martin wrote:

TMS wrote:

nixluva wrote:Man picks and prospects are not guarantees. People need to just get off of the this insistence that there's some guarantee that any pick will live up to his perceived potential or never exceed the predictions analysts place on them ie Landry Fields. Hill was picked for his talent, but once they had him they learned some things that alarmed them and decided he wasn't right for them. It's the same reason we didn't take Jennings. They thought they saw some things in his character that they didn't like. It turns out that he would've been the better risk, but you can't always know those things and hindsight is always 20/20.

All the time guys fail to live up to predictions or exceed them. This is why I was arguing that it was a good idea to trade those assets which are not sure things for the opportunity to sign players with a given track record. You KNOW what you're getting. Now we also took on some projects like AR & Timo, so we still managed to get the "high potential" prospects anyway. I think the right decisions were made and tho nothing is perfect it's worked out very well for this franchise to be heading in the right direction.

how do you know what you're getting when the only thing you're trading for is cap space? please explain that one... trading future assets for star PLAYERS is a no brainer... no one is contesting this... trading future assets for nothing but cap space to try & take a gamble on a star player signing here with no guarantees in place that he will was a stupid idea from the very beginning.

Except when you do actually score the big banana, cause that was exactly the strategy of Miami and they won big time. And it's similar to what the Lakers did to secure Shaq. It's a gamble that did not pay off for the Knicks.

Let's put it into terms that are perhaps more Alba-like. If a single Jessica Alba let everyone know she was gonna date one dude who came to this specific club on a specific night and ride him like a cowboy until the sun came up and all you had to do was pay the cover to the club, and you are 1 of 7 guys who gets invited (team with cap space), what's your limit on how much you would pay/gamble?

$10? $50? $100? $5000? Nothing at all cause there is no guarantee of getting laid?

It's an outlandish scenario no doubt, but I think Donnie truly believed that he HAD to have cap space to be in the game. IE, no cover charge, no play.

Generally this is not just a multiple choice question, cause there was the added knowledge that the Knicks needed to secure a PG and other parts AFTER signing at least 1 max dude. Even with Amare you still need a PG and C. So although Donnie prob paid decent money at a chance to get some Alba action and didn't get any play from her, he wasn't totally left blue balled. He had a plan to attach Jessica's other friend.

Excellent analogy Martin.

TMS we weren't just blindly going into the FA market with no chance of landing someone. We had an excellent shot to land a star and we did. There were only a few guys available so since MIA took 3 of them off the market it seems like it was a big risk, but it was a risk worth taking. We got great value from the talent and picks we sent away. What did the draft guarantee anyone when we've seen so many times that the team with the most Ping Pong Balls hasn't won the #1 spot? Even when you do get it, there's a chance you pick Oden instead of Durant. Our picks weren't likely to be that high anyway.

One thing I believe is that no way would Melo be talking about coming here so much if we didn't land Amar'e or some other top FA and I don't think we would've been such a hot destination if we didn't have the cap space to sign 2 max players. Amar'e came knowing we had enough money to get another Max guy, so it made his decision a lot easier.

We got Hill hoping he might be a light version of Amar'e one day. Mike had a chance to work with the kid and one thing is clear... He's no Amar'e in terms of his mental approach to the game. He may have similar physical attributes which is why they were interested, but what separates Amar'e from a lot of other guys is his FIRE and MOTOR are off the charts. Hill should be able to do many of the same things. He's fast, long, has almost similar hops, has a nice stroke, but it's his drive that is nowhere near what Amar'e has and that's what I believe Mike and Donnie saw that made trading him easier.

itchetrigr wrote:if all the stars aligned for TMS we'd be right there in the hunt for carmello offering zach, jamal + a 2011 pick, cuz every SMART GM knows you dont trade away your assets for cap space...

maybe when idiots like yourself would read the posts before commenting on them we might be able to have an intelligent discussion... but considering i have never heard you contribute anything of worth on these forums to actually warrant discussion, i highly doubt it.

