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Andy Rautins and Toney Douglas
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EwingsGlass
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6/25/2010  8:22 PM
KnicksSince88 wrote:Gallo in my mind is a clear NBA starter. I don't get why hes better suited for off the bench. I think he has an all star ceiling, health is going to play a big role in whether or not he hits that ceiling

You will see a big jump in Gallo's game this offseason, now that he has a summer to actually work on things for the first time in 2 years because he doesn't have to worry about exerting all his time into taking care of his back. When you have an injury like he did, especially as a younger player, it could be a double whammy because you miss an offseason of growth and working on your game. I thought his season last year was as good as could be expected given his situation. He's going to have a normal summer now for the first time as a pro

Depends on where Lebron and Bosh play. If James is the SF and Bosh is the PF (their natural positions), then where do you play Gallo. I mean, if you move James to PG, it makes sense. Or Bosh to C (he will be fast but undersized). It really all depends on what other players we have. I am excited to see Gallo continue to develop---it really was like a rookie year, but his player efficiency ratio was below the league average last year, so he needs to continue to develop before award him any position as of right.

You know I gonna spin wit it
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BRIGGS
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6/25/2010  8:24 PM
The funny thing about Rautins--well lets forget the face that his knee was disheveled but anyone who watched him over the years--he was only a fair 3 pt shooter . He's going to have all kinds of trouble guarding in the NBA. Someone compared him to a shooter like ray Allen--Ray was a consistent 45% three point shooter in college--I don't even think Rautins shot better than 35% in first three years and they only make the shot harder in the nBA Ray was incredibly athletic and a legit 6-6 and could get his shot off. While rautins is a catch and quick release--he's going to have to get open and he'll have trouble doing that.
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KnicksSince88
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6/25/2010  8:27 PM
Vmart wrote:
TMS wrote:
Vmart wrote:I like the Rautins pick. Its a solid pick he is equivalent to a Steve Kerr type player. the perfect kick the ball out to player. He will fit in well with LeBron and people forget he average 5 assists a game.

i thought we already had a kickout 3 point shooter on the team with not so stiff legs for Lebron to play with? we also had a Derek Fisher style G in Toney Douglas who supposedly had worked hard this offseason on improving his J... so knowing that we still went & picked another 3 point shooting G even though we've had huge holes in our 2 most important areas of need for the past 2 years running? i just don't understand what the hell this organization is thinking about.


Ok fine a vujacic type of player. You can never have to many of the shooters when and if the major pieces get placed.

Rautins is really not even as good a shooter as Vujacic. Where does this thought come from that hes some dead-eye shooter. Because he had one year in college where he shot 40% from the college 3? He's an OK college 3 point shooter for his career. 37% in college for his career from 3 is hardly anything to crow about. He's an average FT shooter (76% career), a 39% shooter overall from the floor over 4 years. Where does this thought that he has this great touch? His shooting numbers don't back it up. He had one year where he shot the ball well from college range
rvwink
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6/25/2010  9:36 PM
Some have said that Toney was a better shooter than Andy over 4 years. What really matters is not who shot better during their college careers, but will be better in the future. Maybe Andy really worked hard knowing that he wanted to follow his Dad into the NBA. Its too early to judge whether Andy's senior year reflected an improvement in his shooting technique, or whether his shooting technique didn't change, and he just had an exceptional year. Actually the key information in the upcoming season, is not so much who is the better shooter, but rather who helps the Knicks win better as a point guard.

I don't sincerely believe that anyone knows the answer to that question presently. Andy is very unproven as a point guard, The guys who suggest Andy is a bust waiting to happen, do not, imo, have enough available data to make that judgment. You may have evaluated him as a shooting guard, but even Andy doesn't know what kind of a point guard he will develop into, so what makes you so smart?
CrushAlot
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6/25/2010  10:16 PM
rvwink wrote:The story of Toney Douglas last year, is that player who spent his college career playing shooting guard, committed to making himself into an NBA point guard. While he remains a work in progress, he did manage to make enough progress last year, to beat out the Knicks other two point guards, who spent years playing the point.

The people who don't like Andy Rautin's game at shooting guard, may be unaware that this year the Knicks drafted another point guard conversion project. Andy is also an intelligent player, who shoots threes about 2 percentage points more accurately than Toney, is also a good passer, is substantially taller than Toney, and is also enthusiastic about playing defense. Those that think that Andy Rautin is not a serious contender to eventually become a starter for the Knicks at some future point, are not paying close enough attention imo.

