YOu had a few cities that it was huge in but no much after. Cincy Royals were a small market even then. They traded Oscar before they moved to be the "Kansas city-omaha" Kings.

Earl was right, he was the Barkley/Ewing of his day and his legend is in his stats. At 32 he was breaking down as most players did at that age.

Oscar had the distinction of being the best player on the 1960 gold winning team with Jerry West. That really gave him the national recognition and prestige. Winning as an Amateur against the Red Army team made you a national hero. Being black and a hero bought with it many challages. He handled the responsabilty of being a black hero with disctiction and class as very young man. By the age of 22 he had set all kinds of records (14 national records) in college, was the national player of the year (the award since 1998 is in his name!)all while treated on many road trips as a second class citizen not allowed in some hotels or restaurants.

He did not want to be traded.

He was president of the players association who bought up the first anti-trust lawsuit against the league that was known as the landmark "oscar robertson suite" and six years later lead to the merger of the ABA-NBA and free agency as we know it.

Lebron is a self serving whore.

As far as his on basketbal legacy we have to see what Lebron does.

Lebron will make tons of money and maybe one day do things to help the world, but even at 25 years old he has yet to even carry Oscars jockstrap in the game of Life. They both have gold metals but Oscar did it in a time that took that years college seniors to play against the worlds best at that time. Not some Dream team scenario.

Lebron did not have to face racial issues that Oscar had to. Does that make Lebron a worse man? Great men are made when they are faced with adversity. I say "Men" which is differnt than "athlete".

How you handle adversity is what makes a man great. Lebron vs. Oscar is a no brainer. Oscar is a great man and a great athlete. Lebron is a great athlete but a self serving whore of a man.

Time will tell. He might just grow up and do good with his money and fame. But he got a long way to go before catching up with oscar.

Somtimes you don't need a championship for a legacy to be installed. Oscars was long established before he got with Kareem. IM glad for him he got to experience it.

I doubt he see it as the most important thing in his life.

Lebron "winning" is all relative.

Lebron is no Oscar!

Uptown wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:

Uptown wrote:
Trade or no trade, what I'm getting at is Oscar was the best player in the world at the time and he didn't win any rings until he joined Kareem. To this day, Oscar is still regarded in some realms as the best ever. The fact that he didn't get a ring until he joined an already established champion in Kareem, didn't tarnish his place in history in peoples eyes.

Maybe people should put less emphasis on the number of rings a player wins and more on the integrity of his game. Oscar and West, for example, were far better players than their lone championships would imply. That says more about the state of the league back then (Celtics dynasty, better parity across the league, etc) than it does about their character and abilities.

One thing I've never heard Oscar called is cowardly.

I agree that we should put less emphasis on the number of championships a player is able to win. The stars literally have to align, the right circumstances, the state of the league, etc. The hardships, racism, etc that Oscar suffered from is well documented. In no way am I trying to compare Oscar the man to Lebron. I'm talking about Oscar the basketball player, and the fact that I read an article that called Lebron a bigger, badder version of Pippen which I disagree with.

As far as Lebron beong called a coward, well, I guess that depends on point of view. Is he a coward because he left Cleve? Or is he a coward because he went o Miami?

I think the Big O and Magic are the best comparison of his talents.

Here's where I stand on LeBron's character. In discussing where we thought he'd go with my cousin, we decided there were several good options for him, but which he would chose depended on his character. I thought NY was his best option. I thought it posed the best combination of winnability, grand stage, marketability and immortality. I thought Chi was next best but I couldn't imagine anyone wanting to live in MJ's shadow. I knew he had to get out of Cleveland, in the same way KG had to get out of Minny. The place I had the hardest time conceiving for him was Miami. I just could not imagine this guy who wants to be compared with Kobe, MJ and all the greatest of all time taking the easy way out and riding the coattails of another champion, on that champion's team. It just flew too much in the face of all his own King/witness/greatest hype to not even be the best player on his team (always one ring behind him, couldn't get it done without him, etc).