TMS wrote:trading future assets for star PLAYERS is a no brainer... no one is contesting this... trading future assets for nothing but cap space to try & take a gamble on a star player signing here with no guarantees in place that he will was a stupid idea from the very beginning.

for your information, i was very much in favor of dumping Zach & Jamal's contracts & i have been the most vocal opponent of ever trading for Zach Randolph to begin with... get your facts straight.

nixluva wrote:

martin wrote:

TMS wrote:

nixluva wrote:Man picks and prospects are not guarantees. People need to just get off of the this insistence that there's some guarantee that any pick will live up to his perceived potential or never exceed the predictions analysts place on them ie Landry Fields. Hill was picked for his talent, but once they had him they learned some things that alarmed them and decided he wasn't right for them. It's the same reason we didn't take Jennings. They thought they saw some things in his character that they didn't like. It turns out that he would've been the better risk, but you can't always know those things and hindsight is always 20/20.

All the time guys fail to live up to predictions or exceed them. This is why I was arguing that it was a good idea to trade those assets which are not sure things for the opportunity to sign players with a given track record. You KNOW what you're getting. Now we also took on some projects like AR & Timo, so we still managed to get the "high potential" prospects anyway. I think the right decisions were made and tho nothing is perfect it's worked out very well for this franchise to be heading in the right direction.

how do you know what you're getting when the only thing you're trading for is cap space? please explain that one... trading future assets for star PLAYERS is a no brainer... no one is contesting this... trading future assets for nothing but cap space to try & take a gamble on a star player signing here with no guarantees in place that he will was a stupid idea from the very beginning.

Except when you do actually score the big banana, cause that was exactly the strategy of Miami and they won big time. And it's similar to what the Lakers did to secure Shaq. It's a gamble that did not pay off for the Knicks.

Let's put it into terms that are perhaps more Alba-like. If a single Jessica Alba let everyone know she was gonna date one dude who came to this specific club on a specific night and ride him like a cowboy until the sun came up and all you had to do was pay the cover to the club, and you are 1 of 7 guys who gets invited (team with cap space), what's your limit on how much you would pay/gamble?

$10? $50? $100? $5000? Nothing at all cause there is no guarantee of getting laid?

It's an outlandish scenario no doubt, but I think Donnie truly believed that he HAD to have cap space to be in the game. IE, no cover charge, no play.

Generally this is not just a multiple choice question, cause there was the added knowledge that the Knicks needed to secure a PG and other parts AFTER signing at least 1 max dude. Even with Amare you still need a PG and C. So although Donnie prob paid decent money at a chance to get some Alba action and didn't get any play from her, he wasn't totally left blue balled. He had a plan to attach Jessica's other friend.

Excellent analogy Martin.

TMS we weren't just blindly going into the FA market with no chance of landing someone. We had an excellent shot to land a star and we did. There were only a few guys available so since MIA took 3 of them off the market it seems like it was a big risk, but it was a risk worth taking. We got great value from the talent and picks we sent away. What did the draft guarantee anyone when we've seen so many times that the team with the most Ping Pong Balls hasn't won the #1 spot? Even when you do get it, there's a chance you pick Oden instead of Durant. Our picks weren't likely to be that high anyway.

One thing I believe is that no way would Melo be talking about coming here so much if we didn't land Amar'e or some other top FA and I don't think we would've been such a hot destination if we didn't have the cap space to sign 2 max players. Amar'e came knowing we had enough money to get another Max guy, so it made his decision a lot easier.

We got Hill hoping he might be a light version of Amar'e one day. Mike had a chance to work with the kid and one thing is clear... He's no Amar'e in terms of his mental approach to the game. He may have similar physical attributes which is why they were interested, but what separates Amar'e from a lot of other guys is his FIRE and MOTOR are off the charts. Hill should be able to do many of the same things. He's fast, long, has almost similar hops, has a nice stroke, but it's his drive that is nowhere near what Amar'e has and that's what I believe Mike and Donnie saw that made trading him easier.

once again, you guys are spinning this scenario out to be like we had to make this deal to be in the running to land a top player as if we had zero cap space to offer any stars a max contract otherwise, which just wasn't the case... we had $27 million dollars worth of cap space whether we made the deal or not... Miami obviously knew Lebron & Bosh were going to come there, they had a guy on the inside in D Wade who knew their intentions... u think Pat Riley would have cleared everyone off his payroll unless he knew those guys were coming there? let's not be naive here.

