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Why it may not even matter at all even if we get Melo
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nixluva
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9/1/2010  9:59 PM
You know who Melo reminds me of... Dominique Wilkins! Great talent. One of the best to ever play the game. He's capable of doing so much offensively that it gets his team far in the playoffs, but you just get the idea that he's not one of those elite winners in terms of making his teammates better so that he can get over the top. Now I won't be mad at the knicks if we end up with the guy, cuz he can play. I just want Donnie to be careful in what part of the franchise is mortgaged to get this guy and then what will be left to still build a championship team. What's left after the deal?

If the cost isn't too much in that we can retain talent it would make more sense. In any event I expect to go into the season with what we have and at least get a sense of what we have in our young guys. Now if they look great I expect Denver will ask for them and I would think Donnie would balk at that request. Gallo + AR playing up to their potential is worth more than Melo IMO.
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Vmart
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9/1/2010  10:07 PM
nixluva wrote:You know who Melo reminds me of... Dominique Wilkins! Great talent. One of the best to ever play the game. He's capable of doing so much offensively that it gets his team far in the playoffs, but you just get the idea that he's not one of those elite winners in terms of making his teammates better so that he can get over the top. Now I won't be mad at the knicks if we end up with the guy, cuz he can play. I just want Donnie to be careful in what part of the franchise is mortgaged to get this guy and then what will be left to still build a championship team. What's left after the deal?

If the cost isn't too much in that we can retain talent it would make more sense. In any event I expect to go into the season with what we have and at least get a sense of what we have in our young guys. Now if they look great I expect Denver will ask for them and I would think Donnie would balk at that request. Gallo + AR playing up to their potential is worth more than Melo IMO.

With that said what was the best player that Wilkins played with? Wilkins constantly went up against teams with multiple star players and he produced just as Melo has. Now imagine Melo with Amare the team just shoots itself up to another level of play.
Allanfan20
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9/1/2010  10:19 PM
Vmart wrote:
nixluva wrote:You know who Melo reminds me of... Dominique Wilkins! Great talent. One of the best to ever play the game. He's capable of doing so much offensively that it gets his team far in the playoffs, but you just get the idea that he's not one of those elite winners in terms of making his teammates better so that he can get over the top. Now I won't be mad at the knicks if we end up with the guy, cuz he can play. I just want Donnie to be careful in what part of the franchise is mortgaged to get this guy and then what will be left to still build a championship team. What's left after the deal?

If the cost isn't too much in that we can retain talent it would make more sense. In any event I expect to go into the season with what we have and at least get a sense of what we have in our young guys. Now if they look great I expect Denver will ask for them and I would think Donnie would balk at that request. Gallo + AR playing up to their potential is worth more than Melo IMO.

With that said what was the best player that Wilkins played with? Wilkins constantly went up against teams with multiple star players and he produced just as Melo has. Now imagine Melo with Amare the team just shoots itself up to another level of play.

No it doesn't. They are two completely different players that rely on completely different team styles. Melo wouldn't mesh well with this offense and he needs to dominate the ball, while Amar'e is best at playing in a team game featuring ball and player movement. They are both great players, but not great together.

I love cheeseburgers and cookies and cream ice cream. They are delicious. Mix them together though, and you have something nasty. Same thing.

“I couldn’t dunk it so I tried to, you know, just touched it.”- OG Anunoby
Vmart
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9/1/2010  10:41 PM
Allanfan20 wrote:
Vmart wrote:
nixluva wrote:You know who Melo reminds me of... Dominique Wilkins! Great talent. One of the best to ever play the game. He's capable of doing so much offensively that it gets his team far in the playoffs, but you just get the idea that he's not one of those elite winners in terms of making his teammates better so that he can get over the top. Now I won't be mad at the knicks if we end up with the guy, cuz he can play. I just want Donnie to be careful in what part of the franchise is mortgaged to get this guy and then what will be left to still build a championship team. What's left after the deal?

If the cost isn't too much in that we can retain talent it would make more sense. In any event I expect to go into the season with what we have and at least get a sense of what we have in our young guys. Now if they look great I expect Denver will ask for them and I would think Donnie would balk at that request. Gallo + AR playing up to their potential is worth more than Melo IMO.

