knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:Felton has played very poorly in the half court and I agree 100% with the guys who are killing him on the P&R. He has however looked amazing running the break, which has been huge in our 3 wins and the prior losses we played well in.

He's not giving the roller a step, he rolls with the roller (sounds funny but it's true) so there for he either has to make a perfect pass, or take the shot,(which he does most of the time) he rather take the shot then risk turning it over, but when the spacing his horrible, the timing is way off, and the ally oops look forced, you just continue to shoot the firts avaible shot (which is usually a 3) and live with it.

The bulls main focus was to stop the 3 ball, and couldn't figure it out when the time came..there's no defense for good spacing and ball movement...NONE..

I thought amare and felton where in the gym since august...

They need to send Felton to a PnR clinic and just drill on that. THey need to make him watch film of himself and stop to point out when his head is down, when he should be delivering the pass, how to know if it should be a bounce pass or go over the top etc. He seems to have the most rudimentary PnR skills. He's good pushing and driving, but that PnR is ugly.

nixluva wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

martin wrote:

Paladin55 wrote:I know that in football a good running game can set up your passing game, yet you also have teams where the passing game sets up your running game.

I would hope that efficient 3 pt shooting can set up our P&R game, and also open up the middle for players who like to slash.

Bip was right,

Bip was right is redundant

Well you're just going to have to accept it! Really tho that is what I see as well. I can't stand watching all the missed easy opportunities. it comes down to this. As bad as Duhon was, he certainly could do one thing well and that's run PnR. I never dreamed it would be this hard for Felton to get our players the ball in PnR. It's just such an easy play, but I guess I underestimate the level of timing, instinct and court vision it takes. This offense is designed to create highly efficient scoring. I know everyone thinks that its a wild chucking offense, but it's completely wrong to assume that. Our players just haven't locked down how to play this style yet.

Sometimes we do it right, but lately the timing has been off and the players have gotten lazy and taking the 3 is the lazy way out. If you watch Amar'e, Moz, Fields & Turiaf, they actually move the best in terms of attacking the basket and slipping in on the PnR. The PG's however aren't delivering the ball correctly and the other players are being lazy. Gallo, Will, Walker etc. tend to settle for jumpers when they could pass the ball for a better shot. Also this team has to be leading the league in committing charges. That's showing a lack of discipline. When you drive you should always anticipate a defensive reaction and when that defender slides you should be ready to pull up and either take the midrange shot or pass the ball to an open teammate that the defender just left. They haven't been doing that enough.

It's not an easy thing to learn. There are so many factors
1.) The screener has to set a solid screen on the defender and force the scrambling switch
2.) The screener and the dribbler need to be on the same page(telepathically) on when the screener is going to slip the pick, set the pick, or pop out on the pick. Both have to adjust to each other.
3.) The New PG has to learn how his new teammates like to roll off the pick.
4.) The dribbler needs to figure out who can catch the low/high/bullet pass and who cannot.
5.) The screener needs to find the open spot on the floor. If the lane is clogged, he must pop or find another spot
6.) The dribbler needs to know when it's a good idea to ignore the roll man, even if he appears open
7.) The dribbler and screener need to know when to abandon the roll and when to immediately try to run it again. In Phoenix you would see Nash and Amare just keep setting the same screen and roll on the same play until it worked.
8.) Once the screener rolls the dribbler must time the pass perfectly, without it getting deflected.
9.) The screener most roll to the spot at the right time
10.) The dribbler must learn his teammates abilities. With some guys you can just throw it up in the air on the screen and they will go get it. I think Mosgoz is like this, but the team hasn't figured it out. Felton keeps feeding him low and forcing him to make some kind of move instead of throwing it up there to him.
10.) The dribbler needs to know when to fire a pass, when to shoot, when to set up for the switched mismatch, when to alley ooop....

There are so many more factors. Guys only figure it out through repetition. There were two plays last night that come to mind. One was where Amare rolled and Felton through a perfect alley-oop. Unfortunately the timing wasn't there. Amare was open for the opp but becuase Felton has never thrown one off the screen he probably was not expecting it. He ended up catching it almost flat footed. The same thing happened with Mozgov. Mosgov laid it in, butyou could see the timing was off. I think it will get better although frustrating right now.

Bippity10 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

martin wrote:

Paladin55 wrote:I know that in football a good running game can set up your passing game, yet you also have teams where the passing game sets up your running game.

I would hope that efficient 3 pt shooting can set up our P&R game, and also open up the middle for players who like to slash.

Bip was right,

Bip was right is redundant

Well you're just going to have to accept it! Really tho that is what I see as well. I can't stand watching all the missed easy opportunities. it comes down to this. As bad as Duhon was, he certainly could do one thing well and that's run PnR. I never dreamed it would be this hard for Felton to get our players the ball in PnR. It's just such an easy play, but I guess I underestimate the level of timing, instinct and court vision it takes. This offense is designed to create highly efficient scoring. I know everyone thinks that its a wild chucking offense, but it's completely wrong to assume that. Our players just haven't locked down how to play this style yet.

Sometimes we do it right, but lately the timing has been off and the players have gotten lazy and taking the 3 is the lazy way out. If you watch Amar'e, Moz, Fields & Turiaf, they actually move the best in terms of attacking the basket and slipping in on the PnR. The PG's however aren't delivering the ball correctly and the other players are being lazy. Gallo, Will, Walker etc. tend to settle for jumpers when they could pass the ball for a better shot. Also this team has to be leading the league in committing charges. That's showing a lack of discipline. When you drive you should always anticipate a defensive reaction and when that defender slides you should be ready to pull up and either take the midrange shot or pass the ball to an open teammate that the defender just left. They haven't been doing that enough.