nixluva, we "got great value from the talent & picks we sent away"??? Really? so you think Ray Felton, Timofey Mozgov & Roger Mason Jr. is "great value"??? for giving up swap rights for our 1st round pick next year & our 2012 1st round pick along w/a guy we drafted in the lottery the year before (that was still untested as a rookie) i would expect at least 1 Allstar calibre player... we didn't get one... we got 3 role players, 1 of which might not even see much playing time this year... don't talk to me about Amare, we signed him using the cap space we already had... signing him was made possible by dumping Jamal & Zach the year prior... we didn't have to include any future assets to make those deals... i had zero problem with either trade.

Maybe "B" included Melo all along.

PLan "B" if incomplete is an ongoing process. We have the proper expiring contract numbers and some yoots to make it work in many forms.

Maybe its plan "C".

We are one of the youngest teams in the league now, have much upside and can make deals going forward via trade or free agency.

The current roster is seen as a bubble playoff team.

SO we are projected to win about 10 more games this season, have youth, have flex and have a superstar.

Thats a pretty good job by most standards.

knicks1248 wrote:

TMS wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

TMS wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

TMS wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=301026013

Can't belive how some of you thought we gave up those picks to houston like JJ and Hill were anything but 12th men on a good team...No one was taking those 2 with out picks, just like denver isn't press to take any of our players now without picks

Jordan Hill's perceived value was higher at the time we made the trade... the Rockets' GM specifically asked for him to be included in the deal & Donnie was hedging on including him... let's not try & make this out to be like we had to include an extra 1st round pick to "convince" some other team to take him off our hands... that wasn't the case & you know it... but hey, anything to flash the i told you so card i guess if it makes you feel better knock yourself out.

All i'm saying is that those two were trash from the get, the only value Hill had was his postion in the draft. If you were Houstons GM you would have demanded a pick as well.

The rockets knew they had Yao coming back, wasn't planing on trading scola, and chase was showing strong signs early, they wanted hill cause he was young, and an 8th pick (maybe NY did there homework on hill).

MDA took on so much heat for not playing BAD rookies, yet inserted 2 of them in his starting line up this season, and no one is disagreeing with that move. Now that another coach has bench hill, it's because of depth.

We also have some now who want to hold on to AR like is the next KG or KD even though he's on the bubble to crak the rotation. Dude is now been label a project, in which GS was well aware. Take a look at a player like RONDO.

year 1... you show flashes...
year 2... you become consistant
year 3... should tell weather you have a true star/all star

um, no... Hill was not percieved as "trash from the get" & no, Houston's GM did not "demand a pick as well" to take him off our hands like you're trying to imply... Hill was added as a piece to the trade because the Houston GM WANTED him to be a part of the deal... he was viewed as an ASSET in the trade, not as a detracting excess piece that they took off our hands out of the kindness of their hearts... again, if u like to play the I Told You So game then at least get the facts straight.

Really...hill is a bigger project then AR, played like a rookie for the entire camp and SL.
Did you speak with anybody's agent to verify your facts, how do you know exactly what Houston wanted other then what was printed in the papaers.

Even if hill was used as a Asset (which sounds plausible) he'll collect more DNP CD then AR will fo sho...JJ is likely to be brought out if they can't finder a taker for his expiring contract.

Both were at the peak of there value when they were traded, hill wasn't getting more time and he wasn't getting any better in a hurry. I know you biggest concern was the pick, but that pick (in all likely hood) could have turned into another pine riding PROJECT.

i love when guys like you make these blanket general assumptions like "Hill was trash from get & we had to include a draft pick to get Houston to take him off our hands" & then demand unequivocal proof to the contrary from anyone who challenges it.

when all the talk about the rumored deal was heating up, it was reported in the media that the Rockets were requesting that Jordan Hill be included as part of the package... i'm not sure whether the journalists who covered that trade ever actually spoke with anybody's agent to verify their facts, but i'm going to assume they have their sources that are probably more reliable than the sources you've referenced that told you that we had to include a draft pick in order for Houston to take Jordan Hill off our hands.

whether he's going to collect DNP's or not going forward, that doesn't change anything about his percieved value at the time we made the deal. u don't have to take my word for it:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/bk/bkn/6872624.html

Hill, an Arizona teammate of Rockets rookie Chase Budinger and the eighth player taken in the draft last June, has played in just 24 games, averaging 4.1 points in an average of 10.5 minutes. A 6-10 power forward who did not start playing organized basketball until his junior year in high school, Hill is considered a long-term project, but one with a high-energy game and outstanding athleticism to play above the rim.

