Childs2Dudley wrote:

nixluva wrote:THIS ISN'T ABOUT MORAL VICTORIES! Man we need to be able to see beyond the W/L column at this point. Here are some things that I feel go unnoticed. For one thing, this idea that Mike has about playing D without committing needless fouls has a great side benefit. The team learns how to defend well while not sending teams to the line so much. It shows up in more fastbreaks and clean blocked shots. This team is doing well in the block dept. We lead the league in Blocks which I can't remember ever doing that at any point before.

Overall the rotation has worked well and could be better if not for Gallo's slump. The tweaks needed are few and very obvious. In the past we had so many issues it was impossible to narrow a solution down. Also despite the fear this team is at least working to improve the rebounding. We're actually 6th in rebounding.

Now I know that this an extremely small sample size and not much can be made conclusive, but the losses aren't telling the whole story. losing hard fought games to 2 of the best teams in the league that have been together for a few years now, is not a bad sign. Also of note is that this team will get more reinforcements soon!

No we don't. It's about wins and losses now.

I'm old and likely getting senile..so I beg your patience. Was it you or CrushALot that told me TD would not see the floor this year because Mason Jr was definitely going to take his minutes?

My point is that this is a long season and I fully expect the team to win, but there's no way I thought they'd be at a peak level of execution at this point, so I can understand the losses. They're gonna have some growing pains and miscues early, but I expect them to work out the kinks and start to win. Boston/Portland on back to back nights to start your season is a tough call but they were in both games until the very end., which shows me something about the team. YOu two want to refuse to acknowledge that fine, but I see some good signs from how hard the team is playing despite not clicking on all cylinders.

What i'm talking about is COMMON FREAKING SENSE! Understanding the phase this team is at and the point of the season we're in. It's just the beginning and to soon to expect perfection from a totally new group. It sucked to lose those games, but i'm very pleased with the overall effort and the improvements i've seen so far. This team has a LOOONG way to go, but still it was hard for 2 top teams to come out with a win against us. SO go ahead and ignore that, but some of us can see the good in the team even if some want to paint it as meaningless.

tj23 wrote:This isn't a bad start. The defense has been good at times, and horrible at others. We are way too inconsistent right now.
Amare is turning the ball over waay too much even though he's putting up some numbers. He nees to be THE go to guy down the stretch, in the clutch, the last play, etc. What happened to the STAT we saw in preseason?

Chandler is playing good, but shot selection needs to improve. He's not going to consistently score on tip ins and alley oops.

This team has too many bad possessions on offense. They aren't shooting good enough outside to keep jacking up threes. They have to be more selective. The pick and roll needs to be much more effective unless Amare can be more effective in isos. Right now they have no identity.

Yea this team isn't even close to a smooth running group yet. The reason they were even in these games is hustle and Defense. That to me is a good sign tho, cuz I think the chemistry will get better and they'll correct some of the dumb mistakes. But avg'ing 8 blocks so far shows the amount of resistance this team is putting up. The trick is will they defend just as hard once the offense improves?

TMS wrote:

nixluva wrote:TMS & Childs, 3 games into the season you have to be somewhat reasonable about the way this new team is playing and how they lost and who they lost to. You can't just say oh they lost so that's it. This isn't the time for a B&W analysis of the team. No way in the world did I think the team would look this sharp this early. The things they need to do in order to closeout wins are much easier to fix than I anticipated for this point in the season. In fact i'm more optimistic about the teams outlook this year than I was during preseason. If effort isn't going to be an issue, then I feel that the shooting and chemistry will come with time, but we had to see defensive effort and fight out of this team and for 3 games that's what we saw.

My point is that this is a long season and I fully expect the team to win, but there's no way I thought they'd be at a peak level of execution at this point, so I can understand the losses. They're gonna have some growing pains and miscues early, but I expect them to work out the kinks and start to win. Boston/Portland on back to back nights to start your season is a tough call but they were in both games until the very end., which shows me something about the team. YOu two want to refuse to acknowledge that fine, but I see some good signs from how hard the team is playing despite not clicking on all cylinders.