So it's not that I'll always be bitter towards him, it's just that he disappointed me -- not as a fan of the Knicks, but of what I thought his character was. I thought he'd want to be the man, I thought he'd want his own team and his own town. I thought he was bigger than life. And I've never even been his biggest fan. I like Kobe better. But still, I thought more of him than he does of himself, and I'm sad I bought into his hype, and sad he squandered so much credibility in pursuit of ring-bling. He revealed himself as scared and shallow, IMO.

Uptown wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:

Uptown wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:

Uptown wrote:
Trade or no trade, what I'm getting at is Oscar was the best player in the world at the time and he didn't win any rings until he joined Kareem. To this day, Oscar is still regarded in some realms as the best ever. The fact that he didn't get a ring until he joined an already established champion in Kareem, didn't tarnish his place in history in peoples eyes.

Maybe people should put less emphasis on the number of rings a player wins and more on the integrity of his game. Oscar and West, for example, were far better players than their lone championships would imply. That says more about the state of the league back then (Celtics dynasty, better parity across the league, etc) than it does about their character and abilities.

One thing I've never heard Oscar called is cowardly.

I agree that we should put less emphasis on the number of championships a player is able to win. The stars literally have to align, the right circumstances, the state of the league, etc. The hardships, racism, etc that Oscar suffered from is well documented. In no way am I trying to compare Oscar the man to Lebron. I'm talking about Oscar the basketball player, and the fact that I read an article that called Lebron a bigger, badder version of Pippen which I disagree with.

As far as Lebron beong called a coward, well, I guess that depends on point of view. Is he a coward because he left Cleve? Or is he a coward because he went o Miami?

I think the Big O and Magic are the best comparison of his talents.

Here's where I stand on LeBron's character. In discussing where we thought he'd go with my cousin, we decided there were several good options for him, but which he would chose depended on his character. I thought NY was his best option. I thought it posed the best combination of winnability, grand stage, marketability and immortality. I thought Chi was next best but I couldn't imagine anyone wanting to live in MJ's shadow. I knew he had to get out of Cleveland, in the same way KG had to get out of Minny. The place I had the hardest time conceiving for him was Miami. I just could not imagine this guy who wants to be compared with Kobe, MJ and all the greatest of all time taking the easy way out and riding the coattails of another champion, on that champion's team. It just flew too much in the face of all his own King/witness/greatest hype to not even be the best player on his team (always one ring behind him, couldn't get it done without him, etc).

So it's not that I'll always be bitter towards him, it's just that he disappointed me -- not as a fan of the Knicks, but of what I thought his character was. I thought he'd want to be the man, I thought he'd want his own team and his own town. I thought he was bigger than life. And I've never even been his biggest fan. I like Kobe better. But still, I thought more of him than he does of himself, and I'm sad I bought into his hype, and sad he squandered so much credibility in pursuit of ring-bling. He revealed himself as scared and shallow, IMO.

Everything you said here are actually my feelings too. I felt Cleveland or NY would be his best options. Stay in Cleveland and win at home (cant go wrong there) or go to NY, become the face of the franchise, king of the city and if he could win a 'Ship' here, his legacy would have been off the charts. I also thought Miami would have been he worse option considering it is already Wades team and his county.

Wade and Lebron are both number 1 options. I couldn't see Isiah Thomas throwing his hands up after losing to the Celts in 87 and trying to leave the Pistons to go join his buddy Magic in L.A. Or Michael wanting to team up with Bird after losing to the Pistons all those years. Hell, Kobe damn near drove Shaq to the airport when he was traded to the Heat. So I agree that Lebron may have have doused the flames of those discussions of who's better Kobe or Lebron? Lebron and MJ? etc...

