painfully obvious that this team 1) lacks intensity, 2) is sloppy in its execution (especially in the 4th), 3) has terribly undisciplined shot selection. all 3 of those things fall on coach for me at this point. not saying he should get fired. just saying i'm losing patience.

after 7 games?

it's why it's so hard to rebuild in NY.

I dont consider signing Amare to a 100 million dollar deal rebuilding.

Can we say Miami is rebuilding? Would you say Chicago is rebuilding?

Knicks are trying to win now. You cant put the team in limbo for 2 years than try to rebuild by signed a guy to a max deal.

when you add 10 new guys to the roster, what do you call that?

martin wrote:

Marv wrote:

martin wrote:you guys include Harrington and Hughes and Duhon and Jefferies as part of your eval? Those are the guys over the last 2 years who were getting heavy minutes that are not here any more.

martin i do because with each of the 3 rosters we've seen here over the last 3 years we've all been complaining about the same things - they have not changed from roster to roster, year to year. much too much reliance on the 3-ball, lack of movement in the offense, guys standing around the 3-point line, lack of plays being run for stretches, especially during key moments of games.

Knicks averaged 30 wins the past 2 seasons. And each year they had an upheaval in player personnel.

What you are implying is that in light of the above, you expected a coach to implement and discipline and incorporate a system and perhaps be a lot better than their record indicated? Somewhere in the 35-40 range?

i'm not sure i understand what you are saying.

to be clear: i can no longer look at the roster and lay blame on the players for losses when it is obvious there are strategic shortcomings causing us to struggle.

the one thing all 3 of the knicks teams that d'antoni coached have in common is shooting way more 3's than the league average. this is making us the easiest team in the league to defend. and when we have brutal shooting performances we are setting our opponents up with easy transition baskets off of our long rebounds.

why can't the players distinguish between good 3's and bad 3's? are they all just dumb? have we not had one good, smart player on the team since d'antoni has been here?

eViL wrote:

martin wrote:

Marv wrote:

martin wrote:you guys include Harrington and Hughes and Duhon and Jefferies as part of your eval? Those are the guys over the last 2 years who were getting heavy minutes that are not here any more.

martin i do because with each of the 3 rosters we've seen here over the last 3 years we've all been complaining about the same things - they have not changed from roster to roster, year to year. much too much reliance on the 3-ball, lack of movement in the offense, guys standing around the 3-point line, lack of plays being run for stretches, especially during key moments of games.

Knicks averaged 30 wins the past 2 seasons. And each year they had an upheaval in player personnel.

What you are implying is that in light of the above, you expected a coach to implement and discipline and incorporate a system and perhaps be a lot better than their record indicated? Somewhere in the 35-40 range?

i'm not sure i understand what you are saying.

to be clear: i can no longer look at the roster and lay blame on the players for losses when it is obvious there are strategic shortcomings causing us to struggle.

the one thing all 3 of the knicks teams that d'antoni coached have in common is shooting way more 3's than the league average. this is making us the easiest team in the league to defend. and when we have brutal shooting performances we are setting our opponents up with easy transition baskets off of our long rebounds.

why can't the players distinguish between good 3's and bad 3's? are they all just dumb? have we not had one good, smart player on the team since d'antoni has been here?

You guys keep complaining about more threes than the league average? And I don't get it. What exactly were you expecting from MDA? Defensive rebounding? He has a system and is coaching the team accordingly, and yes in his system you end up taking more threes than the other teams. That is NOT going to change. He is being true to what he believes in and you want to make that out to be a bad thing. Blame Walsh for bringing him here if you don't like 3 point shooting, don't blame him for doing what he got hired to do, which is coach the team according to his system.

crzymdups wrote:the fact that there are 10 new players, but we are playing the same way and losing the same way is what is really frustrating. makes you think it must be the coaching.

felton has played very well - but not really adept at the pick and roll. d'antoni's solution? run more pick and rolls.

landry fields has been a bright spot - efficient and smart plays and moves without the ball. d'antoni's solution? get out of amare's way, kid. stay out of his sight lines and pop some threes if we need some spacing.