The recipe for players who will fit D'Antoni's system properly includes capable outside shooting, unselfish efficient passing, and high basketball IQ. I find it not a coincidence that the Phoenix Suns, who play similarly to the Knicks, also had an interest in Fields. The reason the Knick's two draft picks were not all that popular with most of the assorted draft guru's is because they are being hand picked to have the attributes that Mike prizes. So who knows more about which players will fit well in the Knick's system, the Draft Guru's, or Mike D'Antoni? If you think the Draft Express knows more about what players will fit better in the Knicks system, than Mike D'Antoni, think again.


I cannot speak for anyone else but I find the posters on this forum to be well informed, intelligent fans. If I were to guess, I think you would have a hard time finding someone that posts here who wasn't aware of last years draft and Toney Douglas's situation. I think there are some very good reasons to be upset with the pick. The first is that there were some players with upside that filled positions of need for the Knicks. This draft was one of the best big man drafts that I can remember. Some very highly rated guys fell to the Knicks at 38. The taking of Rautins to me is just more of the same type of mistakes that the franchise has made the past few years in the draft. Rautins is a low maintenance, low upside guy. He doen't fill the need for a big guy, shot blocker or defensive presence. He doesn't have the potential of a Stevenson or Warren. He wasn't even projected to be picked in the second round. How should a fan feel when the team he roots for constantly botches chances to improve? How should a fan feel when the team he roots for selects a guy that could have been a summer league invite without wasting a pick? I also think the Rautins pick was the better of the two. I think there is a lot of Scott Layden in the D'Antoni/Walsh team. I don't think you can go into the second round of a draft and select guys with the most important prerequisite being that they are mature, and have character. At some point talent, upside, and team needs need to come into play.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
iSergio
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6/25/2010  10:21 PM
I'll be VERY happy if Andy Rautins has a Steve Kerr career.
CrushAlot
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6/25/2010  10:26 PM
iSergio wrote:I'll be VERY happy if Andy Rautins has a Steve Kerr career.

He might be an exec but I don't see him making it as a player.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
KnicksSince88
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6/25/2010  10:29 PM
I was just looking at Steve Kerr's college stats. The one year during his career that they had the 3 point line in college, his senior year, he shot 57% from downtown (114 for 199). Just sick. Kerr literally could do just about nothing else except shoot from range when he was wide open, but he made a career off that skill because he was EXCEEDINLY good at it. Rautins is not good enough a shooter to stick around the league based solely on his shooting
Paladin55
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6/26/2010  8:26 AM
rvwink wrote:Some have said that Toney was a better shooter than Andy over 4 years. What really matters is not who shot better during their college careers, but will be better in the future. Maybe Andy really worked hard knowing that he wanted to follow his Dad into the NBA. Its too early to judge whether Andy's senior year reflected an improvement in his shooting technique, or whether his shooting technique didn't change, and he just had an exceptional year.

Significant increases in his downtown % as well as his FT% and my impression that he also seemed a bit stronger lead me to believe that physical maturity and simple practice increased his efficiency as a shooter.

Both Rautins and Fields had their best seasons as seniors. I posted before and after photos of Fields somewhere on UK showing how much stronger and mature he looks, and I expect that comparing Rautins as a freshman with what he looks like now will also show a significant change.

I don't see Fields and Rautins as being 35 MPG starters in their careers, but I do see them as 15-25 MPG rotational players who can contribute in different ways.

I agree with the folks who say we should have been more aggressive going after big men and was surprised by our picks, but I am still looking forward to seeing how they play and how they can fit in.

Picking up Jordan, who some wanted at the 38/39 makes things a bit better.

Why don't folks just imagine that we drafted Jordan at 38, Fields at 39, and then picked up Rautins after the draft?

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Marv
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6/26/2010  9:15 AM
Paladin55 wrote:
rvwink wrote:Some have said that Toney was a better shooter than Andy over 4 years. What really matters is not who shot better during their college careers, but will be better in the future. Maybe Andy really worked hard knowing that he wanted to follow his Dad into the NBA. Its too early to judge whether Andy's senior year reflected an improvement in his shooting technique, or whether his shooting technique didn't change, and he just had an exceptional year.

Significant increases in his downtown % as well as his FT% and my impression that he also seemed a bit stronger lead me to believe that physical maturity and simple practice increased his efficiency as a shooter.

Both Rautins and Fields had their best seasons as seniors. I posted before and after photos of Fields somewhere on UK showing how much stronger and mature he looks, and I expect that comparing Rautins as a freshman with what he looks like now will also show a significant change.

I don't see Fields and Rautins as being 35 MPG starters in their careers, but I do see them as 15-25 MPG rotational players who can contribute in different ways.

I agree with the folks who say we should have been more aggressive going after big men and was surprised by our picks, but I am still looking forward to seeing how they play and how they can fit in.