The purpose of this thread however was never to compare Lebron the man to Oscar the man. The only reason I brought up Oscar was because he was the man in Cincy and he didnt win any rings. He didnt become a champion until he joined Kareem (Lew Alcinder) who was already the man in his own town. Despite this, Oscar still remains in the arguement for the greatest ever eventhough he couldn't win a ring with his own sidekick, similar to Jordan who had Pippen, or Bird who had McHale etc. If Lebron wins several rings with Wade, does this automatically take him out of the discussion? Eventhough I disagree with Lebrons decision, he is still one of the most talented players I have ever seen, joining Wade does nothing to take that away from him.

to me it does. Simply because it's a watered down league with 30 teams. Not the 17 that were in existence during Oscar's time. It would just not be as impressive to me when compared to what some of the other greats were able to do against better competition.

Bippity10 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:

Uptown wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:

Uptown wrote:
Trade or no trade, what I'm getting at is Oscar was the best player in the world at the time and he didn't win any rings until he joined Kareem. To this day, Oscar is still regarded in some realms as the best ever. The fact that he didn't get a ring until he joined an already established champion in Kareem, didn't tarnish his place in history in peoples eyes.

Maybe people should put less emphasis on the number of rings a player wins and more on the integrity of his game. Oscar and West, for example, were far better players than their lone championships would imply. That says more about the state of the league back then (Celtics dynasty, better parity across the league, etc) than it does about their character and abilities.

One thing I've never heard Oscar called is cowardly.

I agree that we should put less emphasis on the number of championships a player is able to win. The stars literally have to align, the right circumstances, the state of the league, etc. The hardships, racism, etc that Oscar suffered from is well documented. In no way am I trying to compare Oscar the man to Lebron. I'm talking about Oscar the basketball player, and the fact that I read an article that called Lebron a bigger, badder version of Pippen which I disagree with.

As far as Lebron beong called a coward, well, I guess that depends on point of view. Is he a coward because he left Cleve? Or is he a coward because he went o Miami?

I think the Big O and Magic are the best comparison of his talents.

Here's where I stand on LeBron's character. In discussing where we thought he'd go with my cousin, we decided there were several good options for him, but which he would chose depended on his character. I thought NY was his best option. I thought it posed the best combination of winnability, grand stage, marketability and immortality. I thought Chi was next best but I couldn't imagine anyone wanting to live in MJ's shadow. I knew he had to get out of Cleveland, in the same way KG had to get out of Minny. The place I had the hardest time conceiving for him was Miami. I just could not imagine this guy who wants to be compared with Kobe, MJ and all the greatest of all time taking the easy way out and riding the coattails of another champion, on that champion's team. It just flew too much in the face of all his own King/witness/greatest hype to not even be the best player on his team (always one ring behind him, couldn't get it done without him, etc).

So it's not that I'll always be bitter towards him, it's just that he disappointed me -- not as a fan of the Knicks, but of what I thought his character was. I thought he'd want to be the man, I thought he'd want his own team and his own town. I thought he was bigger than life. And I've never even been his biggest fan. I like Kobe better. But still, I thought more of him than he does of himself, and I'm sad I bought into his hype, and sad he squandered so much credibility in pursuit of ring-bling. He revealed himself as scared and shallow, IMO.

Everything you said here are actually my feelings too. I felt Cleveland or NY would be his best options. Stay in Cleveland and win at home (cant go wrong there) or go to NY, become the face of the franchise, king of the city and if he could win a 'Ship' here, his legacy would have been off the charts. I also thought Miami would have been he worse option considering it is already Wades team and his county.

Wade and Lebron are both number 1 options. I couldn't see Isiah Thomas throwing his hands up after losing to the Celts in 87 and trying to leave the Pistons to go join his buddy Magic in L.A. Or Michael wanting to team up with Bird after losing to the Pistons all those years. Hell, Kobe damn near drove Shaq to the airport when he was traded to the Heat. So I agree that Lebron may have have doused the flames of those discussions of who's better Kobe or Lebron? Lebron and MJ? etc...

