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what's van horn still doing here?
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NYKBocker
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1/19/2004  11:51 PM
Posted by fishmike:

Moleculo83 is a veteran... he's just from another team.

I hated the KVH trade because I KNEW Layden would expect him and McDyess to carry this team (to 30 wins). But with Zeke this team isnt build around McDyess and KVH and Houston... its built around out 26 year old all star PG, and KVH is the PERFECT complimentary player.

I still think KVH is overpaid and isnt aggressive enough (especially late in games). He also gets banged up a lot, but like I said. He's not our star anymore, he part of what can be one of the deepest teams in the NBA.

I think if we could move Kurt for Jerome Williams and Crawford, then get Wilcox for Frank Williams we could be the best team in the East for many years to come.

Time will tell what Zeke has up his sleeve

You are absolutely correct about KVH being the perfect complimentary player for Marbury. Stephon needs players that can hit the open shot and athletic enough to run with him. Look how much success he had in Phoenix with Matrix and Stoudemire. NOT! He is not Jason Kidd. He is a different type of PG. He can dominate the game by scoring therefore players tend to double him and leave others open.(i.e. KVH) Almost all pieces are in place. We just need to get a young big man that is athletic and long to backup Deke.

I would not trade KT for Jerome Williams and Crawford. It leaves a big hole in the 4 spot.

Also, about KVH. I don't understand the hate being given to KVH by a lot of fans. Is it because he is white? Because he is not cool enough? Because he is making a lot of money? I thought the point of playing sports is to win and I beleive KVH helps us accomplish that goal.
AUTOADVERT
simrud
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1/20/2004  12:51 AM
We have to realize that at this point Van Horn is worth so much to us that trading him would have to be for an allstar PF such as Brand in order for that trade to be good for us. Unless Thomas manages to make a fool out of a GM with an allstar PF this is simply not possible. So we should all just enjoy KVH's play and root our now playoff team on. Maybe it's just me but just being able to enjoy an exciting competetive team lead by an awesome player such as Marbury is great and only getting a PF is worth breaking up this group.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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1/20/2004  1:34 AM
If we can get a star-level PF/C then KVH is the bait.

We are still too perimeter-oriented, and need to broaden the scoring spectrum beyond jump shots. We also need more post defense.

Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
Caseloads
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1/20/2004  1:42 AM
Posted by Nalod:

It benefits the team to create an atmosphere where existing players elevate their games.

Whether its KVH, Allan, and Marbury. Each of them can play better. Marbury as a leader, Allan stronger, and KVH in the clutch.

He carried the team in Chicago. He has had clutch moments in the past.

Bottom line, he is a better fit than Spree was.
i've said all this... verbatim
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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1/20/2004  1:15 PM
Isiah will make another trade, this time for a player that fits better than KVH does Now. KVH will be involved in that trade, mark my words.
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
fishmike
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1/20/2004  1:43 PM
I dont have a problem with trading KVH, if it really is for a better fit. But KVH is extremely productive and is a big asset to this team. I dont see how Raweed Wallace is a better fit, he's just a bigger mental case.

Hey, the Marbury deal came out of nowhere. Media had NO clue... so we will see what happens.

Maybe with the Clippers realing Elton Brand and his remaining 6 years is available. Will KVH and Frank Williams get it done? Not unless Isiah uses a Jedi mind trick on Sterling, so to be honest I dont know whats out there.

At this point I think the best bet is to get all these guys like KVH playing at a high level and go into the playoffs with some momentum. If we can win a series and advance even better, but I think making the playoffs this year is a respectable goal. You have to be good before you can be great.

Then in the offseason we deal from a position of strength.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
smallz
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1/20/2004  1:54 PM
KVH rite now is playing great y does everybody want him out of ny??
hes playing great with steph and the team is playing great. Unless u can get an allstar pf and a fitting replacment for kvh i wouldnt trade him. You would be messing up the chemistrty that the team finally has .
Rocky the worlds greatest fighter
blueandorange
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1/20/2004  2:00 PM
yeah, isiah wants to dump a sack of trash named 'van horn', but he can't get the deal done. there's no more bullets left in zeke's gun. if he coulda traded van bore, he'da done so by now. truth is, the knicks are stuck with this sad legacy from the layden era, to the knick fans' everlasting sorrow.