It's not an easy thing to learn. There are so many factors
1.) The screener has to set a solid screen on the defender and force the scrambling switch
2.) The screener and the dribbler need to be on the same page(telepathically) on when the screener is going to slip the pick, set the pick, or pop out on the pick. Both have to adjust to each other.
3.) The New PG has to learn how his new teammates like to roll off the pick.
4.) The dribbler needs to figure out who can catch the low/high/bullet pass and who cannot.
5.) The screener needs to find the open spot on the floor. If the lane is clogged, he must pop or find another spot
6.) The dribbler needs to know when it's a good idea to ignore the roll man, even if he appears open
7.) The dribbler and screener need to know when to abandon the roll and when to immediately try to run it again. In Phoenix you would see Nash and Amare just keep setting the same screen and roll on the same play until it worked.
8.) Once the screener rolls the dribbler must time the pass perfectly, without it getting deflected.
9.) The screener most roll to the spot at the right time
10.) The dribbler must learn his teammates abilities. With some guys you can just throw it up in the air on the screen and they will go get it. I think Mosgoz is like this, but the team hasn't figured it out. Felton keeps feeding him low and forcing him to make some kind of move instead of throwing it up there to him.
10.) The dribbler needs to know when to fire a pass, when to shoot, when to set up for the switched mismatch, when to alley ooop....

There are so many more factors. Guys only figure it out through repetition. There were two plays last night that come to mind. One was where Amare rolled and Felton through a perfect alley-oop. Unfortunately the timing wasn't there. Amare was open for the opp but becuase Felton has never thrown one off the screen he probably was not expecting it. He ended up catching it almost flat footed. The same thing happened with Mozgov. Mosgov laid it in, butyou could see the timing was off. I think it will get better although frustrating right now.

so what you are saying is that it's fault, right?

I can't really pinpoint what his problem is though. My best guess is that, like I said, he's just giving up the ball too early to Amare on the roll, and Amare's not in a good position to get to the basket without drawing a charge or a quick double team. Felton has to establish himself as a threat on the PnR. Which he has done, but for whatever reason...when Felton drives to the hoop, he's no longer looking to pass -- not even to kickout to a 3-pt shooter. It's like he suddenly turns on a scoring mentality when he makes an affirmative decision to drive to the basket, and only seeks the layup.

Vmart wrote:What a lost art a turn around jumper from the post is. What the hell happened to the turn around jumper.

Yup...and what about using the bloody backboard for a midrange bank shot? John Wooden's teams lived off that kind of shot. Hire Kevin McHale during the offseason one year to work with our bigs.

knicks1248 wrote:Lets face it guys, we have MDA as a head coach, if we don't hit 3's consistanly were not winning. In our 3 wins, we shot the 3 ball extremely well, in our 4 loses, we shot it terrible.

I thought with Amare, and all the bigs we have, it would be PnR all day, but appearently thats looking more and more like a fantasy. I personally don't think Mike prepares his team enough, doesn't pay attention to the little things, and guy's continue to fall for the same moves over and over.

It's just a matter of time before the "fire mike chants start" especially if we get blown out like this at home. Frankly....I'm running out of excuses for MDA...

u live by the 3, & you will die by the 3... this is why people get frustrated w/the way this team plays under MDA, they seem to settle way too much for early 3 pointers instead of working the ball inside & having guys move w/o the ball on back cuts, running off screens & running the penetrate & dish... MDA places way too much emphasis on the 3 ball for my liking.

But there are several times in Knick games where we REALLY need a bucket to either stop an opponent's run or just to end the bleeding, and to go for a low-percentage shot in those situations (and sometimes on back to back possessions) is just downright retarded basketball.

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:Its the players. They have to learn how to recognize what is a good shot and what isn't. There is simply no reason they are taking so many 3's. That's just lazy BB. If it comes after great ball movement that's different, but our guys are forcing up shots with a defender or in a situation that calls for a higher % shot. Still the thing is that this team shouldn't be that bad shooting period.

What has it been the last two years. When is it not the players?

It is the players, and the PG..take one good look at the stats, and it tells the story..

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/team/_/stat/offense-per-game/sort/threePointFieldGoalPct

CrushAlot wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:Its the players. They have to learn how to recognize what is a good shot and what isn't. There is simply no reason they are taking so many 3's. That's just lazy BB. If it comes after great ball movement that's different, but our guys are forcing up shots with a defender or in a situation that calls for a higher % shot. Still the thing is that this team shouldn't be that bad shooting period.

What has it been the last two years. When is it not the players?

It is the players, and the PG..take one good look at the stats, and it tells the story..

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/team/_/stat/offense-per-game/sort/threePointFieldGoalPct

What players does this coach need to win at a rate higher than 37%? He has had a 171 game tenure in NY.

I know we needed to get defensively better, but we should have put more emphasis on aquring Shannon brown, steve blake, rudy fernadez, instead of offering them BS contracts. but we aquire, AZ(who knows when he'll be ready) AR(this dude is a project) felton (who despite his abilties, can't run a PnR) Mason (12th man on a losing team)...