The purpose of this thread however was never to compare Lebron the man to Oscar the man. The only reason I brought up Oscar was because he was the man in Cincy and he didnt win any rings. He didnt become a champion until he joined Kareem (Lew Alcinder) who was already the man in his own town. Despite this, Oscar still remains in the arguement for the greatest ever eventhough he couldn't win a ring with his own sidekick, similar to Jordan who had Pippen, or Bird who had McHale etc. If Lebron wins several rings with Wade, does this automatically take him out of the discussion? Eventhough I disagree with Lebrons decision, he is still one of the most talented players I have ever seen, joining Wade does nothing to take that away from him.

to me it does. Simply because it's a watered down league with 30 teams. Not the 17 that were in existence during Oscar's time. It would just not be as impressive to me when compared to what some of the other greats were able to do against better competition.

Fair enough. I kind of agree with you. I dont want to agree because I'm a big fan of Lebron the player and I wish he would have just stayed in Cleve to build his legacy but you are right, its not as impressive with Miami as it would have been with his own sidekick on his own team in his own town.

an outstanding perspective for any discussion of that era of the NBA, or pro sports for that matter

I miss Curt Flood

Uptown wrote:

Bippity10 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:

Uptown wrote:

BlueSeats wrote:

Uptown wrote:
Trade or no trade, what I'm getting at is Oscar was the best player in the world at the time and he didn't win any rings until he joined Kareem. To this day, Oscar is still regarded in some realms as the best ever. The fact that he didn't get a ring until he joined an already established champion in Kareem, didn't tarnish his place in history in peoples eyes.

Maybe people should put less emphasis on the number of rings a player wins and more on the integrity of his game. Oscar and West, for example, were far better players than their lone championships would imply. That says more about the state of the league back then (Celtics dynasty, better parity across the league, etc) than it does about their character and abilities.

One thing I've never heard Oscar called is cowardly.

I agree that we should put less emphasis on the number of championships a player is able to win. The stars literally have to align, the right circumstances, the state of the league, etc. The hardships, racism, etc that Oscar suffered from is well documented. In no way am I trying to compare Oscar the man to Lebron. I'm talking about Oscar the basketball player, and the fact that I read an article that called Lebron a bigger, badder version of Pippen which I disagree with.

As far as Lebron beong called a coward, well, I guess that depends on point of view. Is he a coward because he left Cleve? Or is he a coward because he went o Miami?

I think the Big O and Magic are the best comparison of his talents.

Here's where I stand on LeBron's character. In discussing where we thought he'd go with my cousin, we decided there were several good options for him, but which he would chose depended on his character. I thought NY was his best option. I thought it posed the best combination of winnability, grand stage, marketability and immortality. I thought Chi was next best but I couldn't imagine anyone wanting to live in MJ's shadow. I knew he had to get out of Cleveland, in the same way KG had to get out of Minny. The place I had the hardest time conceiving for him was Miami. I just could not imagine this guy who wants to be compared with Kobe, MJ and all the greatest of all time taking the easy way out and riding the coattails of another champion, on that champion's team. It just flew too much in the face of all his own King/witness/greatest hype to not even be the best player on his team (always one ring behind him, couldn't get it done without him, etc).

So it's not that I'll always be bitter towards him, it's just that he disappointed me -- not as a fan of the Knicks, but of what I thought his character was. I thought he'd want to be the man, I thought he'd want his own team and his own town. I thought he was bigger than life. And I've never even been his biggest fan. I like Kobe better. But still, I thought more of him than he does of himself, and I'm sad I bought into his hype, and sad he squandered so much credibility in pursuit of ring-bling. He revealed himself as scared and shallow, IMO.

Everything you said here are actually my feelings too. I felt Cleveland or NY would be his best options. Stay in Cleveland and win at home (cant go wrong there) or go to NY, become the face of the franchise, king of the city and if he could win a 'Ship' here, his legacy would have been off the charts. I also thought Miami would have been he worse option considering it is already Wades team and his county.

Wade and Lebron are both number 1 options. I couldn't see Isiah Thomas throwing his hands up after losing to the Celts in 87 and trying to leave the Pistons to go join his buddy Magic in L.A. Or Michael wanting to team up with Bird after losing to the Pistons all those years. Hell, Kobe damn near drove Shaq to the airport when he was traded to the Heat. So I agree that Lebron may have have doused the flames of those discussions of who's better Kobe or Lebron? Lebron and MJ? etc...