“We like his potential,” Morey said. “We liked him in the draft last year. He has a mid-range jumper and developing post game with a righthanded hook. Defensively, he is very active, mobile for his size, a solid rebounder.

“We’re very happy. Time will tell in the deal, but we came into the deadline with some goals to upgrade our wing scoring and to give ourselves players who can help us now and in the future, and we feel good about what we were able to do.”

You gripe was that we should hang on to the pick or player...It's still early, but you can't deny that the extra $ got us felton and Tim, which IMO is like getting a low teens pick, and upgraded PG..

You already know that if hill continued under MDA his value would of been even lower, so he would have never really been consider an asset for any real S&T this past summer. It would have been right around bill walkers level during the nate trade.

the only gripe i have on this thread is that you're twisting the facts to suit your argument... you said Jordan Hill was trash from get & we had to include draft picks to get Houston to take him off our hands... that clearly was not the case... Houston was high on Jordan Hill's potential & considered him an ASSET in the trade... again, you can play the I Told You So card all you want, but at least get the facts straight.

TMS wrote:nixluva, we "got great value from the talent & picks we sent away"??? Really? so you think Ray Felton, Timofey Mozgov & Roger Mason Jr. is "great value"??? for giving up swap rights for our 1st round pick next year & our 2012 1st round pick along w/a guy we drafted in the lottery the year before (that was still untested as a rookie) i would expect at least 1 Allstar calibre player... we didn't get one... we got 3 role players, 1 of which might not even see much playing time this year... don't talk to me about Amare, we signed him using the cap space we already had... signing him was made possible by dumping Jamal & Zach the year prior... we didn't have to include any future assets to make those deals... i had zero problem with either trade.

Good value is based on more than whether we got another All Star. We didn't overspend and picked up talent with short reasonable contracts. We will still have flexibility as a franchise. In comparison, Hill was not what Mike or Donnie hoped he'd be. You win some, you lose some. The picks are almost irrelevant in terms of their value. I think Denver is using the lack of picks as an excuse. They simply don't want to trade Melo. Our 2012 pick isn't gonna be that high to begin with, even less so after they gave up Melo. So go ahead and believe that the picks are what's standing in our way if you want to.

knicks1248 wrote:http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=301026013

Can't belive how some of you thought we gave up those picks to houston like JJ and Hill were anything but 12th men on a good team...No one was taking those 2 with out picks, just like denver isn't press to take any of our players now without picks

itchetrigr wrote:

TMS wrote:

itchetrigr wrote:if all the stars aligned for TMS we'd be right there in the hunt for carmello offering zach, jamal + a 2011 pick, cuz every SMART GM knows you dont trade away your assets for cap space...

maybe when idiots like yourself would read the posts before commenting on them we might be able to have an intelligent discussion... but considering i have never heard you contribute anything of worth on these forums to actually warrant discussion, i highly doubt it.

TMS wrote:trading future assets for star PLAYERS is a no brainer... no one is contesting this... trading future assets for nothing but cap space to try & take a gamble on a star player signing here with no guarantees in place that he will was a stupid idea from the very beginning.

for your information, i was very much in favor of dumping Zach & Jamal's contracts & i have been the most vocal opponent of ever trading for Zach Randolph to begin with... get your facts straight.

didnt mean to rub you wrong, i apologize. it was my mistake not to catch what you actually wrote about future assets, to me it seemed like your reffering to assets in general that could be used in the melo trade if we had them at this time. and hill being very much an asset on our team last year i missed your point.