What i'm talking about is COMMON FREAKING SENSE! Understanding the phase this team is at and the point of the season we're in. It's just the beginning and to soon to expect perfection from a totally new group. It sucked to lose those games, but i'm very pleased with the overall effort and the improvements i've seen so far. This team has a LOOONG way to go, but still it was hard for 2 top teams to come out with a win against us. SO go ahead and ignore that, but some of us can see the good in the team even if some want to paint it as meaningless.

i've been listening to you say the same stuff about how we're on the cusp of a brighter horizon for the past 5 years... your motivational speeches don't inspire me anymore.

What i've seen is a team that has given fairly consistent effort on D. Despite not being a strong rebounding team, they are 6th in the league so far. The defense has been pretty good so far and we lead the league in Blocks. The games have all been hard fought despite one of our starters not doing anything. Be honest could we have played 2 tougher teams back to back to start the season?

This team should be a playoff team and be north of .500. However, at this point in the season and with a schedule that is clearly not soft, the expectations need to be made relative to all of the facts. If you choose to ignore those factors and only look at the W/L columns go ahead. I KNOW that you lack the ability to accept these nuances, so go ahead and see only in B&W. No need for you to ever utter an observation that expresses anything outside of W/L's for the rest of the year. That is since you're laying the ground rules for any future comments you wish to make. Your comments should only be "They Won" or "They lost". No need to get into how the team played and if they're improving, since as you state nothing else is relevant.

TMS wrote:

nixluva wrote:losing hard fought games to 2 of the best teams in the league that have been together for a few years now, is not a bad sign. Also of note is that this team will get more reinforcements soon!

the moral victories mantra

Losing of any type is a bad sign, so is panicking after three games. Sometimes you just have to let it play out and see what the team really is capable of. We have two major differences from last year: Defense and a closer (If you can call Amar'e that) -- to me the bet improvement would be us consistently beating out bad teams which we haven't done in years.

nixluva wrote:

TMS wrote:

nixluva wrote:TMS & Childs, 3 games into the season you have to be somewhat reasonable about the way this new team is playing and how they lost and who they lost to. You can't just say oh they lost so that's it. This isn't the time for a B&W analysis of the team. No way in the world did I think the team would look this sharp this early. The things they need to do in order to closeout wins are much easier to fix than I anticipated for this point in the season. In fact i'm more optimistic about the teams outlook this year than I was during preseason. If effort isn't going to be an issue, then I feel that the shooting and chemistry will come with time, but we had to see defensive effort and fight out of this team and for 3 games that's what we saw.

My point is that this is a long season and I fully expect the team to win, but there's no way I thought they'd be at a peak level of execution at this point, so I can understand the losses. They're gonna have some growing pains and miscues early, but I expect them to work out the kinks and start to win. Boston/Portland on back to back nights to start your season is a tough call but they were in both games until the very end., which shows me something about the team. YOu two want to refuse to acknowledge that fine, but I see some good signs from how hard the team is playing despite not clicking on all cylinders.

What i'm talking about is COMMON FREAKING SENSE! Understanding the phase this team is at and the point of the season we're in. It's just the beginning and to soon to expect perfection from a totally new group. It sucked to lose those games, but i'm very pleased with the overall effort and the improvements i've seen so far. This team has a LOOONG way to go, but still it was hard for 2 top teams to come out with a win against us. SO go ahead and ignore that, but some of us can see the good in the team even if some want to paint it as meaningless.

i've been listening to you say the same stuff about how we're on the cusp of a brighter horizon for the past 5 years... your motivational speeches don't inspire me anymore.

How about for a change you put things in context, which you clearly don't seem to have the capacity to do! 3 GAMES IN DUDE! For one thing, this is a NEW TEAM and bringing up the past isn't relevant. The expectations for this group are different from last years team. When in the past I was positive, there was a certain level of play that we were expecting, it was based on the expectations for that team, that year. To feel that the team was on the cusp of playing better is relative to the potential the team has to begin with. The expectations on the Heat are different than those on the Knicks. The expectation for the Knicks of past years versus the current team etc. So now we're talking ONLY about this years team OK? Further, i'm not trying to motivate you with my words. I'm merely pointing out the facts of this current teams situation. New Team, Early in the season and tough teams! It's not a bad sign that this team lost these games.

What i've seen is a team that has given fairly consistent effort on D. Despite not being a strong rebounding team, they are 6th in the league so far. The defense has been pretty good so far and we lead the league in Blocks. The games have all been hard fought despite one of our starters not doing anything. Be honest could we have played 2 tougher teams back to back to start the season?