Mark my words: van bore will remain with the knicks past the trade deadline.
KVH IS FOOL'S GOLD
NYKBocker
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1/20/2004  2:26 PM
Posted by blueandorange:

yeah, isiah wants to dump a sack of trash named 'van horn', but he can't get the deal done. there's no more bullets left in zeke's gun. if he coulda traded van bore, he'da done so by now. truth is, the knicks are stuck with this sad legacy from the layden era, to the knick fans' everlasting sorrow.

Mark my words: van bore will remain with the knicks past the trade deadline.

I think you are bandying that idea a little too easy. I am a Knick fan and I beleive that we are stepping in the right direction. I don't think KVH is trash. Again, he is the perfect compliment to Marburys game. He is the 3rd scoring option in a lethal scoring team. This means that he will not be asked to create and score during crunch time. He will be an outlet for Stephon when he penetrates.

Also, Van Bore? Does that mean that you hate Tim Duncan's game as well. I am not saying that they are in the same level, but they play the same way, good fundamental basketball. Watch KVH box out. it is text book.

Nalod
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1/20/2004  2:30 PM
Not unless Isiah uses a Jedi mind trick on Sterling, so to be honest I dont know whats out there.

LOL!

If KVH is damaged goods, we are not getting much value for him.

KVH is an unusual SF: Big, can rebound, can run, and nice outside shot!

Poor Isiah, first stuck with overpaid Austin Croshure, now KVH.

If he is trying to recreate the Badboys, he should have kept FatSpoon to recreate the "Mark Aguire" role as big belly small forward.
fishmike
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1/20/2004  2:45 PM
people and their opinions on this board regarding KVH are a little crazy.
For the year he's averaging 17/7 and 19/7 in Jan.
AND he's basicly the 3rd option in our offense, yet people talk about him like he's Spoon or Eisley and would take a couple half eaten Big Macs if we could get this guy off the roster.

Would I rather have Al Harrington or Artest? Yes and yes, but in the NBA SFs are usually role players and its the most undefined position.

I DONT want Raweed Wallace, because while very talented I dont think he cares that much about winning or basketball in general.

So before you wonder why we havent just dumped this guy getting 18 and 7 everynight lets hear the player we are getting back.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Nalod
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1/20/2004  3:15 PM

Amen FishMike!

Not hating Isiah here, but remember those great Pacer trades were orchestrated by Donnie Walsh, not Isiah.

This mini streak is nice. We should be beating teams that are sub 500.

Before we run out and replace our SF, I'd like to see an upgrade at the PF, and center. We need better athletes there as perscribed by the Thomas theory. KVH is a very athletic 6-10 swingman. He is not going to slow the team down, Thomas and Mutumbo will.
knickgeek
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1/20/2004  6:01 PM
I think Keith has played well and the Knicks should keep him, but I don't think he fits in Isiah's plans. Isiah hasn't said anything good about him since becoming the GM, and he has gone out of his way to praise other players. That's a signal we shouldn't ignore.

I don't think we should compare KVH to Spree, but you have to admit that Sprewell is a more complete basketball player. If he's having a bad scoring night he's still playing tough D and getting assists. If Van Horn isn't scoring, he's useless, and he will have those slumps. (you could say the same about Houston). I think Isiah would like to trade him for a more complete basketball player.

HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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1/20/2004  6:38 PM
Posted by knickgeek:

I think Keith has played well and the Knicks should keep him, but I don't think he fits in Isiah's plans. Isiah hasn't said anything good about him since becoming the GM, and he has gone out of his way to praise other players. That's a signal we shouldn't ignore.

I don't think we should compare KVH to Spree, but you have to admit that Sprewell is a more complete basketball player. If he's having a bad scoring night he's still playing tough D and getting assists. If Van Horn isn't scoring, he's useless, and he will have those slumps. (you could say the same about Houston). I think Isiah would like to trade him for a more complete basketball player.

Good post, Knickgeek. Very objective...
That's a rare quality in a KVH fan.

Anyway, I see the writing on the wall too (with Isiah not giving him props). The reasoning for that is exactly that which you pointed out. That was my argument regarding KVH when that trade first went down- the same comparisons to Spree that you mentioned... Especially that "more complete player" part. YES! Right on the money.