anyhow here goes

Year	Round	Pick	Player	Nationality	
2009	1	8	Jordan Hill			
2008	1	6	Danilo Gallinari			
2007	1	23	Wilson Chandler			
2006	1	20	Renaldo Balkman			
2006	1	29	Mardy Collins			
2005	1	8	Channing Frye			
2005	1	30	David Lee			
2005	2	24	Dijon Thompson			
2004	2	14	Trevor Ariza			
2003	1	9	Michael Sweetney			
2003	2	1	Maciej Lampe			
2003	2	10	Slavko Vraneš			
2002	1	7	Nenê		
2002	2	7	Miloš Vujanić			
2001	2	10	Michael Wright			
2001	2	14	Eric Chenowith			
2000	2	10	Lavor Postell			
2000	2	29	Pete Mickeal			
1999	1	15	Frédéric Weis			

now thats ten years of what you consider "future assets" for the knicks

1 year of cap space got us Amare Staudamire and i'll trade any combination of those barring maybe david lee for a chance @ 2 Max players...

future assets are not always worth their weight in gold.

sometimes you luck out and draft an allstar but in ten years of draft pics that list paints a different picture.

giving me a list of draft day busts does nothing to prove to me that 1st round picks don't have value... do u really want me to pop off a list of 1st round pick selections that have gone on to be great players in the NBA? it's a pointless debate... 1st round picks do & will always have value in this league... you're just being blind if you don't recognize that... whether that pick we gave up along w/Hill & the swap rights end up to be anything of substance in the years to come is anyone's guess, but i do know that we did not get fair value in return in that trade... we dealt from a position of weakness because we were so desperate to clear Fishlips' contract off our books without even knowing whether or not Lebron had any intentions of signing w/us this past summer... this was all done months in advance before we even knew how the market was going to play out... the move reaked of complete & utter desperation on our part... did we really not think that we'd be the only team out there that would be able to offer Lebron & Wade a chance to play together on a championship calibre roster? come on, we got played, it's pretty evident... even Donnie realizes this now.

as for Amare signing here, once again, WE HAD $27M IN CAP SPACE BEFORE WE EVER MADE THAT TRADE... so please enough w/the assumptions that we only got him because we cleared Fishlips' contract off the books... it wasn't like that & you know it.

anyway i apologize for calling u an idiot... it just gets annoying when people fall back on the same old ridiculous references to Jamal & Zach everytime this discussion pops up... i've made my position know many times over about being in favor of both those deals... let's not misrepresent people's arguments.

CrushAlot wrote:Update:

Jordan Hill(notes) has moved ahead of Brad Miller(notes) as Yao’s primary backup and averaged 26 minutes, 8.3 points, 6.3 boards, and 2.3 blocks over the past three games. Deep-leaguers in need of big-man stats, take note.

http://sports.yahoo.com/fantasy/nba/news?slug=mb-skinny_110810

He moved past a 38 year old center ready for retirement in the rotation. Good job.

CrushAlot wrote:

Childs2Dudley wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Update:

Jordan Hill(notes) has moved ahead of Brad Miller(notes) as Yao’s primary backup and averaged 26 minutes, 8.3 points, 6.3 boards, and 2.3 blocks over the past three games. Deep-leaguers in need of big-man stats, take note.

http://sports.yahoo.com/fantasy/nba/news?slug=mb-skinny_110810

He moved past a 38 year old center ready for retirement in the rotation. Good job.

Miller is 34. He also was targeted by Houston in free agency and Chicago wanted to keep him.

Cool story but he's a hasbeen now.

CrushAlot wrote:

Childs2Dudley wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Update:

Jordan Hill(notes) has moved ahead of Brad Miller(notes) as Yao’s primary backup and averaged 26 minutes, 8.3 points, 6.3 boards, and 2.3 blocks over the past three games. Deep-leaguers in need of big-man stats, take note.

http://sports.yahoo.com/fantasy/nba/news?slug=mb-skinny_110810

He moved past a 38 year old center ready for retirement in the rotation. Good job.

Miller is 34. He also was targeted by Houston in free agency and Chicago wanted to keep him.

I think the other reason Miller was passed by Hill is that Miller is incredibly out of shape.