The purpose of this thread however was never to compare Lebron the man to Oscar the man. The only reason I brought up Oscar was because he was the man in Cincy and he didnt win any rings. He didnt become a champion until he joined Kareem (Lew Alcinder) who was already the man in his own town. Despite this, Oscar still remains in the arguement for the greatest ever eventhough he couldn't win a ring with his own sidekick, similar to Jordan who had Pippen, or Bird who had McHale etc. If Lebron wins several rings with Wade, does this automatically take him out of the discussion? Eventhough I disagree with Lebrons decision, he is still one of the most talented players I have ever seen, joining Wade does nothing to take that away from him.

to me it does. Simply because it's a watered down league with 30 teams. Not the 17 that were in existence during Oscar's time. It would just not be as impressive to me when compared to what some of the other greats were able to do against better competition.

Fair enough. I kind of agree with you. I dont want to agree because I'm a big fan of Lebron the player and I wish he would have just stayed in Cleve to build his legacy but you are right, its not as impressive with Miami as it would have been with his own sidekick on his own team in his own town.

Doesn't mean you have to stop being a fan of his. He's a great player and fun to watch. But I think Blueseats hit it on the head. To be considered the best you have to beat the best in my view. And if all the best are on the same team they obviously aren't beating the best. I dont' hate Lebron for this and will still enjoy watching his high flying dunks. And you should to

Cosmic wrote:

Uptown wrote:

sidsanders wrote:oscar was traded to the bucks... plus it sounded like he didnt want to leave: "Then, prior to the 1970-71 season, the Royals stunned the basketball world by trading Robertson to the Milwaukee Bucks for Flynn Robinson and Charlie Paulk. Theories attempting to explain the trade abounded. Many observers believed it was Cousy's jealousy of Robertson that led to the trade. The Big O had just broken many of Cousy's records and Cincinnati was suddenly too small for the both of them. "Whatever his reasons were," Robertson later said, "I think he was wrong and I'll never forget it." Fans up and down the Ohio River mourned."

from: http://www.nba.com/history/players/robertson_bio.html

Trade or no trade, what I'm getting at is Oscar was the best player in the world at the time and he didn't win any rings until he joined Kareem. To this day, Oscar is still regarded in some realms as the best ever. The fact that he didn't get a ring until he joined an already established champion in Kareem, didn't tarnish his place in history in peoples eyes.

Everyone needs a sidekick or needs to be a sidekick in order to succeed.

The fact that LBJ teamed up in MIA isn't what bothers me.

What bothers me is how he and the other two went about it.

You couldn't get any more self absorbed, selfish, arrogant, immature, and disrespectful to all involved in how these three went about things.

Therein lies the anger of most I would assume. It does for me.

bingo.. same for me cosmic...

sidsanders wrote:

JesseDark wrote:Slightly of topic:

Can we compare Lebron to Gary Payton and Karl Malone going to LA? I think what they did is worst cause those guys were at the of their careers and were just hoping for a ring with Kobe and Shaq.
If the big 3 can come together in Boston without all the flak then its ok for Lebron, Wade and Bosh.

chasing a title at the end of your career being bad? i dont agree, though it may depend on the player. if they demanded to be treated as they were in utah/sea/etc as prime time players, then its probably a bad thing. if they were willing to be role players to achieve a greater goal, why not? then again, i think it would suck to see marbs get a title cuz of how he has behaved in his career. i think misterearl and cosmic are right: carry yourself with class (preferably on and off court), give it your all and win/lose, folks will give you credit.

Lebron has conducted himself with class on and off the court. He has taken advantage off the free agency system.

papabear - two things

1. Lebron NEVER hinted he was coming to NYC

2. I was mistaken. Oscar was 73 years old when he won a ring

PS. Jackie Robinson died prematurely from the Branch Rickey mandate to contain his famous temper despite death threats, fan insults, media scrutiny, the near-unanimous resentment of baseball owners, the expectations of an entire race and early protests of his own team mates.

Jackie was 225 years old when he passed