This team should be a playoff team and be north of .500. However, at this point in the season and with a schedule that is clearly not soft, the expectations need to be made relative to all of the facts. If you choose to ignore those factors and only look at the W/L columns go ahead. I KNOW that you lack the ability to accept these nuances, so go ahead and see only in B&W. No need for you to ever utter an observation that expresses anything outside of W/L's for the rest of the year. That is since you're laying the ground rules for any future comments you wish to make. Your comments should only be "They Won" or "They lost". No need to get into how the team played and if they're improving, since as you state nothing else is relevant.

seems to me you're implying i'm panicking on the season after 4 games just because i don't share in your eternal blind optimism that our team is headed for brighter shores, technicolor rainbows & magical unicorns... i'm actually not... every post i've made this season has focused on tempering expectations for this team... i've said this team will go through its ups & downs all year long just like any average .500 type team is going to do... you consistently don't read my posts & just choose to cast your idiotic assumptions about my intentions... i've come to expect this from you... but you can take your "lack the ability to accept nuances" stuff & preaching to me about how i need to post from here on out & stick it up your keester... i'll post what i want to post about, if you don't wanna read it then don't read it.

Knixkik wrote:Is we would be 3-0 if we had that second star/scorer/closer on this team.

We don't need a second 'star'. What we need is for the Team to play Better. Rotate the ball on offense when the shot isn't there. Felton needs to do a better job breaking down defenses. Amare needs to trust his teammates better and not force things. Gallinari needs to get his brain back.

We lost the past two games because our offense broke down and we relied on old, bad habits. Having a second scorer wouldn't necessarily help. We might have gotten lucky if that 2nd player is a good bad shot scorer. But that is not a long term, consistent way to get wins. See how real teams like the Celtics, Jazz, Spurs, or Lakers play. They have great players for sure, but see how they execute down the stretch. They are not jamming the ball inside or forcing bad shots at the end of games.

To me the issue is the team has not figured out how to play as a team yet on offense. Once they figure this out and they build trust with one another, we'll win games like these.

TMS wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TMS wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TMS wrote:

nixluva wrote:TMS & Childs, 3 games into the season you have to be somewhat reasonable about the way this new team is playing and how they lost and who they lost to. You can't just say oh they lost so that's it. This isn't the time for a B&W analysis of the team. No way in the world did I think the team would look this sharp this early. The things they need to do in order to closeout wins are much easier to fix than I anticipated for this point in the season. In fact i'm more optimistic about the teams outlook this year than I was during preseason. If effort isn't going to be an issue, then I feel that the shooting and chemistry will come with time, but we had to see defensive effort and fight out of this team and for 3 games that's what we saw.

My point is that this is a long season and I fully expect the team to win, but there's no way I thought they'd be at a peak level of execution at this point, so I can understand the losses. They're gonna have some growing pains and miscues early, but I expect them to work out the kinks and start to win. Boston/Portland on back to back nights to start your season is a tough call but they were in both games until the very end., which shows me something about the team. YOu two want to refuse to acknowledge that fine, but I see some good signs from how hard the team is playing despite not clicking on all cylinders.

What i'm talking about is COMMON FREAKING SENSE! Understanding the phase this team is at and the point of the season we're in. It's just the beginning and to soon to expect perfection from a totally new group. It sucked to lose those games, but i'm very pleased with the overall effort and the improvements i've seen so far. This team has a LOOONG way to go, but still it was hard for 2 top teams to come out with a win against us. SO go ahead and ignore that, but some of us can see the good in the team even if some want to paint it as meaningless.

i've been listening to you say the same stuff about how we're on the cusp of a brighter horizon for the past 5 years... your motivational speeches don't inspire me anymore.

How about for a change you put things in context, which you clearly don't seem to have the capacity to do! 3 GAMES IN DUDE! For one thing, this is a NEW TEAM and bringing up the past isn't relevant. The expectations for this group are different from last years team. When in the past I was positive, there was a certain level of play that we were expecting, it was based on the expectations for that team, that year. To feel that the team was on the cusp of playing better is relative to the potential the team has to begin with. The expectations on the Heat are different than those on the Knicks. The expectation for the Knicks of past years versus the current team etc. So now we're talking ONLY about this years team OK? Further, i'm not trying to motivate you with my words. I'm merely pointing out the facts of this current teams situation. New Team, Early in the season and tough teams! It's not a bad sign that this team lost these games.

