CrushAlot wrote:Is this a set up so that if the Knicks have a bad season you can repost this with an I told you so?

seems like it to me.

Paladin55 wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:I agree somewhat that this team is going nowhere unless Gallo AND Randolph have breakout seasons. I dont think we should be trading assets for draft picks right now. We see what we have for 2 years then we have to decide to pay Gallo and/or Randolph. We do need to try to move Amare ASAP. Guy is 3 years away from being albatross status.

He used the word "pathetic," by the way. I believe he has spent too much time in deep freeze.

You are not this foolish:

Right now the Knicks need to trade whatever assets they have left for draft picks. I believe this is the best way forward.

Strip our assets, wait for draft picks we don't have yet to grow into championship level players?

This thread is sheer madness.

subzero0 wrote:The difference here is that many of you are talking about just making the playoff and that you guys believe is progress. But I am telling you it is not. It really is only doing more damage than good. To build a team that will challenge for a championship year after year you have to have start with a good foundation. You try to get a top lottery pick. After you get the lottery pick you build around that player with free agency, doing this allows you to keep your costs down and attract the free agents. What we are seeing this summer is akin to the Layden years where we continually went to the playoffs only to be ousted each year. Some of the time not even going to the playoffs. I realize that this plan is scary because if we don't hit our mark and get that top lottery player than we have to scrap everything and try again. That is true, but it is also necessary to build a championship dynasty. This Knicks roster is not as good as some of you guys think it is. I dont see this team beating many other NBA teams. I am sorry if you disagree but this is my opinion.

1. We didn't go to the playoffs under Layden, unless you consider the transition to Layden after the 99 Finals as being Layden's team. Layden's team was really from 2001-2003.

2. You are making this "all we'll be doing is making the playoffs" argument and yet you advocate Zach Randolph and Jamal Crawford as being part of the roster. As if they were going to lead us to the Finals. Please.

3. The plan was to have flexibility. We have that. End of story.

nychamp wrote:

subzero0 wrote:The difference here is that many of you are talking about just making the playoff and that you guys believe is progress. But I am telling you it is not. It really is only doing more damage than good. To build a team that will challenge for a championship year after year you have to have start with a good foundation. You try to get a top lottery pick. After you get the lottery pick you build around that player with free agency, doing this allows you to keep your costs down and attract the free agents. What we are seeing this summer is akin to the Layden years where we continually went to the playoffs only to be ousted each year. Some of the time not even going to the playoffs. I realize that this plan is scary because if we don't hit our mark and get that top lottery player than we have to scrap everything and try again. That is true, but it is also necessary to build a championship dynasty. This Knicks roster is not as good as some of you guys think it is. I dont see this team beating many other NBA teams. I am sorry if you disagree but this is my opinion.

I hear you but the difference is that this Knicks team is not locked in to anyone besides amare. Meantime we watch to see if any of the young players show significant progress, hopefully gallo and randolph. Felton, too. But still not banking on it. Then after a year, grab another (possibly v. significant) piece. With a, for example, Carmelo next summer added to our team we can then realistically talk about the conference finals, again assuming some decent progress from most of all Felton but then Gallo and randolph.
Thing is the team is not locked down. But you can't expect a one year turnaround. The important thing is not to preclude improvement in the future, which Donnie is doing a good job of. Moves can be made. In the meantime (this next season), try to win some games.
Yet and still, the team next year could be as good as a 45-48 win team (best possible upside, IMO. More likely .500 and a 7th seed). So you can't look at it as another totally pathetic season with no outlet to success.

I hope you're right nychamp, I hope your right.

Childs2Dudley wrote:

subzero0 wrote:

Childs2Dudley wrote:

subzero0 wrote:The difference here is that many of you are talking about just making the playoff and that you guys believe is progress. But I am telling you it is not. It really is only doing more damage than good. To build a team that will challenge for a championship year after year you have to have start with a good foundation. You try to get a top lottery pick. After you get the lottery pick you build around that player with free agency, doing this allows you to keep your costs down and attract the free agents. What we are seeing this summer is akin to the Layden years where we continually went to the playoffs only to be ousted each year. Some of the time not even going to the playoffs. I realize that this plan is scary because if we don't hit our mark and get that top lottery player than we have to scrap everything and try again. That is true, but it is also necessary to build a championship dynasty. This Knicks roster is not as good as some of you guys think it is. I dont see this team beating many other NBA teams. I am sorry if you disagree but this is my opinion.