With that said what was the best player that Wilkins played with? Wilkins constantly went up against teams with multiple star players and he produced just as Melo has. Now imagine Melo with Amare the team just shoots itself up to another level of play.

No it doesn't. They are two completely different players that rely on completely different team styles. Melo wouldn't mesh well with this offense and he needs to dominate the ball, while Amar'e is best at playing in a team game featuring ball and player movement. They are both great players, but not great together.

I love cheeseburgers and cookies and cream ice cream. They are delicious. Mix them together though, and you have something nasty. Same thing.

Will not mesh with this offense. Your joking right, if anything he will mesh better than most players his field goal percentage will go up and he will be dropping 30+ a night. Melo's game is so adaptable to his surrounding and the team's needs. I know that Amare wants him on his team and so does D'Antoni. Don't think for a second that MDA wouldn't want a player that scores effortlessly and draws attention from other players. His presence opens up every facet of an MDA offense.
nixluva
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9/1/2010  10:42 PM
Well yeah the idea is to get Melo, Amare and ... to be our trio at the top of the roster. We don't know if we'd retain Gallo who is our next most valuable talent or AR who I put in there as well. That means we'd have to scrounge with whatever is left of the cap to try and find that 3rd guy and fillout the rest of the roster. We actually have some decent guys already that seem like they could form a good supporting cast, but that elusive 3rd guy would be my concern. Melo and Amar'e wouldn't be enough IMO.
martin
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9/1/2010  11:26 PM
tj23 wrote:
martin wrote:
tj23 wrote:
martin wrote:
tj23 wrote:Didnt Melo shoot the same fg% kobe did last year? lol

why should that matter?


How is 45% not effecient enough if thats what one of the few superstars in the league is shooting?

I don't think anyone is arguing that we should go after Melo based on his shooting % of last year. That's why I ask if that really matters.

Does he play defense? Does he make other around him better? What's his contract gonna be like?


I take all of that into consideration but I think really, even if we have to overpay, will we find another guy of his caliber? When people say no to trading Gallo I can only laugh because Melo is miles ahead of him. Gallo can play good d at times but he is not a reliable defender at all. And he shoots what, 42%? I would settle for losing in the ecf every year. That's just me. Not that I wanna lose but it would be really hard to do better than Melo and beat the heat anyway, especially with the way we hand out draft picks to other teams lol.

you can settle for second round losses and whatnot, Im going for gold.

And before you start laying down FG% you should flatline and check numbers. Melo plays on a much better team and is the focus, Gallo plays on a crappy team and for the most part was in his first year. Apples and oranges really.


Season  		TS%  	eFG%  
2009-10 	Gallo	.575 	.523
2009-10 	Melo	.548  	.478
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Allanfan20
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9/1/2010  11:33 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/1/2010  11:38 PM
Vmart wrote:
Allanfan20 wrote:
Vmart wrote:
nixluva wrote:You know who Melo reminds me of... Dominique Wilkins! Great talent. One of the best to ever play the game. He's capable of doing so much offensively that it gets his team far in the playoffs, but you just get the idea that he's not one of those elite winners in terms of making his teammates better so that he can get over the top. Now I won't be mad at the knicks if we end up with the guy, cuz he can play. I just want Donnie to be careful in what part of the franchise is mortgaged to get this guy and then what will be left to still build a championship team. What's left after the deal?

If the cost isn't too much in that we can retain talent it would make more sense. In any event I expect to go into the season with what we have and at least get a sense of what we have in our young guys. Now if they look great I expect Denver will ask for them and I would think Donnie would balk at that request. Gallo + AR playing up to their potential is worth more than Melo IMO.

With that said what was the best player that Wilkins played with? Wilkins constantly went up against teams with multiple star players and he produced just as Melo has. Now imagine Melo with Amare the team just shoots itself up to another level of play.

No it doesn't. They are two completely different players that rely on completely different team styles. Melo wouldn't mesh well with this offense and he needs to dominate the ball, while Amar'e is best at playing in a team game featuring ball and player movement. They are both great players, but not great together.