We should have that more complete player real soon. I can't wait!

[Edited by - HARDCOREKNICKSFAN on 01/20/2004 18:41:47]
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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1/20/2004  6:54 PM
It seems like Chad Ford is back on the 12-step program and off the crack. It's a few days old, but still applicable. Check this out...

Will the Knicks pull off another blockbuster? As I just wrote above, the feeling on Wednesday was that Thomas was looking to make one major trade. Both scenarios (Portland and Cleveland) are still just rumors in my mind. But they're interesting and more plausible than they first appeared on paper.

Rasheed Wallace
Small Forward
Portland Trail Blazers
Profile

2003-2004 SEASON STATISTICS
GM PPG RPG APG FG% FT%
32 17.0 6.8 2.8 .429 .726



Upon taking over the Knicks, Thomas set out to get two marquee players -- Marbury and Wallace. Thomas used up most of his trade bait to get Marbury, leading many to believe that Wallace was unattainable. Given the latest talk, that may be misguided. While Blazers GM John Nash has been adamant in the past about not taking back long-term deals for Wallace, a trade with the Knicks may make some sense for Portland if the Knicks are willing to take back Ruben Patterson as part of the trade.

If the Knicks sent Van Horn, Williams, Sweetney, Michael Doleac and Dikembe Mutombo to Portland for Wallace and Patterson, the Blazers' cap number would rise from a projected $42 million next year to around $55 million. That's a pretty big increase to swallow, but if they can last one more year while they wait for Dale Davis and Damon Stoudamire to come off the books, the number gets much more palatable.

Right now the Blazers have only $18.3 million in committed salaries for the 2005-06 season. That number would go to $27.6, still far enough under the cap to make a big free-agent signing and re-sign Zach Randolph. In 2006-07, their number would actually go down from a projected $18.5 million to $11.5 million because Van Horn comes off the books before Patterson.

The bottom line for the Blazers is that, at $42 million, they won't have enough cash to get a marquee free agent to replace Wallace anyway. Why not take on a good small forward (whose talents are better suited to the West Coast style anyway) and a bright young point guard, clean up the image of the team by dumping Wallace and Patterson without sacrificing wins (Van Horn, Williams, Sweetney and Mutombo should at least be able to duplicate the wins Wallace and Patterson are giving the team), and still have enough cap room in 2005 to start reloading the team?

For the Knicks, the addition of Wallace, a superstar talent with a NDBL head, would be another major coup. Thomas believes he can get through to Wallace, and combined with Marbury, Houston and Kurt Thomas, the Knicks would have enough talent to compete with any team in the East.

The other scenario with Cleveland (Van Horn, Williams and Sweetney for Ilgauskas and Miles) makes plenty of sense for the Cavs, though you wonder if Thomas would just be better off swapping Williams and Othella Harrington for Miles (sources claim the Thomas turned that deal down on Tuesday). Ilgauskas, paired with Mutombo, would give the Knicks their best low-post scoring option since Patrick Ewing. Concerns about Ilgauskas' feet, poor defense and lumbering approach are issues. But the ability to platoon Ilgauskas, Mutombo and Thomas should give Don Chaney one of the better front lines in the league. Thomas has also been a fan of Miles for a while. He gives them that long, athletic presence at forward that Thomas has been craving.

Why would the Cavs do it? They're into surrounding LeBron James with the "right" players and this trade makes some sense. Van Horn's ability to play multiple positions and to stretch the defense are an asset, as is his unselfish style of play. He has just one year more on his contract than Ilgauskas, and given the Cavs' current cap projections, shouldn't hinder what they're trying to do.

Williams would immediately be the best full-time point guard on the team's roster, and Sweetney gives the Cavs more muscle in the paint. Cap wise, the Cavs would actually shave about $2 million off the cap for this season. Next year, the presence of Van Horn, Sweetney and Williams would add around $3 million to the cap assuming the team lets Miles go without compensation. In 2005-06, the Cavs would still be looking at roughly $10 million in cap room, even with Van Horn on board. The deal doesn't quite work as well as the Portland one, but it's still in the realm of possibility.

That Sheed deal can still happen!