1. We didn't go to the playoffs under Layden, unless you consider the transition to Layden after the 99 Finals as being Layden's team. Layden's team was really from 2001-2003.

2. You are making this "all we'll be doing is making the playoffs" argument and yet you advocate Zach Randolph and Jamal Crawford as being part of the roster. As if they were going to lead us to the Finals. Please.

3. The plan was to have flexibility. We have that. End of story.

I have stated that I disagreed with the trades of Zach Randolph and Jamal Crawford because they were not getting any picks in return. Trading those two players in and of themselves never has mattered to me. The fact remains though that without getting picks back for those players we have made some serious errors.

Very plainly, I had no problem with trading away those players as long as we were getting picks back in return. Just trading them for cap space, trading down AFAIK, is always a bad move.

The cap space got us the players we have today.

Zach Randolph was traded for Quentin Richardson after we traded him. Crawford was dealt for Speedy Claxton.

We got back what they were worth and still are worth. Nobody was giving 1st round picks for garbage contracts. Nobody.

Anthony Randolph, Ronny Turiaf, Kelena Azubuike, Amar'e Stoudemire, Raymond Felton, Timofey Mozgov > Randolph, Crawford, & Jeffries.

That's the way I look at it. And is there really any other way to look at it?

Is Anthony Randolph, Ronny Turiaf, Kelena Azubuike, Amar'e Stoudemire, Raymond Felton, and Timofey Mozgov going to make us a championship dynasty? Not a chance. Would a top level draft pick and consequentially a few free agents make us a championship dynasty? Possibly. That is the way I look at it.

And this winning a championship through tanking is an exaggerated myth anyways- it'd down to freak luck if it's ever successful:

a) You have to actually be terrible enough to be in with a chance of landing a top pick (and it's harder than you think- despite how bad we were we seemed to always end up with pick 8- I don't understand how there could be 7 teams that played worse than we did!)
b) You actually have to get lucky to get the top 1 or 2 picks even if you do suck all season long, and pray another team doesn't leap over you in the lottery
c) You then have to be lucky that that years draft actually contains a franchise changing talent- not always the case
d) You have to get lucky that you do actually determine correctly who is the franchise changing talent (it seems to be rare that the number 1 pick turns out to be the best player)
e) You have to get lucky that that player then actually achieves their potential and doesn't succum to injury (hello Greg Oden- for years people said we should tank to get a high pick in the Greg Oden draft)
f) Even against all those odds, you then have to hope you can somehow build the right team around them before their contract is up, and as Cleveland showed it's not as easy as you think.

Please tell me how the current Lakers team built through the draft? Kobe doesn't count- he was a mid first round pick that was traded for Vlade Divac. Was that Detroit team built through your tanking- draft strategy? Fair enough the Spurs did it, but how rare is a Tim Duncan calibre of player?

And putting all of that aside- for goodness sake, we've got Gallo and Randolph- lottery level talent- just pretend we selected both of them in the draft if it makes any differnce to you- what it boils down to is whether they can reach their potential, which is what your strategy of tanking and building through the lottery hinges on anyway.

Finestrg wrote:"Pathetic" roster? You're kidding me right? What are you talking about my dude? Break it down with me:

--Amar'e's one of the best bigs in the league---I expect somewhere in the vicinity of 22-25/9/1.5 as far as production goes. As long as he supplies that he's worth every penny not to mention he was signed with the intention of making us more attractive in the hopes of luring LeBron James. For that reason alone, I liked and agreed with the signing. Again money well spent..It didn't work out as this dude LeBron hitched his wagon to D Wade/Bosh..Nothing we can do about that now but move forward with Amar'e.. Better than Lee, better than Carlos Boozer, agruably better than Chris Bosh..An anchor right in his prime.