What i've seen is a team that has given fairly consistent effort on D. Despite not being a strong rebounding team, they are 6th in the league so far. The defense has been pretty good so far and we lead the league in Blocks. The games have all been hard fought despite one of our starters not doing anything. Be honest could we have played 2 tougher teams back to back to start the season?

This team should be a playoff team and be north of .500. However, at this point in the season and with a schedule that is clearly not soft, the expectations need to be made relative to all of the facts. If you choose to ignore those factors and only look at the W/L columns go ahead. I KNOW that you lack the ability to accept these nuances, so go ahead and see only in B&W. No need for you to ever utter an observation that expresses anything outside of W/L's for the rest of the year. That is since you're laying the ground rules for any future comments you wish to make. Your comments should only be "They Won" or "They lost". No need to get into how the team played and if they're improving, since as you state nothing else is relevant.

seems to me you're implying i'm panicking on the season after 4 games just because i don't share in your eternal blind optimism that our team is headed for brighter shores, technicolor rainbows & magical unicorns... i'm actually not... every post i've made this season has focused on tempering expectations for this team... i've said this team will go through its ups & downs all year long just like any average .500 type team is going to do... you consistently don't read my posts & just choose to cast your idiotic assumptions about my intentions... i've come to expect this from you... but you can take your "lack the ability to accept nuances" stuff & preaching to me about how i need to post from here on out & stick it up your keester... i'll post what i want to post about, if you don't wanna read it then don't read it.

I'm not saying you're panicking. I'm saying that you're not using sound reason in how you view the team and it's progress at this early junture. You and some others are being negative for the sake of being negative. This is not the time to join the chorus of "Same old Knicks", just cuz they lost 2 tough games. You chimed in and agreed with others that there should be no moral victories at this point, to which I say you're wrong. It's so early in the season and few would assume that the team is gonna be at it's strongest this soon. Yet we've seen the team put up a great effort in each game, against top teams that have the edge of having been together for a bit. Quite frankly those teams are better than we are right now.

We came into this season without that kind of chemistry and are trying to establish an identity and rotation. So at this point there are some reasons to view the team positively even after a loss. What i'm saying is that the early indicators are good because we're seeing EFFORT and TOUGHNESS, despite not yet seeing great execution or chemistry. The idea is that once they've played together for a while it's possible that they'll be able to win more of these types of games instead of losing them for those same reasons. Chemistry isn't automatic. You can play with effort and hustle at any time, but for a team to have great intuitive chemistry takes time. Unless you have overwhelming individual talent.

let me get this straight... saying i expect a .500 record out of this team & that no one should get overly excited OR down on this team after a 4-5 game winning or losing streak & that there are no such things as moral victories in games you lose is what you categorize as being negative for the sake of being negative... that's ridiculous.

i could care less if i see EFFORT & TOUGHNESS if that EFFORT & TOUGHNESS doesn't equate to any W's... i'd rather see TALENT that nets us some W's going forward... i'd also rather see a team that plays like a well coached team should play... that falls on everyone of the players & on the coaches & our GM... i can't sit & watch this team lose games & put on the blinders & convince myself that things are fine & dandy even though we're losing like you can, sorry.

like i've been saying & which you obviously have not read or chosen to ignore, i think this team will go through its ups & downs all year & it has to be expected until the roster is upgraded w/better talent... this is not negativity, it's reality.

You were being negative and after 3 games 2 of which against tough teams, you have to use some sense of reason as to expectations. You are now trying to qualify your very brief original statements which I responded to and they didn't include all of these points you're now bringing up. My response to you was not to you making a rational statement about expecting .500 or warning about getting overly excited by short win streaks. You took a swipe at me in reference to moral victories and I wasn't really talking about moral victories. I was pointing out that this team is on the right track based on the defensive effort and fight they've shown, which we haven't seen from this team in recent years. That same effort and toughness will eventually lead to more wins this year as they develop chemistry. If they won games simply by outscoring teams but played horrible D, i'd be more concerned. Seeing defensive effort like this is a good sign at this stage of the season.

I just don't think it's reasonable to expect that chemistry to develop in the 1st 3 games. We lost to 2 tough teams partly due to not being at the level of cohesiveness we need to have in order to beat top teams. I think it's reasonable to assume that the team will get better chemistry wise as we move along.