I love cheeseburgers and cookies and cream ice cream. They are delicious. Mix them together though, and you have something nasty. Same thing.

Will not mesh with this offense. Your joking right, if anything he will mesh better than most players his field goal percentage will go up and he will be dropping 30+ a night. Melo's game is so adaptable to his surrounding and the team's needs. I know that Amare wants him on his team and so does D'Antoni. Don't think for a second that MDA wouldn't want a player that scores effortlessly and draws attention from other players. His presence opens up every facet of an MDA offense.

He may be dropping 30 a night, but that doesn't mean we will be winning games like the Heat will be, nor will we be beating them. At least with the team as constructed, there's space to improve. When you add Carmello, there's no room to improve. That's what you have, and NO, it wouldn't be the offense you're envisioning, especially consideing we'd be giving up Gallo and AR.

This wouldn't be Kobe and Shaq. It would be Melo dominating the ball and Amar'e wondering when he'll get the ball and the rest of the Knicks wondering what the point of this offense will be. It will also be a weakened defensive team. With what we have, we can be strong on that end with Felton, Chandler, Gallo, AR, Turiaf and Amar'e going man to man. Take away AR and even Gallo, and the defense potentially collapses, and we end up being just as bad as we were the past few seasons, meaning, a first round exit at best. Yes, that's WITH Melo.

Just because something is flashing in front of you doesn't mean you have to take it. This is someone we're better off not trading for.

We're going to be a winning team this year for the record, and probably BETTER than a team with Melo. That's an ass hang.

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TMS
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9/2/2010  2:01 AM    LAST EDITED: 9/2/2010  2:16 AM
loweyecue wrote:Too many people seem to be too down on Melo and too high on Gallo/AR. I am high on Gallo too but Melo can hang with Lebron/Kobe and has shown as much. How can you guys just write that off? Amare/Melo as a core is not the best possible but its the best we can get now (several years to come). There aren't any other big name FAs on the horizon. Melo isn't over the hill and has been the primary option on his team for too long. He may do better in a more balanced offense. If we get these two guys then add a superstar PG down the road, Parker/Paul/Rubio who is to say we can't be really really good?

Trading for Melo is the high percentage move. I love Gallo but Melo can help us more right now. No use falling in love with someone's "potential" and pass on a sure thing.

the hilarious part is guys were proposing trades of Gallo for AR not too long ago... now they're both untouchables & Melo is just Al Harrington Heavy... come on y'all.

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Childs2Dudley
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9/2/2010  2:12 AM
It doesn't.
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fishmike
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9/2/2010  8:07 AM
Vmart wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Vmart wrote:I don't agree with this assessment. We lose Gallo and AR why can't Chandler be the thrid guy on the team or Felton why not Mozgov who knows what he will be will be.

You give me a lineup of:
Felton pg
Melo sg/sf
Mozgov C
Chandler sf/sg
Amare pf

Bench still has Fields, Douglas, Azu, Turiaf, Rautins, Ewing Jr., Walker.

The Knicks still have people that have good potential and can get better.

The Knicks can do damage. If Chandler elevates his game he can be the third option and Knicks have his bird rights and can exceed cap to keep him around. I want to keep AR/Gallo around but if its for a proven star power player that elevates others game and guarantees playoffs you don't hesitate to make the move for Melo.

what other player(s) have Melo elevated the game of? The guy is a black hole. There is no shot he didnt like (notice the FG%).

He makes the all star game about 50% and since being in the league he's advanced in the playoffs one year.

Thanks... I will pass. You trade Gallo/AR and its back to the days of hoping guys like Channing Frye become Kevin Garnett

Black hole? its pretty obvious by now that your heart is doing the writing for you not the brain. Like I said before don't minimize Melo's accomplishment just to elevate your point of view to keep Gallo and AR. Melo consistently as the so called Black Hole produced 50+ wins went to the WCF went toe to toe with Kobe in a tough fought series. Denver asked him to shoot and he did and he produced wins. He was asked to fill the role of shooter for that team and he did what the team asked of him. The thought of a player that can score consistently requires doubles and Melo often required doubles and teams geared themselves to stop him. Why because he is a force. Melo draws attention from the other players and that allows the other to play at a higher level. I don't understand why this is so hard for you to comprehend. Just team him up with Amare and watch both of them feed off each other and produce at the highest possible level.