An NBA point guard is unable to run the PnR and he has played very well? How do you work that out agin?

martin wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:

martin wrote:

eViL wrote:

nixluva wrote:You guys really think you know better than Mike how his offensive set is supposed to run? It doesn't matter if Fields was successful a few times on his cuts, it's the timing of his other forays to the basket that is in question. All Mike is saying is that the timing isn't right. If he's moving too soon, then really only Mike would know from watching film. None of you guys knows what the hell you're talking about from the perspective of the coach. This guy is the one teaching these guys to run the plays and he's pretty sure how they're supposed to work. I'm constantly amazed that so many think that this guy is lost when OTHER Coaches actually use the plays and things he's designed offensively.

All the Olympic players remarked at how great he was at coming up with plays. Just cuz we haven't seen it with these players doesn't mean that he's wrong. Perhaps the players aren't executing the plays properly. I know i've seen his offense run very well before. I think we need to give him time to get it worked out and if he fails then you can look to fire him, but after 8 games it seems too premature to be going in on him.

all i know is that i've been generally supportive of the guy but it's becoming painfully obvious that this team 1) lacks intensity, 2) is sloppy in its execution (especially in the 4th), 3) has terribly undisciplined shot selection. all 3 of those things fall on coach for me at this point. not saying he should get fired. just saying i'm losing patience.

after 7 games?

it's why it's so hard to rebuild in NY.

I dont consider signing Amare to a 100 million dollar deal rebuilding.

Can we say Miami is rebuilding? Would you say Chicago is rebuilding?

Knicks are trying to win now. You cant put the team in limbo for 2 years than try to rebuild by signed a guy to a max deal.

when you add 10 new guys to the roster, what do you call that?

Cool, Miami and Chicago are rebuilding too. Chicago added 8 new guys. Miami added 13 new guys.

Give them ALL time.

Source: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=transactions-10-11

martin wrote:

all of those teams have struggled or under performed. so it makes sense that when you have a ton of new people - players or coaching - that it takes time?

It does, but I'm more concerned with why we have struggled more than I am about our record so far. You are right however that it is much too soon to make a move, I'd be against it at this point.

scoshin wrote:

martin wrote:Here's my last thoughts on the 3 point shooting and what I have been taking into consideration when I think about the Knicks and how much they shoot.

Up until this year, Douglas and Gallo shoot nearly 40% from 3 point land. As a coach, do you tell your guys to shoot, not shoot, or take what's given to you? Probably some place in between, and yet there will be nights when both threw up donuts. Chandler is a bad 3point shooter and a bad decision maker (my opinion is that there is a 99% chance he will be gone by next season). As a coach, how much leeway to you give each of them? Also consider how much experience each has and where they are in their collective careers.

And the bad shooting is compounded with losses: After Chi and Wash games, general feeling was that this team was a world beater or at least better than perhaps a final record of .500; now, after a few loses, not so much and blame is tossed around.

It's the same with Wade and LeBron, 2 of the premiere players in the league, and I didn't have to dig very far to come up with an example. Both are incredibly bad 3point shooter and yet last night they both put up 5 EACH from downtown and hit ZERO and lost. Each of them must have had bad coaches who never told them to NOT shoot outside shots, especially when they are not falling, and both of those guys have incredible skill at going strong to the rim so there is really no excuse, and yet it happens.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=301111014

There is a give and take and ebb and flow to a season. 8 games in? Not sure I want to draw conclusions. After 20 I start to see what's going on and certainly by 40 we can start to draw conclusions.

If you want to pull in the last 2 years to make an argument, why not also include in the last 4 with PHO to see how MDA coached, wouldn't that give us a clearer picture?

Shooting when open is a sound philosophy, but the 3-pt shot by its nature is a low-percentage shot. There are times in a ball game where you absolutely need a bucket to either end a run, or close a lead. For example, the other night, when there was 1 min 30 left, and we were down by 3, we wasted two possessions hoisting up 3-pt shots. That's just dumb play, but because they were open, it's A-OK by D'Antoni. When the team really needs a bucket, like in a situation like that, we should always try to work for the highest percentage shot, or try to get to the line.

there is no doubt in my mind that our players need to know when to shoot and when not to shoot.

Is MDA giving you hand signals as to when a shot was OK or not? I haven't been able to detect when he thought it was good or not.