--Randolph's only 20-21 years old and ready for the next step--Lee overachieved beyond anyone's expectations here and was great for us but this kid's potential is through the damn roof..Over 6 years younger than Lee with as high a ceiling as any young player in the game. A guy that despite injuries & a weird relationship with Don Nelson has already proved he can excel at this level, albeit with inconsistent playing time..As good as Lee is, this kid was the jewel of that trade as far as I'm concerned. Averaged almost 12/6.5/1.6 in only 22 minutes last year. What does he do with 30-35 mins a game? I'm looking forward to him finally getting that opportunity so we can find out. Should be scary. Favorable contract too, still on his rookie deal. This kid along with Amar'e has the makings of a very powerful 1-2 combination up front..

--Azubukie's a starting 2 in the NBA when healthy. No doubt in my mind. Compares very favorably to Raja Bell..Right in his prime. I'm excited he was included in the deal. If for some reason he doesn't work out though, he comes right off the books.

--Turiaf's one of the better reserve bigs in the game. Favorable contract with this guy as well. Only something like 4M this year, 4.3M next year. Can definitely be moved in a trade if need be. A much better alternative over Jared Jeffries. Kinda reminds me of Adonal Foyle. Remember that guy? 6'10", wide, big body/space eater that could block a shot or 2--only Turiaf's better than Foyle imo, even more skilled, and he's right in his prime. Maybe something closer to Kendrick Perkins and we all know how important that guy is to the Celtics...I actually wanted this guy instead of Lee with that 30th pick a few years back. Obviously I would've been proven wrong as Lee blew up into an all-star but I still like & have a lot of respect for Turiaf.

--Raymond Felton may not be D-Will or CP3 but he's very skilled and right on his prime. Very favorable contract-3 yr deal, only the first 2 guaranteed from what I understand. Most talented PG we've had in NY since Marbury and I can't even remember before that (Derek Harper, Jackson/Rod Strickland??). HUGE upgrade over what we've been working with in recent years. And we got him on our terms--very good signing by Donnie w/o going overboard.

--Drafted a young shooter in Rautins. I didn't love the pick --in fact, I wouldn't mind seeing the Knicks opting to go with one of the better undrafted SL players out there instead-- but he could still wind up being a contributor..JJ Redick, Matt Carroll made it in the NBA which tells me this kid could as well.

--Landry Fields has been a very pleasant surprise. Might wind up being the steal of the draft. Dude's got rotation player written all over him. Solid pick--I give the team a lot of credit, they saw something in this kid that no one else out there did.

--Jerome Jordan obviously needs work and most likely goes immediately to Reno to start his development process but I like that they fact that they we were proactive in trying to address the lack-of-height issue. They spend 1M on a 7' with good upside. Good move. Worth the inventment..

--Timo Mozgov looks like a project. A little more expensive project when compared to Jerome Jordan but like a few of the other components they acquired, his contract is quite favorable so we'll see. Looks like there might be some nice potential here..

Now add to that the 4 capable returning players, Gallinari, Chandler, Toney Douglas & Billy Walker---4 solid contributors, all of which have considerable upside themselves and contracts that aren't terrible. Curry comes off the books at the end of the year and with a little finagling, the thought is that we'll have close to a max salary slot open for next year for Carmelo Anthony, CP3 perhaps or something else... The salary cap is in order moving forward, the players we got all compliment each other very well on paper, there's legit star power with Amar'e, potential all-star players in Randolph, Felton, Gallo and Chandler (esp. when you consider the type of up-tempo game Mike wants to play), quality/interchangable depth and a lot of youth on the roster which is always a good thing and a lot of talent that could very easily be moved in possible trades. Is it LeBron & Bosh or LeBron/Amar'e? Of course not and it's a little disappointing but after the dust settled, what we suddenly do have is a team that was put together very smartly very quick. I don't know about Subzero but to me, the outlook hasn't been this bright around here in a long time. I definitely feel like we're finally back on track here..Sub titled his thread 'the lonterm plan.' Certainly looks like the makings of a very good long-term plan to me. For once I feel like you can use the word 'stability' and the Knicks in the same sentence..

Nice analysis. Might want to add that both Gallo and Randoph have "Star" potential. Both can be very special in their own ways.