[Edited by - HARDCOREKNICKSFAN on 01/20/2004 19:02:36]
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
fishmike
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1/20/2004  7:17 PM
hey... maybe I am wrong but I have seen enough of Wallace and his play to never want him on my team. If Isiah can get through to him and get him playing at a high level great, but to me trading KVH, Sweetney, Frank and Deke for Wallace and Patterson is awefull. It leaves us with a nasty glut of wing players with terrible contract in Penny, Anderson and Patterson all bench players.

Also, Mark Aguire is RAVING about Sweetney and says he's got a great future.

I have no problem with trading KVH or anyone but to me thats a panic move.

Lets deal from a position of strength. We've won 4 in a row. Our next 6 are home vs. Mia, San and Pho and away vs. Hou, Atl and Bos. I think we get 4 of 6 but at the worst go .500.

Think of KVH as a commodity and not a burden. I'm not worried about getting "stuck" with a 6'10 SF averaging 17/7 as the team's 3rd option.

no panic moves.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
MaTT4281
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1/20/2004  7:29 PM
Posted by fishmike:

hey... maybe I am wrong but I have seen enough of Wallace and his play to never want him on my team. If Isiah can get through to him and get him playing at a high level great, but to me trading KVH, Sweetney, Frank and Deke for Wallace and Patterson is awefull. It leaves us with a nasty glut of wing players with terrible contract in Penny, Anderson and Patterson all bench players.

Also, Mark Aguire is RAVING about Sweetney and says he's got a great future.

I have no problem with trading KVH or anyone but to me thats a panic move.

Lets deal from a position of strength. We've won 4 in a row. Our next 6 are home vs. Mia, San and Pho and away vs. Hou, Atl and Bos. I think we get 4 of 6 but at the worst go .500.

Think of KVH as a commodity and not a burden. I'm not worried about getting "stuck" with a 6'10 SF averaging 17/7 as the team's 3rd option.

no panic moves.

Well put, We dont need anymore guards, or a head case like rasheed. KVH is doing great (with the exception of yesturday vs TOR) and we should atleast keep him until right b4 the deadline (if we do end up making a move)
GoNyGoNyGo
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1/20/2004  7:31 PM
Compare Wallace vs. KVH

Outside shot: KVH
Inside game: Wallace
passing: wallace?
Rebounding: KVH! (check the stats!)
defense: Wallace
Mental health: KVH
Speed: Wallace
Age: KVH (1 year younger)
upside: Wallace (would get doubled in the POST opening up shots for H20 and Marbry)


Rahim Vs. KVH

Outside shot: KVH
Inside game: SAR
passing: KVH
rebounding: SAR
defense: SAR
Mental health: SAR - this is really a tossup as SAR has not won ever.
Speed: KVH
Age: SAR (1 year younger)
upside: SAR (see Wallace upside)

SAR is the best of the 3, but he is not really a match for NY as far as position goes. He is a PF. Wallace could play C/SF/PF which makes him a better fit, but he is not as good AT SF as KVH is. He could play alot of C, which would give us a nice team of Star,H20, Penny, KT and Weedace. That is pretty tough in the east but lacks an outside game beyond Houston's

In any case, trading KVh would leave NY a bit short at SF and their outside shooting would suffersome. A perimeter team cannot afford that. Plus, I have seen that KVH can run with marbury, that is a big plus in his book.

In my final analysis, KVh is playing very well. I think NY would be better off trading for a backup 4-5 that can play D and is athletic and active. the guy I still want is Swift, but that would be tough. Wilcox may be a good fit. NY needs to steal a guy still onhis rookie contract for FWill and Harrington.

Come to think of it, Fwill would be a good player for Memphis. JWill is their starter but Watson has not done much as the backup. Fwill would be good there and may push Jwill. Harrington is a solid palyer that would back up Gasol and Wright.
GoNyGoNyGo
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1/21/2004  8:29 AM
The more I think about it, the more I think Isiah will trade KVH. Just a gut feeling.
smallz
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1/21/2004  1:52 PM
KVH is playing fine leave him alone. I think trading him 4 wallace is a HUGE mistake. Wallace is not the kind of player we need. He will mess up chemistry and probably get suspended every month. Kurt Thomas is playin like a warrior and is gettin boards 4 us. Wallace usually pops outside for a shot. KVH should stay here unless we can get artest which wont happen.
Rocky the worlds greatest fighter
what's van horn still doing here?

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