Mo Williams looked pretty good and Jameer Nelson looked pretty good next to Hedo, etc. TD would be more than solid next to playmakers/creaters like LBJ/Wade/Joe Johnson.

TD is a point that doesn't need the ball in his hands to be effective--that's why

iSergio wrote:The other day, he said he would rather have Earl Barron over Chris Dudley and now Chris Duhon over Toney Douglas. WTH?

Douglas has PG skills. He ran the pick-and-roll very well, he can drive and kick and pass the ball into the post. I didn't see this "undersized SG, combo guard, no PG skills" garbage. I saw a young PG who just needs experience.

and +1 on what woodman said right after

iSergio wrote:The other day, he said he would rather have Earl Barron over Chris Dudley and now Chris Duhon over Toney Douglas. WTH?

Douglas has PG skills. He ran the pick-and-roll very well, he can drive and kick and pass the ball into the post. I didn't see this "undersized SG, combo guard, no PG skills" garbage. I saw a young PG who just needs experience.

Duhon ran offense better and MDA said it so many times, he's offense may have been putrid, and his defense was nothing to desire, but he ran the offfense accordingly for the most part, like a pg, not a combo...DUHON is better at running the offense then TD...

I gave TD praise's for his abilty to do certain things other then running an offense .

If you read my post, i never said Duhon was a better over all player.

knicks1248 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Make Douglas the starter. This would be a last resort if the Knicks can’t find sign-and-trade partners and get priced out of the shallow free agent market at the position. Douglas offers a defensive-minded skill set with a smart shooting game but he lacks the passing repertoire necessary to step into a full-time role as a ball distributor.

This statement came from a ESPN article

This statement came from his coach:

"..."I can't say enough about Toney Douglas. Toney is the best defensive guard I have ever coached in my whole coaching career and to be our leading scorer, to be the guy who makes the shots when the game is on the line. I think one thing that separates Toney from a lot of people is that he's taken a team with six first-year players that was picked to finish somewhere near the bottom of the league, and he has led them into a very competitive team. You have to give him a lot of credit for that. Not only does he defend, not only is he our leading scorer, but the intangible of having a person out there with the character, the will and desire and the ability to communicate with six first-year players and bring them together during some tough times and competing a very high level in a very tough conference says a lot about his character and the kind of person he is. I hope that people recognize that. There are a lot of good players in our league and they're having good years, but I think Toney's contribution to our league and I know to our team has been a cut above what I've witnessed in a long, long time," said Florida State head coach Leonard Hamilton during his senior season."

Now what prompted the bump? Hamilton coached another former Knick. His name was John Starks. Only for his senior year in college.

i'm not writing him off as a point guard candidate by any means.

TD is young and learning the position so saying he could be Billups in a few years is fair. Billups isn't a pass first pg lets make that clear though. I'd even compare TD to Terrell Brandon. Bottom line TD is a good player but is not a pg now....by the end of his contract we'll all know for sure

Seriously, there's a lot to like about the guy. Even if never becomes a great playmaker, he's already good enough at enough other things to be a rotation guy on a good team. I really like his on ball defense, I like his attitude and approach, and I'm betting he'll improve a lot over the next 2 or 3 years. If he never becomes a legit starting 1 on offense, he'd be a great guy to pair with a taller, slower PG and have Toney cover the opposition's 1 and our PG cover their 2.

EnySpree wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

EnySpree wrote:A point guard that doesn't need the ball to be effective is not a pg.....you guys are killing me in this thread.

TD is young and learning the position so saying he could be Billups in a few years is fair. Billups isn't a pass first pg lets make that clear though. I'd even compare TD to Terrell Brandon. Bottom line TD is a good player but is not a pg now....by the end of his contract we'll all know for sure

TD not being a classic PG doesn't really affect the Knicks negatively I think as long as he's on the floor with someone who can fill the role of running the offense/creating for teamates no?

that would make him not a point guard. I saw Derek Fisher mentioned. Derek Fisher is not a point guard. The dude still is incredibly smart and clutch....he's not a pg but doesn't need to be anyway cuz the Lakers have Kobe and run the triangle which doesn't need a traditional pg.

Anyway, TD is a way more under control version of Nate Robinson. That's a great thing. In due time we'll see if he can be something else.being Felton's backup is where he should be right now.

Agreed. It would appear that MDA's system needs a Steve Nash type to orchestrate the attack and be a traditional PG.

We both see that TD is currently not that. It seems we also agree that doesn't necessarily mean he's not a useful player.