You get your superstars in and then build around them. Its a simple formula. You can find your role players later and you have your star players in place.


not at all. David Lee was my fav Knick and more than happy to lose him for the team we have.

Your arguement is based on Melo being a superstar and then just getting role players which is easy. If its so easy why hasnt Denver done that? One year they made it out of round 1 since Melo was there... one year.

Melo isnt a superstar. I dont know why thats so hard for you to comprehend.

Show me a successful NBA franchise built around a guy who scores and does little else. You cant because there isnt one. If Melo was a top flight defensive player or a 10rpg guy or a 6-7 assist guy then I would comprehend making this trade just fine.

He's a 2 time all star in 7 years. His teams are 2-6 in playoff series (but he ALMOST won some others wow). He gets you a turnover for every assist. He has a lower FG% than the players he guards.

Pretty sure I am comprehending this pretty good. Melo not a superstar. Great scorer and thats it.

I would rather build a team around size and skill and athleticism and defense then build around a guy who shoots all the time.

Only Monta Ellis shoots more than Melo.

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iSergio
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9/2/2010  8:51 AM
Carmelo Anthony IS a SuperStar. Stats don't always tell the whole story. You think David Lee is a Star and he's not.
Allanfan20
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9/2/2010  8:54 AM
No he's not.
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iSergio
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9/2/2010  8:55 AM
Allanfan20 wrote:No he's not.

28 ppg, 7 rpg, 3 apg, 1 spg IS a SuperStar to me.
Allanfan20
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9/2/2010  9:04 AM
iSergio wrote:
Allanfan20 wrote:No he's not.

28 ppg, 7 rpg, 3 apg, 1 spg IS a SuperStar to me.

LeBron, Wade, Kobe, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard and maybe Pau Gasol are superstars. Carmello is a star. If you take Carmello off the Nuggets, they would be worse, but they could recover pretty quick. Especially if they get good young players. If you take any of those guys I just listed, they get sent on a downward spiral. Those are the guys you go for at all costs and I'm hesitant to do that with Chris Paul because of his knee injury.

Carmello isn't in their atmosphere even though he puts up great stats.

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iSergio
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9/2/2010  9:06 AM
Allanfan20 wrote:
iSergio wrote:
Allanfan20 wrote:No he's not.

28 ppg, 7 rpg, 3 apg, 1 spg IS a SuperStar to me.

LeBron, Wade, Kobe, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard and maybe Pau Gasol are superstars. Carmello is a star. If you take Carmello off the Nuggets, they would be worse, but they could recover pretty quick. Especially if they get good young players. If you take any of those guys I just listed, they get sent on a downward spiral. Those are the guys you go for at all costs and I'm hesitant to do that with Chris Paul because of his knee injury.

Carmello isn't in their atmosphere even though he puts up great stats.

If you replace Carmelo Anthony on Denver with Danilo Gallinari and Anthony Randolph, they are a 30-35 win team. If you replace Gallo and Randolph with Melo here, we win 55.
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9/2/2010  9:53 AM
iSergio wrote:
Allanfan20 wrote:No he's not.

28 ppg, 7 rpg, 3 apg, 1 spg IS a SuperStar to me.

20ppg, 11rpg, 4 apg, 55% FGs IS a superstar to me. Oh wait. David Lee plays ZERO defense. Tell me you give Carmello a pass because he read the David Lee manual on how to defend.

Melo is 2 time all star who has advanced in the playoffs once.

He can carry the scoring load for your team. Gallo and AR cant.

We dont need guys who can score. We need size, skill, depth and defense.

You missing the point. Melo is better than AR and Gallo, but we dont need to trade those guys for him, and we shouldnt.

If the goal is to win a title trading for Melo ensures that wont happen. Melo takes up 1-2 of your best young high ceiling players AND eats up all your cap space.