Picking up Jordan, who some wanted at the 38/39 makes things a bit better.

Why don't folks just imagine that we drafted Jordan at 38, Fields at 39, and then picked up Rautins after the draft?

because we paid down some cap space for that extra pick. so somewhere rautins was deemed important enough to give up that additional space for.
martin
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6/26/2010  9:33 AM
Marv wrote:
Paladin55 wrote:
rvwink wrote:Some have said that Toney was a better shooter than Andy over 4 years. What really matters is not who shot better during their college careers, but will be better in the future. Maybe Andy really worked hard knowing that he wanted to follow his Dad into the NBA. Its too early to judge whether Andy's senior year reflected an improvement in his shooting technique, or whether his shooting technique didn't change, and he just had an exceptional year.

Significant increases in his downtown % as well as his FT% and my impression that he also seemed a bit stronger lead me to believe that physical maturity and simple practice increased his efficiency as a shooter.

Both Rautins and Fields had their best seasons as seniors. I posted before and after photos of Fields somewhere on UK showing how much stronger and mature he looks, and I expect that comparing Rautins as a freshman with what he looks like now will also show a significant change.

I don't see Fields and Rautins as being 35 MPG starters in their careers, but I do see them as 15-25 MPG rotational players who can contribute in different ways.

I agree with the folks who say we should have been more aggressive going after big men and was surprised by our picks, but I am still looking forward to seeing how they play and how they can fit in.

Picking up Jordan, who some wanted at the 38/39 makes things a bit better.

Why don't folks just imagine that we drafted Jordan at 38, Fields at 39, and then picked up Rautins after the draft?

because we paid down some cap space for that extra pick. so somewhere rautins was deemed important enough to give up that additional space for.

i don't get what you just said. Second round picks do not take extra cap space until they are signed.

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Marv
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6/26/2010  9:40 AM
martin wrote:
Marv wrote:
Paladin55 wrote:
rvwink wrote:Some have said that Toney was a better shooter than Andy over 4 years. What really matters is not who shot better during their college careers, but will be better in the future. Maybe Andy really worked hard knowing that he wanted to follow his Dad into the NBA. Its too early to judge whether Andy's senior year reflected an improvement in his shooting technique, or whether his shooting technique didn't change, and he just had an exceptional year.

Significant increases in his downtown % as well as his FT% and my impression that he also seemed a bit stronger lead me to believe that physical maturity and simple practice increased his efficiency as a shooter.

Both Rautins and Fields had their best seasons as seniors. I posted before and after photos of Fields somewhere on UK showing how much stronger and mature he looks, and I expect that comparing Rautins as a freshman with what he looks like now will also show a significant change.

I don't see Fields and Rautins as being 35 MPG starters in their careers, but I do see them as 15-25 MPG rotational players who can contribute in different ways.

I agree with the folks who say we should have been more aggressive going after big men and was surprised by our picks, but I am still looking forward to seeing how they play and how they can fit in.

Picking up Jordan, who some wanted at the 38/39 makes things a bit better.

Why don't folks just imagine that we drafted Jordan at 38, Fields at 39, and then picked up Rautins after the draft?

because we paid down some cap space for that extra pick. so somewhere rautins was deemed important enough to give up that additional space for.

i don't get what you just said. Second round picks do not take extra cap space until they are signed.

The Knicks surrendered $1 million in the pending trade for Jordan, a 23-year-old senior with a 7-foot-6 wingspan who averaged 15.4 points and 9.1 rebounds for Tulsa.

Source: http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nba/news/story?id=5327247

doesn't that $1M come off the capspace?
crzymdups
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6/26/2010  9:49 AM
@marv, no, it doesn't.
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Marv
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6/26/2010  9:51 AM
crzymdups wrote:@marv, no, it doesn't.

interesting. is there a limit on how much teams can spend for picks then?
martin
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6/26/2010  9:52 AM
Marv wrote:
crzymdups wrote:@marv, no, it doesn't.

interesting. is there a limit on how much teams can spend for picks then?

$3M. I think that is the total amount of cash 2 different teams can exchange in trades, whether for picks or just encouragement.

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Marv
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6/26/2010  9:59 AM
martin wrote:
Marv wrote:
crzymdups wrote:@marv, no, it doesn't.

interesting. is there a limit on how much teams can spend for picks then?

$3M. I think that is the total amount of cash 2 different teams can exchange in trades, whether for picks or just encouragement.

and is that $3M the total aggregate amount allowed for any one team in a season? or is a team only allowed one such transaction?

the point i'm getting at naturally is if a rich team with open roster spots like ny was allowed to, why wouldn’t they buy up every early 2nd round pick they could?
martin
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6/26/2010  10:07 AM
Marv wrote:
martin wrote:
Marv wrote:
crzymdups wrote:@marv, no, it doesn't.

interesting. is there a limit on how much teams can spend for picks then?