All I know is I'm really excited to see what these guys can do over this season and this is the best I've felt going into a season in a loooooooong time.

nixluva wrote:MDA's system BENEFITS from having a pure point, but what is often overlooked is that you want to have passing skills all over the place as well. One big plus for Lee was his good passing from his position. It will be missed, but overall what you want is more than just a great passing PG, but other positions being able to contribute to the passing. This team was pretty good at getting assists despite not having a really great passing PG. We still avg'd 21.6 assists a game. Clearly this offense was designed to work with or without a great passing PG. What we can't survive is a PG that can't shoot nor drive and finish effectively. This is where Duhon killed us. Yeah we need a PG that can get us into our sets, but he doesn't have to be the one to actually get the assist in order to be doing a great job. This is why TD was doing well despite not actually getting the assist.

Nash is basically going against the tenants of the system. He holds the ball much longer at times than the plays call for. He can get away with this because he's a great decision maker. Far better than anyone else on the team, but you don't want just any PG trying to be Nash. Felton won't be called upon to hold the ball as much as Nash. Nash distorts the understanding of what the system is about. He can freelance a lot more but that isn't what the plays call for and we shouldn't expect that Felton or TD will have to develop into that kind of player in order to be successful here.

As good as Nash is as a distributor...the man will never be John Starks on defense. The sum of the overall game matter in the context of wins. Your point about ball movement noted reduces the need for a distributor. Especially when your point knocks down the open shot the floor will be more open for him to make passes. It's a balance....and a team game.

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:TD is not a legit pg by any stretch, he does not know how to run a team, and he's not even a back up..the only thing he can do at the pg position is defend it.

Why do some of you think that he can start at pg for MDA, he's not even better then chris duhon.
The kid can score and defend, please do not consider him a fall back option at the point, because your sadly mistaken.

We get caught up in the fact that he can knock down some three's, drive the lane, and defend aggressively and think he's the answer. Why do you think mike left the kid on the bench, he sucks at running the team for more then 2 possesions

Yes he's fast and can finish, but that doesn't make him a pg, i would give this guy up in a heart beat for collison, bayless, flynn, lawson, and the ( for got his name) back up on the suns.

He hasn't shown me anything to suggest he can start

have you watched Bayless try to run an offense? Flynn looked clueless. Collison and Lawson looked great in a small sampling.

If you have noticed in almost every one of my "what to do next year" discussions one of my #1 objectives is to get a playmaker here so Douglas CAN start at PG. A guy like Lebron, Mike Miller, Joe Johnson or Shawn Livinston are guys who would start at the 2 but could also be primary ball handlers, allowing Douglas to play off the ball more and defens opposing PGs.

Douglas did a couple of things that were very note worthy:
He never turned the ball over. He was not a great floor general by any means but he was never careless with the ball. He averaged 1 TO a game in 20 minutes. Thats impressive

He defended opposing PGs. He showed he could keep a body on the big ones and keep the quick ones out of the lane. Something we desperatly need.

He can really score.

I dont know how good or what kind of player he becomes but I will go to war with Toney Douglas any day. Dude is a smart tough player. He's got a good future in the NBA

Thats the point im getting at, he does everything well except run a team. A pg that doesn't avg at least 5 ast is useless at the positon. JJ, wade, LBJ will avg 6+ ast playing off the ball in this system alone, hell....david lee avg more ast then TD

HE'S A FREAKIN ROOKIE!!!! HE PLAYED 50 GAMES.

Give me a break. If you actually watched him play you would see there is very good PG potential. He's got a great handle, has decent floor vision, dribbles with his head up and is a bigtime defender and shooter.

Not every PG has to be Jason Kidd to be a good player. Geeze. Kid's played 50 games in the NBA. I thought he looked great and once they gave him big minutes he put up good numbers

22 games in March/April: 12.5 points, 3.5 assists, shot 45% and 1.2 TOs.
Dude shot the ball very well and had a 3:1 assist to TO and was great on defense, but you see no potential as a starter.

WTF is the world coming to??????

While I do agree with most of what you said about TD being a rookie and still developing I disagree with the JKidd comment. JKidd was a PURE PG. And everyone who plays that position SHOULD strive to play like him. You say wtf is the world coming too? Lol, Well in the basketball world, we are at a place where PURE PG's are scarce. Nowadays we have these hybrid PG's like Rose and even TD. I agree with the OP..TD is not a legit pg. And while I think he can get better, He will never be able to provide to his teammates at that position what a true PG can.