If we wants to come here he can next year. Hell, I'm not even sure I would want time. I would rather use the cap space on Marc Gasol, Horford, Dalembert maybe... maybe Caron Butler, Jason Richardson. Get a stopper like Shane Battier to play SG/SF. We can do that and keep AR/Gallo who are rotation building block players with all star potential.

Sergio.. your Isiah Thomas all over again. Sure... Melo makes us better, hes an all star, he's a shiney new toy and he gets you futher from winning a title here, not closer.

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9/2/2010  9:56 AM
carmelo is basically bernard king jr. i mean, that's what people should expect if he comes here. a very very very good player, who has enough talent to be the best player on the floor and dominate on offense.

but he's not winning anything by himself.

¿ △ ?
martin
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9/2/2010  10:11 AM
If the Knicks currently had Ewing in his prime - a shotblocking, rebound, defensive presence in the middle along with the scoring - I would say that adding Melo would be perfect. Their respective games seem to compliment one another. Amare is a different animal and adding Melo to him would not take the team to an elite status in the league. And adding role players to those 2 guys would certainly not be enough to get past Miami or perhaps even Orlando; not even sure having 1 of Gallo or AR next to those guys is enough for Miami.
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iSergio
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9/2/2010  10:39 AM
fishmike wrote:
iSergio wrote:
Allanfan20 wrote:No he's not.

28 ppg, 7 rpg, 3 apg, 1 spg IS a SuperStar to me.

20ppg, 11rpg, 4 apg, 55% FGs IS a superstar to me. Oh wait. David Lee plays ZERO defense. Tell me you give Carmello a pass because he read the David Lee manual on how to defend.

Melo is 2 time all star who has advanced in the playoffs once.

He can carry the scoring load for your team. Gallo and AR cant.

We dont need guys who can score. We need size, skill, depth and defense.

You missing the point. Melo is better than AR and Gallo, but we dont need to trade those guys for him, and we shouldnt.

If the goal is to win a title trading for Melo ensures that wont happen. Melo takes up 1-2 of your best young high ceiling players AND eats up all your cap space.

If we wants to come here he can next year. Hell, I'm not even sure I would want time. I would rather use the cap space on Marc Gasol, Horford, Dalembert maybe... maybe Caron Butler, Jason Richardson. Get a stopper like Shane Battier to play SG/SF. We can do that and keep AR/Gallo who are rotation building block players with all star potential.

Sergio.. your Isiah Thomas all over again. Sure... Melo makes us better, hes an all star, he's a shiney new toy and he gets you futher from winning a title here, not closer.


LOL I'm no Isiah Thomas. I'm trading two role players for 1 elite SuperStar.
martin
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9/2/2010  10:48 AM
iSergio wrote:
fishmike wrote:
iSergio wrote:
Allanfan20 wrote:No he's not.

28 ppg, 7 rpg, 3 apg, 1 spg IS a SuperStar to me.

20ppg, 11rpg, 4 apg, 55% FGs IS a superstar to me. Oh wait. David Lee plays ZERO defense. Tell me you give Carmello a pass because he read the David Lee manual on how to defend.

Melo is 2 time all star who has advanced in the playoffs once.

He can carry the scoring load for your team. Gallo and AR cant.

We dont need guys who can score. We need size, skill, depth and defense.

You missing the point. Melo is better than AR and Gallo, but we dont need to trade those guys for him, and we shouldnt.

If the goal is to win a title trading for Melo ensures that wont happen. Melo takes up 1-2 of your best young high ceiling players AND eats up all your cap space.

If we wants to come here he can next year. Hell, I'm not even sure I would want time. I would rather use the cap space on Marc Gasol, Horford, Dalembert maybe... maybe Caron Butler, Jason Richardson. Get a stopper like Shane Battier to play SG/SF. We can do that and keep AR/Gallo who are rotation building block players with all star potential.

Sergio.. your Isiah Thomas all over again. Sure... Melo makes us better, hes an all star, he's a shiney new toy and he gets you futher from winning a title here, not closer.


LOL I'm no Isiah Thomas. I'm trading two role players for 1 elite SuperStar.

Is Melo an elite superstar cause he scores a lot? Does he play D? Make those around him better?

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