$3M. I think that is the total amount of cash 2 different teams can exchange in trades, whether for picks or just encouragement.

and is that $3M the total aggregate amount allowed for any one team in a season? or is a team only allowed one such transaction?

the point i'm getting at naturally is if a rich team with open roster spots like ny was allowed to, why wouldn’t they buy up every early 2nd round pick they could?

i think it is per transaction but not 100% on that.

... and you are making $3M sound like monopoly money

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Marv
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6/26/2010  10:09 AM
martin wrote:
Marv wrote:
martin wrote:
Marv wrote:
crzymdups wrote:@marv, no, it doesn't.

interesting. is there a limit on how much teams can spend for picks then?

$3M. I think that is the total amount of cash 2 different teams can exchange in trades, whether for picks or just encouragement.

and is that $3M the total aggregate amount allowed for any one team in a season? or is a team only allowed one such transaction?

the point i'm getting at naturally is if a rich team with open roster spots like ny was allowed to, why wouldn’t they buy up every early 2nd round pick they could?

i think it is per transaction but not 100% on that.

... and you are making $3M sound like monopoly money

i know i am but damn i'm thinking that during the isiah regime didn't dolan dish out $125M a year for player salaries??

crzymdups
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6/26/2010  10:11 AM
martin wrote:
Marv wrote:
martin wrote:
Marv wrote:
crzymdups wrote:@marv, no, it doesn't.

interesting. is there a limit on how much teams can spend for picks then?

$3M. I think that is the total amount of cash 2 different teams can exchange in trades, whether for picks or just encouragement.

and is that $3M the total aggregate amount allowed for any one team in a season? or is a team only allowed one such transaction?

the point i'm getting at naturally is if a rich team with open roster spots like ny was allowed to, why wouldn’t they buy up every early 2nd round pick they could?

i think it is per transaction but not 100% on that.

... and you are making $3M sound like monopoly money

supposedly it is per transaction.

chad ford and bill simmons were saying on a podcast that the Wizards may be getting $3M from the Bulls for Hinrich AND $3M for the Bulls for taking the 17th pick off their cap. $6M total. has to be two separate transactions. still seems super dirty. and ernie is still smiling that he killed the knicks.

¿ △ ?
Finestrg
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6/26/2010  10:27 AM    LAST EDITED: 6/26/2010  10:33 AM
Marv wrote:
martin wrote:
Marv wrote:
martin wrote:
Marv wrote:
crzymdups wrote:@marv, no, it doesn't.

interesting. is there a limit on how much teams can spend for picks then?

$3M. I think that is the total amount of cash 2 different teams can exchange in trades, whether for picks or just encouragement.

and is that $3M the total aggregate amount allowed for any one team in a season? or is a team only allowed one such transaction?

the point i'm getting at naturally is if a rich team with open roster spots like ny was allowed to, why wouldn’t they buy up every early 2nd round pick they could?

i think it is per transaction but not 100% on that.

... and you are making $3M sound like monopoly money

i know i am but damn i'm thinking that during the isiah regime didn't dolan dish out $125M a year for player salaries??

Good point Marv --- I'm with you my dude...I know where Martin's coming from though, $3M a pop for picks isn't chump change even for a multi-millionaire like Dolan I suppose, and you gotta couple that with the fact that they actually do plan on spending big on FA next week, but I still believe they should've went the extra mile and purchased another pick or two and left it up to Donnie to target another decent prospect or two with that money. I think allocating money for this draft should've been a much bigger priority -- esp. more second round picks like you suggest (remember we freed up another $7-8 million when Cuttino Mobley retired - that's why we didn't trade him -- so with the plan to spend big in free agency anyway, I would've hoped that at least some of that Mobley money could've been used on the draft. Wasn't the case so I'll move on..). 2nd rounders cost less money than 1s (instead of $3M a pop, you're looking at $1-1.5M -- we purchased 44 from Milwaukee for $1M I believe) AND supposedly they don't impact the cap the way 1st rounders would've have. Doesn't matter I guess because they wouldn't have targeted the right guys with extra picks anyway -- Rautins and Fields should not have been our selections at 38/39. Bottom line. We reached big-time. They're Knicks now and I'll be routing for each guy (Fields actually does look intriguing the more & more I look at some video) but those obviously aren't the guys you take there ...And now to add insult to injury we actually appear to be reaching in the summer league as well if you can believe that -- with all the good undrafted & low-end FA talent out there staring you in the face, the 1st guy they decide to bring in for summer ball is Michael Washington? I don't get it..
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